If L+R does = J, who will drop the bomb?

[MidnightAurora]

We do not know if Lyanna really yelled frlom the window, it seems that the voice belonged to Vayon Poole who was trying to wake Ned,

And, Ned is a rebel lord, second-in-command to the whole rebellion and the best pal of the guy who condoned the murder of Rhaegar's children. They cannot be sure whether he would agree to keep Jon secret from Robert, and even if he did, he definitely wouldn't support Jon's claim.

If he is Lyanna's son why wouldn't Ned support his claim? or are you stating Robert's claim? Eddard was in command because it is speculated that Lyanna was kidnapped and Eddard wanted her back. Many questions I have, but I am only on book 2 so maybe some of my questions will be answered later in the series.

GRRM is focusing on the battle/ Game for the Throne which is an interesting technique because it distracts from what is going on in the North where the true battle and story lies and where the Song of Fire and ice will come into play.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I have a theory that the fight with the KG happened after Lyannas death, when Ned and his men attempted to take The baby away and hide him, requesting the KG bend the knee to Robert and he will never know about the child, as Ned will raise him as his bastard. But the KG say no way hose that there is our king and our knees do not bend easily now hand him back.

[The Idiots Lantern]

That is UNTRUE. The Faith objected, and instigated an uprising, because of INCEST. In case you wondered who won, remember who Rhaegar's parents were.

Also remember who Rheagar's grandfather was, and how things ended for him. Dragons no longer answer to neither gods nor men. The wise amoung them, and Rheagar seems to have been one of those, knew this.

In the books, you have multiple occasions when incest is shown as unacceptable for the general population, yet the Targs were getting away with it. You don't get a single instance of polygamy bashing, yet you keep claiming that it is somehow less acceptable than incest.

I never said it was less acceptable then incest. Both are unacceptable; one for moral reasons and one for political ones. Marriage is such an important institution among the nobility that the Targs marrying everyone and anyone they chose was causing problems. Notice that after the Faith uprising, both practices were abandoned.

Now, if R and L married according to something besides the Faith, like in front of a wierwood tree, they might have found a loophole where the ceremony is meaningless according to the Seven but recognized in the North...

@ Idiots Lantern

Jon would have support of the Northmen as he is still a Stark if he is Lyanna's son.

He's still a stark if he's NED's son. Why would being Lyanna's son be better?

What Jon would bring if he is indeed Rhaegar's son is that all those who supported Rhaegar not his father would possibly get behind Jon to expel the Others, Lannisters etc..

What Northerner supported Rheagar and not Ned?

And the Southerners will have Targaryans to choose from when Daenerys and Aegon land. Aegon's claim, if he's real, would be better then Jon's. And if he's not real, he might poison the well for Jon; if one Targ can be fake, why not two? Jon doesn't even LOOK like a Targ, and he's claiming to be Rheagar's kid? On the word of a Canogman? Who'd believe it? I can't see it going over well.

[Pikachu101]

Who cares if Jon's legitimate or not, no ones going to believe him let alone support him!

The "bomb" will be dropped by Howland and Jon will be like: "lulz u iz jokes!" :lmao:

Then Bran will mostly like see something in the Weirwood and he'll be like: "soz bro, but you ain't my bro" :(

And Jon will be like "Nooooo!" :crying: then he'll order both of them to never tell a soul

[Ygrain]

If he is Lyanna's son why wouldn't Ned support his claim? or are you stating Robert's claim? Eddard was in command because it is speculated that Lyanna was kidnapped and Eddard wanted her back. Many questions I have, but I am only on book 2 so maybe some of my questions will be answered later in the series.

Because he would have to fight Robert to push Jon's claim, and Robert was, for one, his best friend (doubtful whether the KG knew that Ned and Robert had a serious break-up over the murdered children) and his new king.

Also remember who Rheagar's grandfather was, and how things ended for him. Dragons no longer answer to neither gods nor men. The wise amoung them, and Rheagar seems to have been one of those, knew this.

Incorrect. Dragons had more difficutly getting what they wanted, or getting away with it, but that doesn't mean that it was no longer possible for them.

I never said it was less acceptable then incest.

Not the point here. You claimed that it was illegal. It was never made illegal and there is zero negativity expressed towards in anywhere in the text. I brought up the incest comparison because that one gets multiple negative backlash, yet the Targs were still getting away with it. So, you have a practice which is widely perceived as negative yet the Targs get a free pass, and a practice which is never depicted negatively, yet the Targs shouldn't be able to get away with it why exactly?

Both are unacceptable; one for moral reasons and one for political ones. Marriage is such an important institution among the nobility that the Targs marrying everyone and anyone they chose was causing problems.

As I understand it, the problems Egg had were not because he let his sons marry whoever they wanted but because they rejected the plans that he had made, i.e. they spurned some houses that felt offended, like Walder Frey did. Especially Prince Duncan marrying a commoner must have been a spit in the face.

Notice that after the Faith uprising, both practices were abandoned.

Ëh... they were not. Neither. Rhaegar himself was born of incest. Polygamy seems to be less practiced, but when GRRM was asked about it, he never said that there were no isntances after Maegor because the practice was abandoned, he said that there might have been some less prominent polygamous Targs whom he doesn't remember and would have to look them up, or rather make them up.

Now, if R and L married according to something besides the Faith, like in front of a wierwood tree, they might have found a loophole where the ceremony is meaningless according to the Seven but recognized in the North...

That's what most of us think. What are the southern gods to Lyanna, after all? Besides, they - conveniently - have no institution that might proclaim the marriage invalid, once you say the words, you are bound.

[Joe Pine]

Who cares if Jon's legitimate or not, no ones going to believe him let alone support him!

The "bomb" will be dropped by Howland and Jon will be like: "lulz u iz jokes!" :lmao:

Then Bran will mostly like see something in the Weirwood and he'll be like: "soz bro, but you ain't my bro" :(

And Jon will be like "Nooooo!" :crying: then he'll order both of them to never tell a soul

That was worthwhile <_<

[Direwolf of the Starks]

I believe Rhaegar and Lyanna were married in from of the old gods, Lyanna's gods. By where in the south is a weirwood tree, hmmmm I wonder, OH WAIT, the isle of faces right next to Harrenhal.

[Joe Pine]

I believe Rhaegar and Lyanna were married in from of the old gods, Lyanna's gods. By where in the south is a weirwood tree, hmmmm I wonder, OH WAIT, the isle of faces right next to Harrenhal.

So they have a midnight trip in a rowboat?

[The Idiots Lantern]

Incorrect. Dragons had more difficutly getting what they wanted, or getting away with it, but that doesn't mean that it was no longer possible for them.

Aerys, Joffery, Viserys, over and over again we are shown kings who do what they want, when they want, and answer to nobody getting dragged down and trampled by the same people who's laws and will they ignore. You might claim it was "possible" but this does NOT make it wise.

Not the point here. You claimed that it was illegal. It was never made illegal and there is zero negativity expressed towards in anywhere in the text. I brought up the incest comparison because that one gets multiple negative backlash, yet the Targs were still getting away with it. So, you have a practice which is widely perceived as negative yet the Targs get a free pass, and a practice which is never depicted negatively, yet the Targs shouldn't be able to get away with it why exactly?

THEY DID NOT GET A FREE PASS. They DID it, but they got backlash for it! When Rheagar's grandfather decided that Aerys was going to marry his sister Rheanys, there was an outcry that never really faded. It was one of the many, many things that contributed to the deterioration of Targaryan support among the nobles. Not least of which because when brother marries sister, this limits your ability to make important alliances though marriage. For a noble house still recovering from Aegon "marry whoever you want" The Unlikely, this was a very bad time to resurrect the incest tradition.

Egg might have felt like the world's best dad for letting his sons out of their arranged marriages, but it cost House Targaryan important strategic alliances, and was a blow to the crown's power long before Mad King Aerys turned the country against him.

Ëh... they were not. Neither. Rhaegar himself was born of incest.

The practice was resurrected for reasons of "The Prince that was promised." Why does everyone forget that when Jaenaerys II heard the woodswitch's prophesy, he commanded his children marry? Before that, you have go to pretty far back in the Targaryan Family Tree to find direct brother-sister incest between kings and queens.

Polygamy seems to be less practiced, but when GRRM was asked about it, he never said that there were no isntances after Maegor because the practice was abandoned, he said that there might have been some less prominent polygamous Targs whom he doesn't remember and would have to look them up, or rather make them up.

Meaning that it existed among basically the Targ version of crastor: when nobody's paying attention, you can do whatever you want. Kings and Queens do not have that luxury. Half the reason to marry your daughter to a king is so that your grandchildren will be Kings themselves, but when that king already has a few wives and trueborn children besides, that is no longer a promise. Too many royal children is how the Blackfyre rebellion happened...

That's what most of us think. What are the southern gods to Lyanna, after all? Besides, they - conveniently - have no institution that might proclaim the marriage invalid, once you say the words, you are bound.

Only problem is, by that token, if they're not married by the laws of the Seven, they're not married in the eyes of the Seven. Which means that to the Citadel and every practicing follower of the Faith, Jon is still a bastard born. He'll have claim to legitimacy in the North, but that's all. Which is ironic because the North is the one place where being Rheagar's son is unlikely to be any use to him.

[jrmmsu88]

@jrmmsu88 Howland means nothing to Jon, why would he believe him?

Also why would Howland go around blabbing to all the lords? It doesn't matter about his reliability because at the end of the day Howland should respect Ned's wishes and keep shut. As long as Jon (somehow) believes him, it doesn't matter if no one else does

You're putting a lot of words in my mouth. I said that I can see at some point after the upcoming battle at Winterfell the Northmen are going to go south again and while they're in the Neck Reed is almost obligated to show up. At that point, with Northern leadership in chaos, I imagine he'll reveal it to Jon and the Lords with him. The emissaries that were carrying Robb's will are going to already be in the Neck and almost certainly have been found by the crannogmen.

I mean I get it, Jon hasn't met Reed and that would be a big WTF moment for anyone, but like I said its almost obligatory that he'll have some other form of proof.

The question was just who tells Jon about it, doesn't seem a big stretch to say the only person that was there to witness it is the one to tell him.

[Lady Flandrensis]

With so much said about Wylla now, I'm thinking I have to go back AGAIN and read through looking for Wylla references.

[jrmmsu88]

He can still matter as a dog. It's just his political future that'd take a hit...

Haha there have certainly been worse politicians, a dog would be an improvement on many of them

[jrmmsu88]

So they have a midnight trip in a rowboat?

Isle of Faces = Las Vegas ASOIAF Special Edition

[Direwolf of the Starks]

Isle of Faces = Las Vegas ASOIAF Special Edition

What happens in The Isle of the Faces, Stays in the Isle of the Faces

[Joe Pine]

Isle of Faces = Las Vegas ASOIAF Special Edition

:lol: probably a good thing he knows nothing about his parents.

[The Idiots Lantern]

You're putting a lot of words in my mouth. I said that I can see at some point after the upcoming battle at Winterfell the Northmen are going to go south again and while they're in the Neck Reed is almost obligated to show up. At that point, with Northern leadership in chaos, I imagine at that point he'll reveal it to Jon and the Lords with him.

This would be a bad idea. If you've got a ton of northern Lords and Stark Loyalists in your camp, the very last thing you want to say is "Oh and guess what, Jon's not Ned's son at all, he's Rheagar's son. But Lyanna was his mother so he's still Stark enough for you to follow, right?" Its really not going to go over well....

The emissaries that were carrying Robb's will are going to already be in the Neck and almost certainly have been found by the crannogmen.

I'm not entirely convinced that "will" is much more then wishful thinking on the part of Stark fans who still want there to be a King in the North. We have too many unanswered questions about what was in that will, who has it, if it still exists at all or if it ever really existed at all. I wouldn't hang too much importance on that will.

Haha there have certainly been worse politicians, a dog would be an improvement on many of them

Bah-dum-tish!

[jrmmsu88]

This would be a bad idea. If you've got a ton of northern Lords and Stark Loyalists in your camp, the very last thing you want to say is "Oh and guess what, Jon's not Ned's son at all, he's Rheagar's son. But Lyanna was his mother so he's still Stark enough for you to follow, right?" Its really not going to go over well....

I'm not entirely convinced that "will" is much more then wishful thinking on the part of Stark fans who still want there to be a King in the North. We have too many unanswered questions about what was in that will, who has it, if it still exists at all or if it ever really existed at all. I wouldn't hang too much importance on that will.

Bah-dum-tish!

Ok yeah I can see your argument now, don't necessarily agree but I still think it will be Reed in some way, at least as far Jon is concerned. We'll probably get confirmation with Bran's POV first.

Well, I know the guys he sends to the neck aren't seen again as of yet, but we do know they were sent with fake wills on paper and then the actual orders were committed to memory. I don't remember the exact passage but I think its reasonably safe to assume that Reed gets Robb's last orders. Maybe he doesn't but he'll still know Jon's parentage.

What happens on the Isle of Faces stays on the Isle of Faces, except Jon Snow...that kid'll come back with you.

[Old-Growth]

Ugh... No one seems interested in one plausible way Dany could learn prior to her return to Westeros, and why is that? Our author has been putting the pieces into Meereen needed to explain the mystery of the blue flower in a chink in a wall of ice: I suspect that we need only have Archmaester Marwyn arrive to have those pieces assembled.

Ser Jorah as well Dany knows about that vision (see the last Dany chapter in ACoK). Ser Barristan saw the wreath of winter roses laid in Lyanna's lap at the Harrenhall tourney. Tyrion knows that Eddard would not tell Jon the identity of his mother: that Tyrion will see means either that the liason was very embarrassing to Ned or that, more likely, the knowledge would be dangerous enough that even Jon could not be told (or perhaps part of Ned's promise to his sister was that Jon was not to be told either ever or until Jon was old enough to be able to keep the secret.) Once the possibility of Rhaegar and Lyanna surfaces, Tyrion will see that it must be that the knowledge was dangerous.

Finally, Marwyn's arrival together with what he has to say about the danger at the Wall should be enough to trigger a question about that vision. If Tyrion and Ser Barristan are present that should lead to a discussion that will arrive at the conclusion indicated.

To be sure, that means that it is likely Martin will do something to delay this such as, for example, having Ser Jorah killed in the "Battle of Fire". (Imagine, though, how Victarion might react to this information....)

[Joe Pine]

With so much said about Wylla now, I'm thinking I have to go back AGAIN and read through looking for Wylla references.

The wy in Wylla makes me think a Manderly connection - whether that's her real name or not.

[Pikachu101]

That was worthwhile <_<

I'd rather that happened instead of Jon being like: "omg Howland I believe you!" :D "now I shall be king of Westeros because everyone will care and believe that I'm Rhaegar's son!"