Knights of R'hllor?

[Azor Ahoy!]

Has no one found it strange that even the most fervent of Melisandre's followers who are knights are called 'ser'?

After all, only followers of the Seven can be knights, and the Seven are false gods according to the Lord of Light faith, therefore shouldn't people like Ser Godry Farring or Ser Justin Massey drop their 'sers' since they were given to them in the name of 'false gods'?

[thecryptile]

Until you mentioned it, I'd never thought about it. You are right though! In Westeros, Knighthood is inextricably linked with the Faith of the Seven. That's why you don't see followers of the Old Gods take Knightly vows. Knightly vows conflict with the Red God's insistence that all the other gods are manifestations of the Great Other.

My thought is that the Rhollorist Knights are keeping the title as a mark of social distinction, divorced from its religious implications. If someone showed them this post, they'd drop those titles in a heartbeat.

[Kienn]

Followers of the Old Gods have become knights actually. The Old Gods followers don't seem to be as fanatically against other religions as R'hllorists are though, so you have a point.

[Fightbringer]

i'd guess its just practicality, r'hllor would probably get less followers if they banned knights, plus i think they sympathise with the values of knighthood in their religion more than the old gods do (who dont really have any kind of teachings like the red god does) in the show (cant remember if this in the book) melisandre says she's a knight herself of sorts because she's a champion of life

[Mad Monkey]

It would be trivial for Melisandre to designate that knights could be reborn in the Lord of Light. You do raise a good point though but it's one that they can deflect if it suits their needs.

[Groat]

A lot of the Queens Men will say the phrase "gods" sometimes, when there is only supposed to be 1 god now.

[RenlyIsNotRight]

There are a few knights in the North who are stated or implied to be followers of the Old Gods as well - Rodrik Cassel, Ser Bartimus in White Harbor, Helman Tallhart, Kyle Condon. We don't really know one way or the other what Gods Jorah followed, but he was knighted for participating in a tourney in the South. I think personal faith didn't necessarily have much to do with it.

Also, a lot of the Queen's Men have converted to R'hllor only within the last few years.

[Leif]

I think personal faith didn't necessarily have much to do with it.

Considering the fact that Gregor Clegane was knighted, I'm inclined to agree with that.

[Corvo Attano]

You can be knighted on the battlefield, in which case the guy knighting you isn't going to stop and say "wait a minute, do you follow the seven?"..

as RenlyIsNotRight pointed out, we have Ser Bartimus in White Harbour (who actually states that he follows the Old Gods), Ser Kyle Condon, Ser Mallador Locke, Ser Rodrik Cassel, Ser Jorah Mormont, Ser Helman Tallhart, Ser Wynton Stout, etc.. there are plenty of Northern knights who don't all follow the seven.

[Gurkhal]

Knighthood is a very important part of Andal culture so I wouldn't be suprised if it would survive a change in religion as well.

[Eddie Blockfetcher]

I dont think that knighthood is that closely associated with the Seven, more of a general concept, least of all the title of Ser.

[Fire Eater]

I guess Stannis would have knights be anointed by the Red Faith instead of the Faith.

[mindchap]

I think a good bit of them are carry over knights. I don't think Mel has had a stranglehold on the Seven for all that long. She just convinced them to burn the seven a few years ago.

[tormund's beard]

I guess Stannis would have knights be anointed by the Red Faith instead of the Faith.

this

/closed.

[Blede]

Knighthood is part of Andal culture, which was basically fundamentalist at the start (hence the connection between chivalry and the Faith of the Seven) but evolved to the point where the only remnant of the Faith in chivalry is the wording of the knighthood ceremony (in the name of the Warrior I charge you to be brave etc.). That's why we have knights among Old Gods worshippers (Jorah Mormont, Rodrik Cassel and others), Drowned God worshippers (Harras "the Knight" Harlaw) and other Essosi faiths, possibly R'hllor as well (the squires Ser Barristan is training in Meereen, I seriously doubt he forces the Faith on them as they train). They are so few because chivalry is not part of Northern or Ironborn culture: Northern or Ironborn nobles would never think of sending their sons to squire for someone, regardless of their faith (Bran, who wanted to become a Kingsguard, is an exception because he was exposed to southron culture via his mother). For the same reason I think there would still be new R'hllorist knights, since it is part of Andal culture (Devan Seaworth didn't stop being a squire when he converted), they wil probably just change the wording of the ceremony (or not).