People who don't fully understand these books/the show

[The Mountain That Posts]

Thank the Seven for secondary characters, then.

This. srsly

[Summerqueen]

I actively try to dissuade some folks from watching and reading because I know they won't understand. My cousin talks about trying to find time to watch the show because it's popular and some of her friends like to talk about it. She hates being excluded. But not as much as I know she absolutely detests all SF&F genre shows/fiction. I think I will strangle her with my bare hands if she caves to her desire to be "in the know" and then takes a dump on the show/story. She already knows she won't like it. So...just don't watch it.

The last person I persuaded to read the books was my sister. She deplored all of the sexualized violence, of which there is much (Dothraki and Iron Born cultures, Harrenhal, Jeyne), as both upsetting and gross. I could see her point, though. The stuff is very unpleasant, and I wouldn't want to live there, either, if I couldn't get it out of my head. But we both think HBO's soft core porn aesthetic does the material a disservice. Sometimes it's difficult to take the show seriously in the face(?) of such spectacle. The show is often rather like a tabloid version of ASoIaF

[Florina Laufeyson]

Florina

We may not like that potential outcome, but it cannot be excluded as a possibility based on the premise of a "lack of understanding of the series". Martin may well intend for them to end up together, although I fervently hope it is not the case.

I like to think GRRM wouldnt write something that ridiculously contrived. Its highly questionable if those two will even be on the same side, let alone romantically involved.

[Lord Joker Of FunLand]

Still trying to get people to read the damn thing.

Finally got my wife to finish the first book after 2 years of me saying how awesome they are. lol

Slowly but surely doing the same thing with friends.

[Ser Edmure Tully]

I actively try to dissuade some folks from watching and reading because I know they won't understand. My cousin talks about trying to find time to watch the show because it's popular and some of her friends like to talk about it. She hates being excluded. But not as much as I know she absolutely detests all SF&F genre shows/fiction. I think I will strangle her with my bare hands if she caves to her desire to be "in the know" and then takes a dump on the show/story. She already knows she won't like it. So...just don't watch it.

The last person I persuaded to read the books was my sister. She deplored all of the sexualized violence, of which there is much (Dothraki and Iron Born cultures, Harrenhal, Jeyne), as both upsetting and gross. I could see her point, though. The stuff is very unpleasant, and I wouldn't want to live there, either, if I couldn't get it out of my head. But we both think HBO's soft core porn aesthetic does the material a disservice. Sometimes it's difficult to take the show seriously in the face(?) of such spectacle. The show is often rather like a tabloid version of ASoIaF

I agree, but there are instances where the show absolutely shines as well, and for me, these far outweigh the bad. Nikolaj Coster-Waldau in the Harrenhal bath scene was incredible, Dinklage pretty much whenever, Charles Dance and his presence on screen is amazing.

But I do agree about the soft porn aesthetic sometimes becoming too much, such as the example I spoke about earlier.

The way I look at it is this

The soft core porn scenes draw in more viewers (the dumb ones who only watch for the tits) and thus gives HBO incentive to increase Game of Thrones budget, and renew seasons, which in turn allows us to be graced with the star turns of the various actors. Therefore I see the boob quota/soft porn aesthetic as a necessary evil, for the good of the realm show. Id rather have Game of Thrones with a soft-porn aesthetic than nothing at all!

[Errant Bard]

I like to think GRRM wouldnt write something that ridiculously contrived. Its highly questionable if those two will even be on the same side, let alone romantically involved.

The whole ASOIAF is contrived if you look at it with that level of abstraction. Jon did already get promoted general before he was 18, also given a magical pet and a magical sword, and is likely an hidden heir and the recipient of one prophecy or another about saving the world... I'm not sure why a romantic relation between the hidden heir and the token princess would feel any more contrived, in fact I think it fits the theme.

[Maegor the Cuddly]

The whole ASOIAF is contrived if you look at it with that level of abstraction. Jon did already get promoted general before he was 18, also given a magical pet and a magical sword, and is likely an hidden heir and the recipient of one prophecy or another about saving the world... I'm not sure why a romantic relation between the hidden heir and the token princess would feel any more contrived, in fact I think it fits the theme.

It really is true, though I'm still hoping he's going to be a deconstruction of your typical: "Lord Commander at 18 with a super-sword and magic pet" archetype, I mean, he's already been stabbed, possibly to death as a result of his actions as LC.

[Summerqueen]

The way I look at it is this

The soft core porn scenes draw in more viewers (the dumb ones who only watch for the tits) and thus gives HBO incentive to increase Game of Thrones budget, and renew seasons, which in turn allows us to be graced with the star turns of the various actors. Therefore I see the boob quota/soft porn aesthetic as a necessary evil, for the good of the realm show. Id rather have Game of Thrones with a soft-porn aesthetic than nothing at all!

Hm. I think the show is compelling enough to keep viewers without the spectacle. But I'm a fan. I can't imagine anyone tuning in just for "play with her arse" or the Dreadettes (great name for them mentioned earlier). I've never laughed at anything so unkindly in my life. :) and I hate to have to mock something I actually value most of the time. But maybe you are right and the material from the book couldn't carry the show alone.

[Ser Edmure Tully]

The whole ASOIAF is contrived if you look at it with that level of abstraction. Jon did already get promoted general before he was 18, also given a magical pet and a magical sword, and is likely an hidden heir and the recipient of one prophecy or another about saving the world... I'm not sure why a romantic relation between the hidden heir and the token princess would feel any more contrived, in fact I think it fits the theme.

The way Jon got promoted Lord Commander didnt seem that contrived to me. Especially in a universe where blood is valued so highly, and the alternative candidate is as big a fuckwit (pardon) as Lord Janos Slynt.

People say Jon is kinda contrived and a Gary Stu, I find this odd as he is pretty flawed. He quite resolutely puts a child in danger because he places a higher value on another child, and at the moment he rides for epic vengeance against his half brother's killers, he get shivved four times.

Also, while maintaining good policy in his command of the Night's Watch, he is a terrible communicator, especially to his senior subordinates, and for all his experience and apparent Gary Stu-ness, still makes mistakes which have real consequences, such as sending most of his key allies away (Grenn, Edd, Iron Emmett, Pyp).

I know everyone thinks these screw-ups wont result in his death, but they may result in the dissolution of the Night's Watch after the Ides of Marsh, which is still a pretty severe consequence in my books.

[Ser Edmure Tully]

Hm. I think the show is compelling enough to keep viewers without the spectacle. But I'm a fan. I can't imagine anyone tuning in just for "play with her arse" or the Dreadettes (great name for them mentioned earlier). I've never laughed at anything so unkindly in my life. :) and I hate to have to mock something I actually value most of the time. But maybe you are right and the material from the book couldn't carry the show alone.

It could carry the show alone for you, for me and no doubt for a large section of the audience. However, take it from a 20 year old male, 90% of my friends (who aren't really into reading, at all, ever) would not watch without gratuitous sex and/or violence. Its why they love it.

I'm not saying its a good thing, but that segment of the fanbase does exist.

But I do largely agree with you, that Ramsay scene, I've never cringed more in my life.

[Pinkie Baelish]

I once had a Youtube commenter ask me whether Shireen's facial deformity was caused by Stannis trying to burn her alive :lol:

[The Prince of Ice]

People who think Good = Starks, Evil = Everyone else.

I bleed grey and white and even i know thats stupid lol.

[mindchap]

I remember watching a clip of Martin talking about the show and saying of all the things he has written, this was the last thing he ever expected to become a show/movie, mainly because of the number of characters. So the show has to use something to get people hooked and since it would not be even remotely possible to cast something like this with A-list actors across the boards, they have to rely on whatever hook they can use, the sex or violence may draw them in but surely the story will grab some of them too. At least in the US, as that's where I'm from, I'm not sure about the rest of the world.

[Ser Edmure Tully]

I once had a Youtube commenter ask me whether Shireen's facial deformity was caused by Stannis trying to burn her alive :lol:

Hahahahahahahahahaahahaha. This made my day.

[Maegor the Cuddly]

I once had a Youtube commenter ask me whether Shireen's facial deformity was caused by Stannis trying to burn her alive :lol:

Buh... Buh... Buh...

*Sniffle.*

I just died on the inside.

[Errant Bard]

The way Jon got promoted Lord Commander didnt seem that contrived to me.

Apologies, but I think you kind of missed the point of my argument.

[Florina Laufeyson]

The way Jon got promoted Lord Commander didnt seem that contrived to me. Especially in a universe where blood is valued so highly, and the alternative candidate is as big a fuckwit (pardon) as Lord Janos Slynt.

People say Jon is kinda contrived and a Gary Stu, I find this odd as he is pretty flawed. He quite resolutely puts a child in danger because he places a higher value on another child, and at the moment he rides for epic vengeance against his half brother's killers, he get shivved four times.

Also, while maintaining good policy in his command of the Night's Watch, he is a terrible communicator, especially to his senior subordinates, and for all his experience and apparent Gary Stu-ness, still makes mistakes which have real consequences, such as sending most of his key allies away (Grenn, Edd, Iron Emmett, Pyp).

I know everyone thinks these screw-ups wont result in his death, but they may result in the dissolution of the Night's Watch after the Ides of Marsh, which is still a pretty severe consequence in my books.

:thumbsup: Its also possible that Jon, upon however he returns to the realm of the living, will be even less nice.

I once had a Youtube commenter ask me whether Shireen's facial deformity was caused by Stannis trying to burn her alive :lol:

Oh ouch. D:

[Ser Edmure Tully]

Apologies, but I think you kind of missed the point of my argument.

Could you possibly explain it in different terms for me then?

ETA: Sorry, I think I get what you were saying now, I originally read your post far too quickly.

To clarify, was your point that if you look at anything with a certain level of abstraction, things will always seem contrived, no matter what?

[mindchap]

I once had a Youtube commenter ask me whether Shireen's facial deformity was caused by Stannis trying to burn her alive :lol:

To be fair though, if you sneeze during the show you can miss two or three pages of book stuff.

[greensleeves]

It could carry the show alone for you, for me and no doubt for a large section of the audience. However, take it from a 20 year old male, 90% of my friends (who aren't really into reading, at all, ever) would not watch without gratuitous sex and/or violence. Its why they love it.

I'm not saying its a good thing, but that segment of the fanbase does exist.

But I do largely agree with you, that Ramsay scene, I've never cringed more in my life.

Why should your friends (who apparently can't find enough porn on the internet) be favored over potential fans who feel excluded by the sexist portrayal of sex and nudity on the show?

Beyond that, there are plenty of quality HBO shows that don't have a 'boob quota'. GOT's unfortunate choices in that area aren't a result of trying to get ratings (that doesn't matter so much with HBO anyways). Instead they are a reflection of deficiencies in the writing/production staff.