The Great Northern Conspiracy REALISTICALLY/and GRRM comments?

[Montey14]

Well, it's true that there's something going on there. But only Manderly and Glover, I wouldn't call a great conspiracy. It's an alliance.

The Mormonts are absolutely down with bringing down the Boltons....as are the Flints ....remember they lost kin at the red wedding....if they're in league with Manderly remains to be seen....but they would like nothing better than to eradicate the Boltons... so thats 4 great northern houses already ...

[Roadside Rose]

Can someone explain this theory in short? I noticed there were like 7 or more parts to it. I just want to know what it's about.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

The Mormonts are absolutely down with bringing down the Boltons....as are the Flints ....remember they lost kin at the red wedding....if they're in league with Manderly remains to be seen....but they would like nothing better than to eradicate the Boltons... so thats 4 great northern houses already ...

The only houses that are truly behind House Bolton are Dustin and Ryswell. Both of those houses and are tied to Roose by marriage and Lady Dustin has a personal score to settle with the Starks.

[Heyo Winter Comin']

The only houses that are truly behind House Bolton are Dustin and Ryswell. Both of those houses and are tied to Roose by marriage and Lady Dustin has a personal score to settle with the Starks.

'Truly' is well and truly up for debate. Why did Lady Dustin want to look in the crypts and note the missing swords if not to prove that Bran and Rickon did escape? And 'the North Remembers, Frey'? Very ominous for a Bolton loyalist. The North either know or suspect Roose's role in the RW, he arrived at Winterfell with a Frey army.

And the Ryswells were bound to Roose with Bethany, but she's dead, as is Domeric, and they have to serve the monster that put Domeric there. Who knows how Bethany died, but they don't have much tying themselves to the Boltons now.

[aryagonnakill]

Hmm the idea of Roose being connected to the others is really interesting. His house, historically, was involved in sorcery right? Do we know what happens to Craster's sons? Are they "sacrificed" as in killed immediately? This crackpot thought just came into my head that Ramsay's one of his lost sons, given to Roose by the Others for some still vague reason...I mean how confirmed is it that Roose raped that woman and out came Ramsay?

Either Samwell or Old Nan tells us that the others feed the wights the blood of babies. Could be the case could not be. But I don't think the Boltons are tied to sorcery at all, in fact many have a good theory that they began skinning people/things to try to understand warging. It seems likely tho that is was the Starks who embraced the magic and the Boltons became lords instead of kings for it.

[bemused]

'Truly' is well and truly up for debate. Why did Lady Dustin want to look in the crypts and note the missing swords if not to prove that Bran and Rickon did escape? And 'the North Remembers, Frey'? Very ominous for a Bolton loyalist. The North either know or suspect Roose's role in the RW, he arrived at Winterfell with a Frey army.

And the Ryswells were bound to Roose with Bethany, but she's dead, as is Domeric, and they have to serve the monster that put Domeric there. Who knows how Bethany died, but they don't have much tying themselves to the Boltons now.

:agree: I would say only hatred.

ETA: When you start looking at it, Barbrey's story is suspicious , and her feelings for the Starks could be exactly the opposite..she could have been close in age and friendly with both Lyanna and Benjen...

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

'Truly' is well and truly up for debate. Why did Lady Dustin want to look in the crypts and note the missing swords if not to prove that Bran and Rickon did escape? And 'the North Remembers, Frey'? Very ominous for a Bolton loyalist. The North either know or suspect Roose's role in the RW, he arrived at Winterfell with a Frey army.

And the Ryswells were bound to Roose with Bethany, but she's dead, as is Domeric, and they have to serve the monster that put Domeric there. Who knows how Bethany died, but they don't have much tying themselves to the Boltons now.

Both houses were the first to declare for Roose openly. They both joined Ramsay in marching on Moat Cailan with their hosts. Yes, both houses were physically connected to Roose through Bethany and Domeric, but the support has seemed continue.

As far as I know, Lady Dustin went to the crypts to be with Brandon Stark's remains. I think she went into too much detail about her past with the Starks and the hatred she feels for Ned Stark for not bringing home her husband's bones. He also loved Domeric and Roose is still her brother-in-law.

Most of the North seems to blame the Freys. Aside from Lord Manderly and Master Glover, Roose's disinformation campaign has seemed to work.

[Steve Moss II]

And don't forget the Ryswell snowman on the parapets.

[tbc]

Both houses were the first to declare for Roose openly. They both joined Ramsay in marching on Moat Cailan with their hosts. Yes, both houses were physically connected to Roose through Bethany and Domeric, but the support has seemed continue.

As far as I know, Lady Dustin went to the crypts to be with Brandon Stark's remains. I think she went into too much detail about her past with the Starks and the hatred she feels for Ned Stark for not bringing home her husband's bones. He also loved Domeric and Roose is still her brother-in-law.

Most of the North seems to blame the Freys. Aside from Lord Manderly and Master Glover, Roose's disinformation campaign has seemed to work.

Exactly. Manderly and Glover both have direct witnesses to the Red Wedding, who will know that Roose stabbed Robb. Most of the other guests are dead, and the GreatJon is still a captive (although Crowsfood and Whoresbane are both essentially anti-Bolton by the end of Dance).

This is why Rickon is so important: if Davos turns up with Rickon (who would be heir to Winterfell to everybody's knowledge), and Rickon outlines that Ramsey torched Winterfell, killed Rodrik, and slaughtered the household, the Boltons are toast. The Northern lords are already appalled by Ramsey, and would believe it of him.

[Rukaz]

I think any conspiracy in the North will be aimed at restoring Rickon to Winterfell. I don't think Jon's parentage will matter to anyone in Westeros. I think it will matter to the readers.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

I think any conspiracy in the North will be aimed at restoring Rickon to Winterfell. I don't think Jon's parentage will matter to anyone in Westeros. I think it will matter to the readers.

I could not disagree more. Jon's true parentage will matter a great deal to the realm, especially if his true parents were married, as I suspect. It will matter to Danaerys, Aegon, Stannis, Euron, and every other contender for the throne.

Additionally, if the North can put a king raised by Ned Stark on the Iron Throne, they will unite in a heartbeat.

[mbuehner]

The legal niceties of Jon's heritage are irrelevant. He took the oath of the Night's Watch, which is perhaps 8000 years old. If there is a law all of the 7 kingdoms, and particularly the North, would hold as absolute, its the vows of the watch. If you're willing to set that aside, the who's who of the always nebulous succession customs is an afterthought. Like always, strength is what really matters.

[LadyMary]

I read this claim a lot that Rhaegar and Lyanna got married. But who would marry them though? :dunno:

That's beem my main problem with the marriage theory; the legality of such a marriage. Targ polygamy has not been practiced in centuries as far as we know, and there's nothing in the texts that states or implies that Elia was formally set aside so that Rhaegar could legally marry Lyanna.

However, I like one theory that maybe Rhaegar and Lyanna took a side trip to the Isle of Faces on their way South from wherever the "abduction" occurred, and they took personal marriage vows in front of the weirwoods, Northern style. All they would need is a weirwood tree and a couple of witnesses which apparently they had; Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent. As far as the two are concerned, they're married - but trying to hold it up as a legal marriage would be quite another story. It might not have mattered to Dayne and Whent because they were more than just Rhaegar's guards in that they were his close personal friends, and I think they would have honored Rhaegar's intentions, regardless of whether it was strictly "legal", when they were left as guardians for Lyanna and her son at the Tower of Joy.

Plus, after the deaths of Rhaegar, Aerys, Aegon and Rhaenys and well as Elia, the three Kings Guards would have even more reason to want to honor Rhaegar's last request. They probably were dealing with survivor guilt and felt that they'd failed in their duty because they were not able to prevent Rhaegar's death and the deaths of Aerys and the others.

All that being said, Ned was likely to view the marriage as illegal, besides being problematic considering his loyalties. At the very least, he had to lie about who Jon is and perhaps also the legitimacy of his birth.

I think any conspiracy in the North will be aimed at restoring Rickon to Winterfell. I don't think Jon's parentage will matter to anyone in Westeros. I think it will matter to the readers.

I think there are two separate plots going on or an heir and a spare situation. Those who were with Robb and knew of his will would be working to place his named heir - Jon at Winterfell, while Manderly has other information and is looking for the spare - Rickon. Or visa versa... with Rickon being the heir and Jon being the spare. The other factor that can't be discounted is Jon's oath to the Nights Watch and the fact that he's been elected Lord Commander, and I'm sure some of the Northern Lords are looking for a plan B if Jon would not leave the Nights Watch.

I think Jon's parentage will be important to the fight against the Others and saving the realms of men, as I think he is the subject of a prophesy, but I don't think it will mean he's going to rule the realm from Kings Landing or even rule the North from Winterfell.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

That's beem my main problem with the marriage theory; the legality of such a marriage. Targ polygamy has not been practiced in centuries as far as we know, and there's nothing in the texts that states or implies that Elia was formally set aside so that Rhaegar could legally marry Lyanna.

However, I like one theory that maybe Rhaegar and Lyanna took a side trip to the Isle of Faces on their way South from wherever the "abduction" occurred, and they took personal marriage vows in front of the weirwoods, Northern style. All they would need is a weirwood tree and a couple of witnesses which apparently they had; Arthur Dayne and Oswell Whent. As far as the two are concerned, they're married - but trying to hold it up as a legal marriage would be quite another story. It might not have mattered to Dayne and Whent because they were more than just Rhaegar's guards in that they were his close personal friends, and I think they would have honored Rhaegar's intentions, regardless of whether it was strictly "legal", when they were left as guardians for Lyanna and her son at the Tower of Joy.

Plus, after the deaths of Rhaegar, Aerys, Aegon and Rhaenys and well as Elia, the three Kings Guards would have even more reason to want to honor Rhaegar's last request. They probably were dealing with survivor guilt and felt that they'd failed in their duty because they were not able to prevent Rhaegar's death and the deaths of Aerys and the others.

All that being said, Ned was likely to view the marriage as illegal, besides being problematic considering his loyalties. At the very least, he had to lie about who Jon is and perhaps also the legitimacy of his birth.

It does not matter when the Targaryens practiced the polygamy, what matters is the precedent that was set. Rhaegar would not set aside Elia, nor would he have to. Had everything been straightened out before Brandon stormed into King's Landing with his retinue, the Martells could have been placated. Baby Aegon would still be Rhaegar's heir and Elia would still be Rhaegar's wife. Going back to the books, the Dornish are pretty open about relationships and the like.

As to who would marry them, any old septon would do. All that was required was witnesses, which I think Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower, and Oswell Whent all were.

[tbc]

It does not matter when the Targaryens practiced the polygamy, what matters is the precedent that was set. Rhaegar would not set aside Elia, nor would he have to. Had everything been straightened out before Brandon stormed into King's Landing with his retinue, the Martells could have been placated. Baby Aegon would still be Rhaegar's heir and Elia would still be Rhaegar's wife. Going back to the books, the Dornish are pretty open about relationships and the like.

As to who would marry them, any old septon would do. All that was required was witnesses, which I think Arthur Dayne, Gerold Hightower, and Oswell Whent all were.

And that's the only reasonable explanation for why three of the fiercest members of the Kingsguard spend the rebellion away from the fighting.

[Black Wolf Smith]

'Truly' is well and truly up for debate. Why did Lady Dustin want to look in the crypts and note the missing swords if not to prove that Bran and Rickon did escape? And 'the North Remembers, Frey'? Very ominous for a Bolton loyalist. The North either know or suspect Roose's role in the RW, he arrived at Winterfell with a Frey army.

And the Ryswells were bound to Roose with Bethany, but she's dead, as is Domeric, and they have to serve the monster that put Domeric there. Who knows how Bethany died, but they don't have much tying themselves to the Boltons now.

Very good points. Many think that almost everything she said to Theon were lies, and she is probing Theon trying to see where he stands/ throw Ramsey off what she is really doing.

Can someone explain this theory in short? I noticed there were like 7 or more parts to it. I just want to know what it's about.

In short the theory is that many if not all the major house in the north are working together to defeat the Bolton's(and possibly Stannis, after they use him) and restore the Starks. IMO it isn't one gigantic NC, but multiple groups working together, that may or may not all come together as more info is pass along.

That's beem my main problem with the marriage theory; the legality of such a marriage. Targ polygamy has not been practiced in centuries as far as we know, and there's nothing in the texts that states or implies that Elia was formally set aside so that Rhaegar could legally marry Lyanna.

The biggest clue to them being married is the 3 KG at the ToJ. Even 1 being there doesn't make a lot of sense at that point of the story, but yet there are 3. Why wouldn't at least 1 to DS if Jon wasn't heir. The only way he would be heir is if they were married. As for who could have married them, there is a Weirwood at the Daynes, and Arthur was w/ them. They could have easily done like Ramsey and FArya and had an old gods marriage.

[LadyMary]

I'm a firm believer that R+L=J and I agree that the presence of the KG at the ToJ may be because they are protecting the baby that they think is a trueborn king. They may also be there because they were personally loyal to their friend Rhaegar and wanted their last stand to be carrying out his orders. I think there more personal reasons that would cause them to stay whether Jon is Rhaegar's legitimate son or a bastard.

It goes along with my belief that Arthur Dayne and Oswell Agent were more personally loyal to Rhaegar than they were to Aerys, as long as there was no conflict between father and son in the orders they received. So Rhaegar - their friend - ordered them to stay and protect Lyanna and her child, and there was no counter order from Aerys to ship off to Dragonstome, so they stayed at the ToJ.

[bogdevil]

also to answer "who would have married them?" many believe the Septin Maribald chapters, besides showing that Sandor is still alive, give an explanation in traveling septons. Who knows, he was old enough that he might have been the Septon that did it.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Very good points. Many think that almost everything she said to Theon were lies, and she is probing Theon trying to see where he stands/ throw Ramsey off what she is really doing.

Lady Dustin went into way too much detail to be lying to Theon. Why else would she have threatened him to keep his mouth shut about her secret vendetta against Ned and House Stark. Its obvious she never got over Brandon, her first love and the man who took her maidenhead. She settled for Lord Dustin, but she lost him in a Stark war and Ned did not even bring back his bones. She is in the crypts for the reasons that she states.

The biggest clue to them being married is the 3 KG at the ToJ. Even 1 being there doesn't make a lot of sense at that point of the story, but yet there are 3. Why wouldn't at least 1 to DS if Jon wasn't heir. The only way he would be heir is if they were married. As for who could have married them, there is a Weirwood at the Daynes, and Arthur was w/ them. They could have easily done like Ramsey and FArya and had an old gods marriage.

A couple of points:

1. There is no mention of Lyanna being anywhere in Dorne or any other keep with a Weirwood for that matter. She would have been seen by someone and reports would have been made. Rhaegar was well known by all and could not have gone anywhere unnoticed. We certainly would have heard something about Lyanna being at Starfall. I agree that they were married, but it was by some no name septon of little note. He performed the service and the 3 KG bore witness.

2. Jon was not the heir, Aegon was. That was plain and simple, but Rhaegar needed another son for his interpretation of the prophecy. It still does not fully explain why the Lord Commander of the KG and the greatest knight of all time (Dayne) would be absent from the decisive battle. Had those 3 KG been on the Trident along with Barristan Selmy, I think the day would have gone differently.

My thoughts are that Rhaegar had rode out alone to return to King's Landing and smooth things over with House Stark and his cousin Robert. However, his father had gone too far and things had spiraled out of control. I certainly agree that Ser Arthur was personally loyal to Rhaegar, as the two were best friends, loyalty to the King and the realm comes first.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

also to answer "who would have married them?" many believe the Septin Maribald chapters, besides showing that Sandor is still alive, give an explanation in traveling septons. Who knows, he was old enough that he might have been the Septon that did it.

I like the theory of the traveling septon. I don't think that there have ever been a shortage of septons in the realm. Anyone would have been sufficient.

I always wondered if Ned buried a last will and testament, or written decree from Rhaegar at the Tower of Joy. It would make sense that Rhaegar would have left something of the kind. Perhaps Howland Reed has such a document in his care at Greywater Watch.