Reviewing Season 3

[I hate Dorn]

Your mathematical gymnastics are impressive, they really are! And what exactly is a failed reaction anyway? Many people simply don't visibly react all that much if at all, irrespective of their true feelings. Is it probable that some were turned off not by the lack of quality, but by massacre of the good guys? Is their reaction also indicative of failure?

And you ask why "book purists" are looked down upon by so many. You are willing to go to all this length, calculating silly differential equations and a relative mass of the Higgs boson because... why exactly? Because "4,000 missing videos" tell us that audiences were put off by how D&D butchered Red Wedding? Your train of thought is something to behold, it truly is.

Truly, you have a dizzying intellect

Wait 'til I get GOING

[Le Cygne]

As an example, I'm astounded how much praise Danny's story got this year. Yes - there are two kick ass scenes, but not a single moment all season is payed to her inner life (what is she thinking? what does she care about? what does she fear, etc). In the hands of a great writer, some background on her distaste for slavery or her empathy with the slave classes would be provided. It would be contrasted against her desire to return home and take the Iron Throne. Not because its in the book (it actually is, but regardless), but because it serves to explain what will be driving her actions throughout the season. Why she is willing to takes the risks and time to do the things that she chooses to do. That is the kind of material that makes a character compelling, but moreover it helps elevate a series from good to great, or even mediocre to good.

My #1 complaint by a landslide. The characters act and react, but they never reflect.

My favorite scene of the season was Jaime and Brienne saying goodbye (pretty sure GRRM wrote it). Everything going on inside was right there, on their faces, and in the words they said, and didn't say.

This is not something rare and unattainable we're asking to see.

I completely agree with this, and the worst part is that it could have easily been fixed by including excellent dialogue that was present in the books:

This. It's right there, again and again. So many missed opportunities.

[Miodrag]

@Mr Fixit

Actually, doing the math wasn't the problem at all, since I'm good at math for like forever, and these are all very simple mathematical operations. Going through Youtube was more of a trouble, and it took no more than few minutes. So, my gymnastics, or whatever that was, aren't impressive at all. I just asked myself at one point how many "failed" reaction videos there is, since there has to be some amount of them. And by "failed" i mean a video of a reaction that is totally flat. You know, John was filming Jane while she was watching RW, but Jane wasn't impressed by the scene at all. And all those explanations you offered do sound legit. I can think of yet more of them, but I wouldn't want to take your job away from you.

And if all this makes book purists look bad, I honestly apologize to book purists. But, the reaction to RW is always looked on and measured through the lens of those reaction videos. I just tried to give an alternative perspective.

@Khal-a-bunga

First of all, you are a traitor to your kind. The other day I read your personal outline of Season 4 big events, and found nothing but book-purism there. Shameless stuff, if you ask me.

About Ned's death, I actually thought of it. Can't find some strong counter argument. Yeah, the numbers were lower back then, but the ratio would still be even lower than in the case of RW. Maybe, just maybe, people got the idea to film a reaction of unsullied viewers only after they saw those videos of reactions to Ned's death. But, that is a wild guess.

What I'm pretty certain of, however, is that media reaction to Ned's death was much more natural and spontaneous than with RW. Even in my country (and Mr Fixit can confirm this cause he lives in Serbia too) RW was the news: one of the biggest daily newspapers wrote about it for two days, going so far as to offer on it's site the 7-steps "course" video for recovering from RW. And all that would be understandable, except for these two facts: GoT isn't big in Serbia, just as cable still isn't, so that was some pretty big exaggeration, and, the video I'm talking about clearly wasn't prepared in Serbia, but in a regional HBO center that resides in neighboring Croatia - because of strong similarities between our languages, a number of adds and other promotional materials of all kinds (not just for GoT or TV, but in general, for everything) is done in a regional center of the enterprise in question and then used all around the region, but we who live in the region can easily determine where it was made (actually, through my colleagues, I do know all the promotional stuff for GoT comes from the regional center, but what I said above can be easily verified by anyone who knows the languages).

And don't get me wrong, nobody's to blame there for anything. HBO would be all kinds of stupid not to use the moment they know is coming, and since they are very open and cooperative to the media, of course they're going to involve the media in it, and the media also benefits from everything. Win-win situation for everyone involved. What I wanted to say is that the reaction in the media is much less spontaneous than people think. Which also proves nothing one way or another. Maybe the reaction would be just as strong even if nothing was prepared in advance. Maybe the spontaneous reactions were even stronger, but weren't visible because of all the prepared stuff.

That's why the only true measure of public reaction may be those videos on Youtube. And I simply thought of those that might be missing. Even if I'm wrong, I can't see what possible damage I'v done by posting a speculation on a thread. (However, now I'm pretty certain I've done something wrong, cause your reply was actually polite, and that didn't happen for quite a while.)

[pleonasm]

I agree, I've come to the opinion that either because there is SO much material or because D&D are kind of Baz Lurhman type guys, that the show really consists of a string of scenes...that generally hit the high points of the series or serve other purposes for HBO....and that the characterization that we do get comes via the actors and their performances, not from the plotting or the writing. That is why Charles Dance can infuse Tywin Lannister with all kinds of emotions and regal bearing but Oona Chaplin, who can't master a reaction shot to save her life, leaves the character vapid and unbelievable. And same with pacing, I can't tell if its the density of the material or if its the show itself. Defintely some of the way they distribute the storyline throws things off.

I agree. With regards to the pacing issues, I think it ultimately lies in how the scripts are written and how the episodes are edited vs. the density of the material. This is really geeky, but I actually did a comparison and found an episode of The Wire (a pretty dense series) had twice as many scenes (60 vs. 30) than an episode of GOT. Both episodes were about the same length. So an average GOT scene is twice the length of a Wire scene. This isn't necessarily an issue, but if the scene isn't written well or is repetitive, its going to feel longer than it should. It also appears to be a conscious choice to have not only less scenes, but also less back and forth cuts between two or more different scenes. I am guessing this is to minimize the confusion to the audience?

In defense of the showrunners, I do feel the pacing has gotten better from season 2 and they seem more willing to write shorter scenes and cut back and forth more often. I just wish they do it even more often.

So you started watching a show, fully aware that is was going to cover a couple dozen main characters and like 60 other side characters, and your biggest criticism is that there isn't enough character development?

Of COURSE there isn't

They can't give anyone that much attention in a show like this. It's not about Dexter, or Don Draper or Tony Soprano. It's about a crapload of people, spread out all over the globe. You KNEW that going in

If I could find some logic in your criticisms, I would say so. But I just can't

I get that's its not Mad Men, but If arguably the 3rd or 4th lead (Danny) of a television series can't get a single character development scene in a season, I think there is a problem! I'm not asking for a Danny episode or a 20 minute long Danny dream sequence, but just a couple of scenes reinforcing Danny's sympathies with the slave class and how she has to reconcile that with her desire to go home and claim the throne. Just like Jon needed a scene or two where he begins to develop a level of comfort and understanding of the Wildling culture - which ultimately informs a major decision he will make down the road regarding the Wildlings.

I think Dany's drive to free the slaves was appropriately set up in the first season, considering she was tantamount to a slave herself. I don't think the audience is so short-sighted that they have forgotten this. Didn't she also stand up to Khal Drogo's bloodrider (can't recall his name) about the treatment of the Lhazareen? What about her dialogue at the end of the first season, where she essentially frees her remaining Dothraki followers, giving them the choice to stay or leave? And when (or, if, rather) you watch the third season again, pay attention to her reactions, not just the dialogue. Acting is just as important as dialogue in a television show, so it's not something that can be discounted when discussing these things. I'm not sure if I read about anyone being confused as to why Dany did what she did in season three, actually, so this particular issue may be your own.

I get that Danny has demonstrated empathy before, but that was 2 years ago (in real time) and it needs to be reinforced as every strategic decision she makes this season (and presumably next) is informed by her world view. Instead the producers went with a universal short hand (Slavery = Bad, Danny = Hero) and while that does work at a superficial level, what is lacking in some insight into Danny's inner life. She has changed remarkably from her days as the bride of a Khal to this maturing Queen/Mother of Dragons/etc/etc.... and I want to see more of who she is than just a flat character who can negotiate with her enemies and command her underlings.

[Jon of the Dead]

I know I said this a few pages back, but for the life of me I still can't understand why people say the RW was a failure in the show.

Isn't it shocking in the book? Yes. "Shocking" is a word I've seen book readers use to describe the RW at least a million times.

Wasn't there a feeling of dread in the show? Hell, yes. As soon as the Freys closed the doors, my heart started beating like crazy. I've seen non-book readers saying the same thing on many discussion boards of the show; the feeling of dread was certainly there.

So why are people complaining exactly? Because the drums weren't loud and because Cat was smiling? Do you really think the majority of non-readers actually thought nothing bad was going to happen? Everybody knew something bad was going to happen, the sense of dread was there, just like in the books.

The direction and the staging was clumsy, that I can't deny. But the complains about the shock and lack of dread I really don't get.

[Pinkie Baelish]

Given that there are only about 5 reaction videos for this, I think we can conclude that the season 4 finale of Breaking Bad was a total failure.

[Jon of the Dead]

Given that there are only about 5 reaction videos for this, I think we can conclude that the season 4 finale of Breaking Bad was a total failure.

:lmao: You win the thread, ser

[Khal-a-bunga]

@ pleonasm

I get what you're saying, but I think you're giving the audience too little credit in terms of remembering details and piecing things together based on previously established information. I also think we'll get quite a bit of what you're asking for next season. Remember, third season out of a proposed eight. Her crusade in Essos isn't done yet (and the repercussions - which will provide a logical reason for discourse on the subject among characters - haven't even started).

More importantly, however, you (and I'm not trying to single you out, as this is a fairly common thing around here) seem to pick and choose what to remember from the show itself in order to support your stance...

As an example, I'm astounded how much praise Danny's story got this year. Yes - there are two kick ass scenes, but not a single moment all season is payed to her inner life (what is she thinking? what does she care about? what does she fear, etc). In the hands of a great writer, some background on her distaste for slavery or her empathy with the slave classes would be provided. It would be contrasted against her desire to return home and take the Iron Throne.

So, in addition to everything from the first two seasons, which (as you've already agreed) has demonstrated both her disdain for slavery and her empathy for the oppressed...

Episode 1: Valar Dohaeris

Jorah: They're growing fast.

Dany: Not fast enough. I can't wait that long. I need an army.

Jorah: We'll be in Astapor by nightfall. Some say the Unsullied are the greatest soldiers in the world.

Dany: The greatest slave soldiers in the world. A distinction that means a good deal to some people.

Jorah: Do those people have any better ideas about how to put you on the iron throne?

*

Dany: Eight thousand dead babies.

Jorah: The Unsullied are a means to an end.

Dany: Once I own them, these men -

Jorah: They're not men. Not anymore.

Dany: Once I own an army of slaves, what will I be?

Jorah: Do you think these slaves will have better lives serving Kraznys and men like him, or serving you? You'll be fair to them. You won't mutilate them to make a point. You won't order them to murder babies. You'll see they're properly fed, sheltered. A great injustice has been done to them. Closing your eyes will not undo it.

And there are several other instances where her relationship with and to slavery is explored in the third episode, the fourth episode, the fifth episode...

Episode 7: The Bear and the Maiden Fair

Dany: I don't want half my army killed before I've crossed the narrow sea.

Jorah: We don't need Yunkai, khaleesi. Taking this city will not bring you any closer to Westeros or the iron throne.

Dany: How many slaves are there in Yunkai?

Jorah: Two hundred thousand, if not more.

Dany: Then we have two hundred thousand reasons to take the city.

I also think the "universal shorthand" of slavery being a bad thing is absolutely correct. But that doesn't stop things from escalating rather quickly once she realizes that the economy of Essos relies on the slave trade, which will surely be further developed in the coming seasons.

Beyond that, what else are you looking for? A moment where Dany soliloquizes about her history with slavery, and why she can't stand to see this injustice? A narration that explains her reasoning? I think the show has made it abundantly clear, not just with the dialogue, but through her actions (and, by extension, Emilia Clarke's performance). More importantly, the door isn't closed on this plot line. In fact, it's still wide open. If her content from the books are any indication, this story line will continue on for at least another two seasons.

[Le Cygne]

Look at the example Patrick Stormborn cited, look at all GRRM accomplished with that short passage. Dany makes it very personal there. And with only a few lines lets us know all of this: that she personally knows what these people are feeling, how she felt about the experience of being sold, that she felt betrayed by her brother, that she loved Drogo very much (she calls him her sun-and-stars, that speaks volumes), that she's thinking about all of this, most likely very often, and that she will never forget, and look at where she ends, talking about fear. This gives us a window into who Dany really is, and why she does the things she does, that we quite simply are not getting from the show (and no, don't cite more inane examples, look at the one below and those pale in comparison). And she's not the only one. Dany remembered Drogo often in the books, she was very lonely after he died, and that gives us some insight into her feelings for Daario, as well. Some other examples, Arya remembered Jon Snow, and Sansa remembered the Hound, they each brought up these two other characters a dozen times in their POVs after they were gone. There are always people the characters can voice their thoughts to, as well as other ways to show what a person is thinking. Give us some idea what makes the characters tick, and if they want to change the story, give them something else that makes them tick (and if they must do that, make it equally compelling, which they haven't done), but show us what it is. Then when they do something, we know why, without being told. Also, these things serve to tie the story together, so what happened before has meaning. Otherwise, narrative dead ends are dangling all over the place. Viewers haven't forgotten, so they are confused. Did it mean something, or not? If so, make it clear in some way. If not, why did they show it at all? Character motivation is very important. This is basic screenwriting.

“Better to come a beggar than a slaver," Arstan said.

“There speaks one who has been neither." Dany’s nostrils flared. “Do you know what it is like to be sold, squire? I do. My brother sold me to Khal Drogo for the promise of a golden crown. Well, Drogo crowned him in gold, though not as he had wished, and I… my sun-and-stars made a queen of me, but if he had been a different man, it might have been much otherwise. Do you think I have forgotten how it felt to be afraid?”

[Miodrag]

Given that there are only about 5 reaction videos for this, I think we can conclude that the season 4 finale of Breaking Bad was a total failure.

Not to disagree with 'Jon of the Dead' about you winning the thread, nor to try take your win away from you, but, in a strict logical sense, it's not comparable to RW situation. It's not like quarter of the audience knew Gus is going to die the way he died, and therefore trapped fellow viewers into a candid recording session. RW is, to the best of my knowledge, totally and completely unique situation in the history of television, because, with the exception of Ned's death, never before these three factors did combine in a single event: 1) the extraordinary shocking nature of the scene; 2) the significant part of the audience (I estimated at 10 percent, though, truth be told, it certainly was much higher, but never mind) knew about it in advance; 3) the vast majority of "sullied" viewers is more than equipped to prepare and execute the recording.

About Ned's death: as I said to Khal-a-bunga, I have no explanation, other than the fact that it clearly captured everyone off-guard, HBO included. When Ned died, not a single 'rehabilitation video' was prepared in advance by HBO regional headquarters. This time around, it was. And if HBO was much better prepared for RW than for Ned's death, maybe the sullied viewers were also. Maybe this isn't much of an explanation, but even the example you brought up maybe shows how much Ned's death changed the things in this regard: when I searched 'You tube' for "Breaking Bad reaction", only videos for seasons 4 and 5 popped up (in the first couple of pages, at least). It's not like earlier seasons of BB didn't have shocking moments, cause they had, but only seasons 4&5 premiered after Ned's death.

And, I don't know why some people here think it's so inappropriate to consider 'failed' videos, as I called them. It can't be that everyone who planned to record fellow viewers' reactions got exactly the desired reactions. There had to be some disappointing outcomes. Actually, the very idea came when I listened Mo Ryan - Allan Sepinwall podcast about the Season 3; she was so disappointed in his lukewarm reaction to RW; had she tried to record him while he was watching RW, that's the kind of videos I'm talking about. All I did was tried to speculate how many of those there could've been. I mean, with all factors included, and with such a strong ratings and such a vast viewership, I don't think 500 reaction videos on 'You tube' is that impressive. The sheer number of 500 certainly looks impressive on it's own, but within a context of Red Fucking Wedding - something that, on paper at least, is pretty much unparalleled - that number maybe just isn't that big as it can appear at first. Imagine the following, highly hypothetical situation: all's the same as far as numbers and the collective momentum go, only it's not TV that RW is experienced through, but the novels. Somehow, 5 million readers is about to read the RW chapter at exactly the same moment, but for 500.000 of them it's a reread and not the first read. Do you think 'only' 500 reaction videos would end up uploaded on 'You tube'? I'd say the number would be much, much higher.

And look, even if I'm right about the numbers, it really doesn't have to be the sign of the scene's failure. There could very well be the simple and highly probable explanation behind everything: maybe too many viewers were spoiled about RW, either by reading the books in the meantime, or by any other way (and possibilities for that are literally countless in the internet era we live in). In that case, my entire calculation is completely irrelevant, cause not that many people would have the reason to record the reaction of other viewers in the first place. If that was the case, RW couldn't help but be underwhelming as a surprise. What it would suggest, however, is that the media hype was not spontaneous and natural, like after Ned's death, but orchestrated, to an extent at least. The same thing I said from the beginning. It's not a 'conspiracy theory', but the fact of life. Once again: HBO would be idiots not to use RW for propaganda purposes. Every other company in the world would do the same. I'd do the same. I'm sure you'd do the same. No foul play there. Only, some posters are taking all the hype as an undeniable proof of how great the RW scene and Season 3 were, while I can't help but disagree. Maybe S3 and RW were great indeed, but the hype is not exactly the proof.

P.S. Gus' death scene, ingeniously designed and executed until the very end, was quite damaged by far-over-the-top gore in it's final shot.

[Cas Stark]

There are easy things they could have done to provide more depth.

Just as one example, she is constantly draping herself in the lion pelt that Drogo gave her...it gives her a sense of safety, reminds her of him, etc. It would have been EASY to simply slip that in as a visual cue...by having Drogo give it to her in Season 1 and have us see her w/it in subsequent seasons with a little dreamy look in her eye, no need for her to go into a monologue. The same thing they did with the doll that Eddard gave Sansa that we see here and there to remind us that she remembers her father.

[Khal Porno]

I would never do something so silly and pointless as make a reaction video on youtube in response to something I enjoyed, purely for its own sake. If you do, that's great. How anyone could consider the ratio of youtube reaction videos to viewers of the original material a measure of quality is unfathomable to me.

[Le Cygne]

Another one, when Arya told Gendry who she really is, from that point on, she could have mentioned Jon Snow giving her Needle. For me, Needle is like a character, that was what was so great. She even talked to it when she hid it in Braavos. And she couldn't part with it because it was Jon Snow's smile. She remembered Jon so often, and he remembered her, this tied into another future plot (Bring her home, Mance, and home is where he is). Depth to Arya, depth to Jon, motivation, resonance with prior scenes, ... So many things.

[Miodrag]

How anyone could consider the ratio of youtube reaction videos to viewers of the original material a measure of quality is unfathomable to me.

How anyone could read my posts and think I implied the said ratio is a measure of quality - especially because, as a matter of fact, I myself stated the opposite - is unfathomable to me.

I would never do something so silly and pointless as make a reaction video on youtube in response to something I enjoyed, purely for its own sake. If you do, that's great.

I don't and I wouldn't. But, there clearly is a lot of people who do it all the time, or else 'You tube' would never be nearly as popular as it is. You're entitled to find it silly and pointless, of course. For me, I'm just not interested is all. However, those reaction videos were and are constantly used as some sort of evidence or at least strong indication of the success of GoT as a TV show. I'm not claiming 'my' ratio thing proves anything, but here you are misunderstanding me and calling my action unfathomable. I'd find your reply here less hypocritical if you can provide any post of yours in which you 'reproached' them who are praising GoT on the basis of RW reaction videos, because that's exactly the type of unfathomable thinking you described, only in the opposite direction.

[PatrickStormborn]

Just curious - what were the ratings like for the GoT finale? If the Red Wedding was successful, surely the finale would have been the most watched (first-time viewing) episode so far.

[Miodrag]

Just curious - what were the ratings like for the GoT finale? If the Red Wedding was successful, surely the finale would have been the most watched (first-time viewing) episode so far.

The tiniest drop possible. Not enough to be conclusive, of course, but the drop it was.

[Pinkie Baelish]

Just curious - what were the ratings like for the GoT finale? If the Red Wedding was successful, surely the finale would have been the most watched (first-time viewing) episode so far.

3x10 had an increase of 1.73 million viewers from 3x09, but The Climb was still the most watched episode, with 5.5 mil compared to Mhysa's 5.393. I'll admit, I was a bit surprised by the viewing figures as well, after seeing the explosion in social media and the Internet after the Red Wedding. I can't really explain why there wasn't a larger increase, but the Red Wedding was nothing if not successful IMO, given that nobody would shut up about it for a while. The episode also got the best reviews off the season, so it got it's fair share of critical praise as well.

I got my info off Wikipedia, incase anybody's wondering.

[Miodrag]

3x10 had an increase of 1.73 million viewers from 3x09, but The Climb was still the most watched episode, with 5.5 mil compared to Mhysa's 5.393. I'll admit, I was a bit surprised by the viewing figures as well, after seeing the explosion in social media and the Internet after the Red Wedding. I can't really explain why there wasn't a larger increase, but the Red Wedding was nothing if not successful IMO, given that nobody would shut up about it for a while. The episode also got the best reviews off the season, so it got it's fair share of critical praise as well.

I got my info off Wikipedia, incase anybody's wondering.

Sorry for the confusion in my previous post, by 'tiniest drop possible' I thought of the ratings for the finale (5.4 millions) compared to the record ratings of 5.5 millions (for "The Climb"), because Patrick mentioned the most watched episode. Thanks for the correction, Pinkie.

[PatrickStormborn]

Thank you both for answering. :)

3x10 had an increase of 1.73 million viewers from 3x09, but The Climb was still the most watched episode, with 5.5 mil compared to Mhysa's 5.393. I'll admit, I was a bit surprised by the viewing figures as well, after seeing the explosion in social media and the Internet after the Red Wedding. I can't really explain why there wasn't a larger increase, but the Red Wedding was nothing if not successful IMO, given that nobody would shut up about it for a while. The episode also got the best reviews off the season, so it got it's fair share of critical praise as well.

I got my info off Wikipedia, incase anybody's wondering.

I agree that it was successful... in creating a shocked atmosphere around the show. But like NotYourSir suggested, it felt quite forced IMO. HBO really appeared to be pushing the Red Wedding as a shocking twist with the deaths of three main cast members, and it did generate some buzz. But clearly there was a problem if it didn't even manage to make the following episode the highest viewed of the season.

I'll repeat what I've believed since the episode aired: the show's Red Wedding had its desired impact (shock factor), but it didn't live up to its book counterpart and it did not have a true impact on the ratings, unlike Dany's sack of Astapor which increased hype around the show AND increased ratings. And this is for one reason in particular: they tried to maximise the Red Wedding's potential as a shocking event rather than presenting it as Catelyn Stark's tragedy and allowing it to be naturally shocking.

[boojam]

In any case, I'd agree that Game of Thrones is certainly not yet on the level of shows like Deadwood, Six Feet Under, The Wire, or The Sopranos, but it sits comfortably near the top of that second tier of television that also contains shows like Rome, OZ, Carnivàle, and Boardwalk Empire (to keep this conversation to HBO shows, exclusively). But Game of Thrones has also only completed three seasons, and it's expected to take eight seasons to tell the story through to completion. As time goes on, I'm sure the divergences from the source material will continue to pile up as the story moves forward, and some people will be fine with that, while others will proclaim that the show is a failure, as a result.

Boy I don't think of ROME as 'second tier'. I have never seen a visual media drama about ancient Rome like it.

It had wonderful production value and cast and screenplay.... plus they split the story between the Patrician history , we know, and the Back Streets of Rome Plebeian story , 'everyday life in ancient Rome', that nobody but nobody has ever done before , that I know of!

(The BBC I Claudius is a different kettle of fish and can't be comepared to ROME.... I am very curious about HBO's proposal to do a I Claudius , totally unbound by the stage. That would be interesting and expensive. But... HBO spent 200 million on the mini-series Pacific in recent years .... so....)