If L+R does = J, who will drop the bomb?

[MidnightAurora]

Good point. It would unify the north and south, aka ice and fire, as a battle force.

What I have been trying to state. Good point.

[Pikachu101]

If Jon and Dany "unify" the north and south as Westeros' magical saviours I'm going to kill somebody <_<

[Old-Growth]

If Jon and Dany "unify" the north and south as Westeros' magical saviours I'm going to kill somebody <_<

Would you care to nominate victims for this homicide? Perhaps you could determine a way to step into the story and kill Jon or Dany?

[Winterfell's ghost]

Howland Reed is our best bet i think....another possible character spilling the beans could be Bran (being told by BloodRaven)...but i think the one that would be more believable to Jon is Howland since is known to the Stark that he was with Ned when Lyanna died...

Totally agree with that. Brand might have some visions and somehow see it (or hear Ned talking to himself in front of the Trees at Winterfell) but I feel like Howland will soon enough get in the dance and tell to Jon the truth. Perhaps not in in the next book but sure in a dream of Spring.

[Booknerd2]

The funny thing about Wylla is what is said, but also what is not said. A lot of piecing together...

But it always stuck out for me that Ned told Cat to drop the Ashara Dayne thing, but Wylla is never mentioned at WF. So, Cat and the gossiping servants think it is Ashara. What started THAT? Just Harrenhal?

But Ned tells Robert while they are hunting that it is Wylla. Ned is letting different people deal with lies to suit what they would have a better chance of believing. Or what Ned had a better chance of getting away with.

Cat gets the Ashara suspicion. Hears it from the servants. I guess Ashara was the first name thrown out there. It is safe, either she really did die, or Ned, which doesn't help us because he is dead, really does know what happened to her. Wylla won't work for Ned when lying to Cat. Wylla entered her home at WF to care for baby Jon. Cat would have hit the floor and God knows what. I don't think the Wylla rumor ever hit WF. A bastard and now the wet nurse you fooled around with under my roof too? Ned knew better than to go there. But he needed a nurse. Nan was too old, and Cat was sure as hell not nursing Jon with Robb.

There is NO WAY Ashara as a lie was going to work when Robert asked Ned about Jon Snow's mother. Robert was around Ned growing up. Robert would know there was no way Ned hooked up with Ashara Dayne. Robert was at the Tourney at Harrenhal. Robert KNOWS how Ned is, and if Robert knew Ashara well too I think he would doubt that ever happened. Ned also might have worried about Robert being curious that stick in the mud Ned pulled that off, or he would no Ned could not have been in the same places as her, because he and Ned were together alot. He also might have seen the hooking up/dancing/or any flirations etc. would Brandon. Ned KNEW better than to try out the Ashara business with Robert. But still risky when everyone else thinks Wylla, and so close to WF. But he shuts Robert down quick, and Robert doesn't care anyway. He is always thinking about himself, was happy to get Ned as Hand and seal the Sansa and Joff deal, so with drink in hand and hunting he probably never gave it a second thought. Also, he saw Ned was pissed. And it was genius. Robert can't remember all the girls he's been with...and doesn't care, so he was not dwelling on Ned.

But Robert might have given Ned and Ashara a second thought. Might have thought that Ned was already connected with Cat and House Tully and not do that with Ashara who is tied to House Dayne/Arthur/the Targs.

But somebody in the Dayne camp is talking and we find that out between Edric telling Arya about Jon. Wylla, wow....she is good, still making sure the rumor mill was making the rounds. Still spinning...

Basically, both women are either a Dayne or working for the Daynes. They totally helped out. Dying to find out what exactly went down with Ned and Arthur at TOJ and later with the sister at Starfall. I think much more than the pittance of a dicey memory we get from Ned and more than a fight.

Without the Daynes, Ned and baby Jon would have really had a hard time keeping the secrets this long.

[Pikachu101]

Howland will drop the bomb and Bran will support it to be true. But that's going to be the only solid evidence Jon has; there's no marriage contract (do those things even exist), no supporters flocking over, no other witnesses and there certainly will not be a willing Jon Targaryen who wants to take the throne

[The guy from the Vale]

Howland will drop the bomb and Bran will support it to be true. But that's going to be the only solid evidence Jon has; there's no marriage contract (do those things even exist), no supporters flocking over, no other witnesses and there certainly will not be a willing Jon Targaryen who wants to take the throne

Three words: Targaryen Wedding Cloak.

As for Jon being willing to take the throne, we'll have to see. I fear he'll have no choice but to press his claim... because the alternative would be an Ice Zombie Apocalypse.

[MidnightAurora]

The funny thing about Wylla is what is said, but also what is not said. A lot of piecing together...

But it always stuck out for me that Ned told Cat to drop the Ashara Dayne thing, but Wylla is never mentioned at WF. So, Cat and the gossiping servants think it is Ashara. What started THAT? Just Harrenhal?

But Ned tells Robert while they are hunting that it is Wylla. Ned is letting different people deal with lies to suit what they would have a better chance of believing. Or what Ned had a better chance of getting away with.

Cat gets the Ashara suspicion. Hears it from the servants. I guess Ashara was the first name thrown out there. It is safe, either she really did die, or Ned, which doesn't help us because he is dead, really does know what happened to her. Wylla won't work for Ned when lying to Cat. Wylla entered her home at WF to care for baby Jon. Cat would have hit the floor and God knows what. I don't think the Wylla rumor ever hit WF. A bastard and now the wet nurse you fooled around with under my roof too? Ned knew better than to go there. But he needed a nurse. Nan was too old, and Cat was sure as hell not nursing Jon with Robb.

There is NO WAY Ashara as a lie was going to work when Robert asked Ned about Jon Snow's mother. Robert was around Ned growing up. Robert would know there was no way Ned hooked up with Ashara Dayne. Robert was at the Tourney at Harrenhal. Robert KNOWS how Ned is, and if Robert knew Ashara well too I think he would doubt that ever happened. Ned also might have worried about Robert being curious that stick in the mud Ned pulled that off, or he would no Ned could not have been in the same places as her, because he and Ned were together alot. He also might have seen the hooking up/dancing/or any flirations etc. would Brandon. Ned KNEW better than to try out the Ashara business with Robert. But still risky when everyone else thinks Wylla, and so close to WF. But he shuts Robert down quick, and Robert doesn't care anyway. He is always thinking about himself, was happy to get Ned as Hand and seal the Sansa and Joff deal, so with drink in hand and hunting he probably never gave it a second thought. Also, he saw Ned was pissed. And it was genius. Robert can't remember all the girls he's been with...and doesn't care, so he was not dwelling on Ned.

But Robert might have given Ned and Ashara a second thought. Might have thought that Ned was already connected with Cat and House Tully and not do that with Ashara who is tied to House Dayne/Arthur/the Targs.

But somebody in the Dayne camp is talking and we find that out between Edric telling Arya about Jon. Wylla, wow....she is good, still making sure the rumor mill was making the rounds. Still spinning...

Basically, both women are either a Dayne or working for the Daynes. They totally helped out. Dying to find out what exactly went down with Ned and Arthur at TOJ and later with the sister at Starfall. I think much more than the pittance of a dicey memory we get from Ned and more than a fight.

Without the Daynes, Ned and baby Jon would have really had a hard time keeping the secrets this long.

I just started reading the books and I am on book 3 and from what i gathered from Catelyn's chapters in book 1 are that she did not know Jon nor that he was at Winterfell until she arrived there with baby Robb. Jon was already there and from what she stated he had been there for almost a year as she was in Riverun protected and did not leave until the war was over and it was safe for her to travel. It seemed to me that was a very hurtful thing for her as here she is going to Winterfell with Ned's son and whoa wait a minute who is this kid and how come he was here prior to us?? I believe Catelyn heard about the Ashara and Ned asked her where she heard it and like you stated made sure no one else would gossip about it. When she tried to push he got cold and angry and told her to never ask about Jon's mother again. With that reaction is highly suggestive that Eddard is not Jon's father and regarding the promise he made Lyanna to probably keep Jon safe. Since Eddard is honorable and cannot lie easily it is better for him to not discuss it.

Winterfell crypts have been mentioned and used a lot of times in just the 1st few books alone so there are probably many importance information, tools etc that are down there as well as Jon's truth.

** Darn cell phone cannot get around auto correcting even if it is wrong.. LOL

[MidnightAurora]

The only reason why Eddard allowed Jon to go to the Wall is because Catelyn stated Jon could not stay in Winterfell after Ned goes to KL and she put her foot down on that one. Prior to that Ned refused to allow Jon to go to the Watch even though he asked and it was the only time Ned seemed to really get angry and put his foot down. So that begs one to question if Jon is really a bastard why protect him so and not allow him to go to the watch? Catelyn mentioned different men treated their bastards differently and Ned was the only one she saw be overly protective of Jon. Even Benjen, got a little riled and stated Jon should not join the watch and pushing for Jon to have life experience to know what he would give up and father children and wait until he was an adult to join if he still wanted to. Although Benjen was distant with Jon at the Wall he sure tried hard not to want him to come which if you think about how the wall needs people is odd. Even his comments were off.

[Aegor Blackfyre]

Howland will drop the bomb and Bran will support it to be true. But that's going to be the only solid evidence Jon has; there's no marriage contract (do those things even exist), no supporters flocking over, no other witnesses and there certainly will not be a willing Jon Targaryen who wants to take the throne

Howland is probably the only one who knows. Could he have told Jojen and Meera? Well nevertheless, they are quite far away from Jon at this point, though Bran might be able to talk with Jon. Though it seems strange to me that Meera and Jojen have not spoken with Bran about that already.

Also if the theory is true then Jon will have a hard time proving it, even with Reed's support simply because Eddard has told EVERYONE that Jon is his bastard son, something that everyone believes. Eddard's renown as a man of honor will make it hard for anyone to believe he would lie about such a thing. And besides, Jon looks like a Stark, not like a Targaryen.

[Pikachu101]

Three words: Targaryen Wedding Cloak.

err I don't think a 15/16 year old cloak proves anything other than Jon has a 15/16 year old Targaryen cloak :/

Where is this cloak anyway? I think Ned would have burnt it to protect Jon's identity

As for Jon being willing to take the throne, we'll have to see. I fear he'll have no choice but to press his claim... because the alternative would be an Ice Zombie Apocalypse.

Just because you saved the realm from a zombie apocalypse doesn't mean your suited to rule a kingdom. Jon would be intelligent and wise enough to know that, anyway Stannis will save the day :D and Jon shall live!

[The guy from the Vale]

err I don't think a 15/16 year old cloak proves anything other than Jon has a 15/16 year old Targaryen cloak :/

Where is this cloak anyway? I think Ned would have burnt it to protect Jon's identity

Just because you saved the realm from a zombie apocalypse doesn't mean your suited to rule a kingdom. Jon would be intelligent and wise enough to know that, anyway Stannis will save the day :D and Jon shall live!

You have it the wrong way around. Jon will not be handed the realm because he fought the Others, I think. Rather, I believe he needs to lead a united realm of mankind against the Others, or the Others will win...

As for Stannis saving the day, I fear his days are numbered.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I noticed when Robert & Ned are talking about their shared past, the history which bonds them that Robert is reminiscing about all the lays he ahd in his youth and asks Ned not who's Jons mum but rather what was the name of that foxy lass you were so into you know your bastards mother, Ned responds her name was Wylla. He's answering who was that woman so there must have at some point been A woman whom Ned was into in the early stages of the campaign, before he Wed Cat most likely as i don't see Ned as a cheat. Its good cover for an awkward moment when Robert assumes that said lass is Jons mum. Robert can't recall the names of his own conquests so Ned could claim the girl was called Shirley Bassey and Robert wouldn't question it. But he says Wylla. The wet nurses name. I think so that if Robert ever drunkenly blurts out that Neds Bastard is the daughter of that Wylla lass it ties in with the southern rumour mill that the real Wylla is turning by telling Edric Dayne and presumably others that she is his mother.

Indeed WF couldn't be fed the same rumour as Cat would go ballistic seen as she did indeed meet and presumably interact with Wylla.

The fishermans daughter from the Sisters is I think the real girl Ned was infatuated with that Robert asks about. Maybe he did in fact get her with Child and send a bag of silver but I doubt that I think she started that rumour up just for a claim to fame. But again it helps to keep folk off the scent.

[Booknerd2]

Well, yeah. The North is so isolated and far from Starfall, that rumor worked better for Ned to protect Jon at WF.

But for some reason, Ned doesn't go with the Ashara rumor with Robert. Wylla, some servant, will not pique Robert's interest nor his memory of those times. Robert was at the Tourney and might have seen Ashara's interactions with possibly Brandon and a reluctant to dance young Ned and might not have believed it or questioned Ned.

Ned did not want to be pressed further by Robert about that.

[The King's Justice]

The day characters believe R+L=J is the day Fat Walda becomes skinny, Cersei wins a brain, the Iron Born actually accomplish something and Arianne miraculously becomes a virgin :D

I'm having a hard time seeing Jon believe it

Unless of course George decides "fuck it! Screw LF, Varys and the whole concept of the GoT, I'm giving the throne to Jon Snow because I want Westeros to be just like Narnia" :)

R+L=J makes a lot of sense. I think it's true, but as you said, this isn't Disney, so I don't think Jon will be king and marry a beautiful princess. I think he'll discover his parentage but still die saving the realm from the Others.

[Ygrain]

Well, yeah. The North is so isolated and far from Starfall, that rumor worked better for Ned to protect Jon at WF.

But for some reason, Ned doesn't go with the Ashara rumor with Robert. Wylla, some servant, will not pique Robert's interest nor his memory of those times. Robert was at the Tourney and might have seen Ashara's interactions with possibly Brandon and a reluctant to dance young Ned and might not have believed it or questioned Ned.

Ned did not want to be pressed further by Robert about that.

Or perhaps Robert knew that during the whole Rebellion, Ned never had an opportunity to meet Ashara.

[Booknerd2]

Exactly.

They were in pretty close contact for years before that and once the rebellion broke out and the ensuing war. I think Robert could trace Ned's steps if he wanted to and conclude it wasn't her.

And really, Ned was going South to become Hand. All he needs is that rumor getting around if Robert spilled the beans by accident, and you have the scheming, nosey Lannisters, Varys, LF, and others digging into Ned's past. Not good. He knew that.

And the minute he got there most of them were already trying to undermine him and create problems for him anyway without even touching the who's Snow's mother thing.

[Booknerd2]

Actually, the crazy thing is that here is Ned getting ready to expose the true paternity of Cersei's children, meanwhile, he has the whole Jon Snow secret going on.

It's nuts. And it might be why, just in case, he was fine with Jon going to the NW, while he went South. He knows how they are in KL; the intrigue, gossip, stepping on people to get ahead.

I am sure when Robert asked him he was worried about leaving WF, worried about not being happy there because it was a chore for him. He knows what those people are like and didn't want to deal with the bs.

And I am sure knowing how they are, he was worried about curious people digging into his background or Jon's. Many were around during the time of the Rebellion.

[The guy from the Vale]

Actually, the crazy thing is that here is Ned getting ready to expose the true paternity of Cersei's children, meanwhile, he has the whole Jon Snow secret going on.

It's nuts. And it might be why, just in case, he was fine with Jon going to the NW, while he went South. He knows how they are in KL; the intrigue, gossip, stepping on people to get ahead.

I am sure when Robert asked him he was worried about leaving WF, worried about not being happy there because it was a chore for him. He knows what those people are like and didn't want to deal with the bs.

And I am sure knowing how they are, he was worried about curious people digging into his background or Jon's. Many were around during the time of the Rebellion.

Yes, the really interesting thing about the talk in the Godswood is that both Cersei and Ned are traitors, harboring the two most dangerous secrets of the Seven Kingdoms... and they talk about both treasons, although only about one of them openly.

[Pikachu101]

You have it the wrong way around. Jon will not be handed the realm because he fought the Others, I think. Rather, I believe he needs to lead a united realm of mankind against the Others, or the Others will win...

Gods be good what a terrible idea. If George turns Jon into Aragon I'm literally going to burn the books.

Like I said before just because Jon can lead an army doesn't mean he can rule seven kingdoms he knows nothing about.

With that kind of logic Robert should've been the best ruler in Westeros after leading the country against the tyrant King Aerys

R+L=J makes a lot of sense. I think it's true

We only know R+L=J is true because we've read Ned's PoV. Without the PoV, this theory would've been on the same level as Aerys being either Cersei and Jaime or Tyrion's father.

Imagine if a random bannerman Cersei's never met tells her Aerys is actually her father. That's why Jon won't believe Howland, until Bran comes up with something and it's also why no one will believe R+L=J