The Great Northern Conspiracy REALISTICALLY/and GRRM comments?

[Ludd]

We KNOW there is a Northern consiracy. The ONLY question is how "Great" it is.

Manderly is about to switch to Rickon/Stannis and it is assumed that with him go the Glovers and the Umbers.

The Hill clans know of Rickon and Bran so are presumably biding their time - I assume they will also join with Manderly but could have their own agenda. Skagos will join with Rickon/Manderly.

Karstarks will NOW join with Manaderly if not before - they are a little broken anyway.

The Neck will support Jon/Stannis and by reference probably Rickon/Manaderly. So too the Mormants

So of the Northern Houses we are unsure about Ryswell, Dustin and some of the Flints and of course the Boltons.

It seems like a pretty big "conspiracy" to me although there could be three different agendas ie Stannis/Jon/Neckversus Manderly/Rickon versus Hill clans and ? Bran.

However they ALL hate the Boltons.

I think there is an issue with Lady Dustin. here role is very unclear and I rather suspect she is in league with the "Others"

[First of My Name]

We KNOW there is a Northern consiracy. The ONLY question is how "Great" it is.

We do?

[mushroomshirt]

We do?

Sure. At least Manderly and Glover are conspiring. Maybe the conspiracy does not take on all the details described here, but there is definitely a conspiracy of some sort.

[First of My Name]

Sure. At least Manderly and Glover are conspiring. Maybe the conspiracy does not take on all the details described here, but there is definitely a conspiracy of some sort.

Well, it's true that there's something going on there. But only Manderly and Glover, I wouldn't call a great conspiracy. It's an alliance.

[mushroomshirt]

Well, it's true that there's something going on there. But only Manderly and Glover, I wouldn't call a great conspiracy. It's an alliance.

It's a secret alliance, which makes it a conspiracy, IMO. But I agree it is not necessarily "great".

[Nognir]

At first I kind of dismissed the cause of the conspiracy, to crown Jon as KITN, since he refused the legitimization by Stannis. A legitimization by Robb, though - he'd react differently to that. Besides, even if he refuses, they can crown Rickon when Davos brings him back and someone will serve as Lord Regent until he comes of age. I tip my hat to the Fat Lord, though. That level of calculating and scheming is at Varys's level.

[Queen Elsa]

All of Robb's bannermen affixed their seals to this request that was sent to Howland Reed confirming the legitimization of Jon in the sight of Gods and men (2 decoys were sent with fake letters). While I might be completely wrong on this, what I am most confident in is that Howland Reed is going to play a major role in how the North is decided.

I doubt if Roose affixed his seal on that. BTW, was he aware of Robb's will or he just doesn't care (if he knew it all along)?

[mushroomshirt]

I doubt if Roose affixed his seal on that. BTW, was he aware of Robb's will or he just doesn't care (if he knew it all along)?

Roose was not there. He was on the other side of the twins. The only time they could have discussed it with Roose is just before the Red Wedding.

[Black Wolf Smith]

The only surviving members of Aerys' KG were Ser Barristan and of course Jaime. Robert pardoned them both. Ser Barristan as always fought like and demon and was near death on the Trident, Aerys was dead so he accepted Robert's Pardon. And we know what Jamie did and why he did it.

The rule did not change until Cersei and Joffery dismissed Ser Barristan in favor of the hound.

The Usurper can not pardon him. They vow was to the Targaryen dynasty, not to Baratheon's.

I believe that many of the Northern Lords are working different ideas, with them at or near the top. That there are at least 3 plans to bring back the Starks, or at least get rid of the Boltons.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

The Usurper can not pardon him. They vow was to the Targaryen dynasty, not to Baratheon's.

I believe that many of the Northern Lords are working different ideas, with them at or near the top. That there are at least 3 plans to bring back the Starks, or at least get rid of the Boltons.

He can and he did....instead of killing Barristan and sending Jaime to the Wall as Ned urged.

[Black Wolf Smith]

He can and he did....instead of killing Barristan and sending Jaime to the Wall as Ned urged.

You are really hard headed aren't you? HE DIDN'T HAVE THE RIGHT, POWER, OR ABLITY TO DO THAT, That is what Barristan finally gets, and why he went to Dany.

As Dayne said to Ned,

Our knees do not bend easily

And as Dayne said to Jaime

All knights must bleed, Jaime. Blood is the seal of our devotion

Robert could have made the offer, but they did not have the right to accept it, they had to kill him, or die, that is what the duty demanded of them.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

You are really hard headed aren't you? HE DIDN'T HAVE THE RIGHT, POWER, OR ABLITY TO DO THAT, That is what Barristan finally gets, and why he went to Dany.

As Dayne said to Ned,

And as Dayne said to Jaime

Robert could have made the offer, but they did not have the right to accept it, they had to kill him, or die, that is what the duty demanded of them.

Just remember you started with the personal attacks. Either you are an idiot, have not read the books carefully, have no logical reasoning skill, or all of the above.

Robert won his crown by the right of conquest. He killed the Crown Prince and it was the rebellion that bore his name that removed the royal family from power. As such, he had the power to punish those who fought against him in the war, which he did by taking land and gold from houses like Dary and Connington. And he had the power to reward those loyal to him. He also had the power to pardon those who fought against him, which he did with Jaime and Barristan.

From ASOS: After Barristan saves Dany from the Titans Bastard and is his true identify is revealed.

"Yours, if you will have me." Ser Barristan had tears in his eyes. "I took Robert's pardon, aye. I served him in Kingsguard and in counsel. Served with the Kingslayer and others near as bad, who soiled the white cloak I wore.

[Queen Alexandria Stormborn]

I agree. Plus the Rhaegar/Lyanna marriage could under many circumstances be valid. He was the heir to the throne and he could easily have a legit wedding with whomever he wanted. Also Jon is not dead, nor will he stay at the wall, the mutiny unchained him from the NW. He will have to flee from there for his life, and my guess is, the wall will come down shortly after he leaves, due to the magic being broken in the Wall because of what happened to Jon and the fall of the NW.

Also, so what what if Jon becoming overall King is a bit fairytale. Can't these books have some good things happen in them? If the small folk find out Rhaegar has a living son out there, they would support him. It's not like the rulers since the Targaryens left have been that great...Robert spent the country into ruin and Cersei has brought nothing but war. Dany is going to revamp the Targaryen name when she comes in and saves the country for the WW with her Dragons. IMO the citizens will be more than happy to accept a Targaryen ruler at this point.

And to the OP, yes I believe in the GNC, and I think it will play a vital role in the support of Jon and the targaryen's taking back the throne, because Jon is also a Stark. The northerners will love to support Jon Stark/Targaryen NEd's son and the 1st of his name. They will be honored to call him one of their own.

. Yes yes awesome! I agree yes.

[LCH]

Completely agree with you. Roose isn't fucked yet. There is something array here because it feels too good and it never should with GRRM. I'm leaning towards Ramsay as the fall guy, or Ramsay as being central to some weird others connection.

Hmm the idea of Roose being connected to the others is really interesting. His house, historically, was involved in sorcery right? Do we know what happens to Craster's sons? Are they "sacrificed" as in killed immediately? This crackpot thought just came into my head that Ramsay's one of his lost sons, given to Roose by the Others for some still vague reason...I mean how confirmed is it that Roose raped that woman and out came Ramsay?

[tbc]

Hmm the idea of Roose being connected to the others is really interesting. His house, historically, was involved in sorcery right? Do we know what happens to Craster's sons? Are they "sacrificed" as in killed immediately? This crackpot thought just came into my head that Ramsay's one of his lost sons, given to Roose by the Others for some still vague reason...I mean how confirmed is it that Roose raped that woman and out came Ramsay?

How are the Others going to get past the Wall, half-way down the North, walk up to the Dreadfort, have a chat with Roose, and then get home again, without being noticed?

The Bolton story is a long succession of taboo violations (which are a very, very big deal in societies like the "authentic" North to which Roose seems to belong). At most, I'd suggest there may be unintentional blood magic in Ramsey's conception, but it's most likely he's just pre-disposed to cruelty and psychopathic lack of empathy and objectification of people, and is raised in an environment which encourages these traits.

[Black Wolf Smith]

From ASOS: After Barristan saves Dany from the Titans Bastard and is his true identify is revealed.

"Yours, if you will have me." Ser Barristan had tears in his eyes. "I took Robert's pardon, aye. I served him in Kingsguard and in counsel. Served with the Kingslayer and others near as bad, who soiled the white cloak I wore.

No you are missing Barristan's point. Jaime killed tMK, there is no bigger traitor or dishonor, and he said he served with them, that is his dishonor. He realized that now, they had no right to take what Robert offered them, and he has come to Dany to regain his honor. By serving her, or dying for her, he can regain the loss of honor. He now gets why Hightower, Whent, and Dayne did what they stayed true, till the very end, even though the king was dead.

It doesn't matter that "all" of the Targaryens had been concord. He's vow wasn't till you get over thrown, it was for as long as he lived, to live and die to protect them, and their kingdom. He betrayed that vow.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

No you are missing Barristan's point. Jaime killed tMK, there is no bigger traitor or dishonor, and he said he served with them, that is his dishonor. He realized that now, they had no right to take what Robert offered them, and he has come to Dany to regain his honor. By serving her, or dying for her, he can regain the loss of honor. He now gets why Hightower, Whent, and Dayne did what they stayed true, till the very end, even though the king was dead.

It doesn't matter that "all" of the Targaryens had been concord. He's vow wasn't till you get over thrown, it was for as long as he lived, to live and die to protect them, and their kingdom. He betrayed that vow.

You can read whatever you like into quote I posted, but the fact remains that Robert gave Ser Barristan a pardon and he took it. That was your original point of contention and it has been settled.

Robert as the new king had the power and exercised the power to issue pardons to his enemies. Arguing anything else is just nonsense.

[qixoticneurotic]

No you are missing Barristan's point. Jaime killed tMK, there is no bigger traitor or dishonor, and he said he served with them, that is his dishonor. He realized that now, they had no right to take what Robert offered them, and he has come to Dany to regain his honor. By serving her, or dying for her, he can regain the loss of honor. He now gets why Hightower, Whent, and Dayne did what they stayed true, till the very end, even though the king was dead.

It doesn't matter that "all" of the Targaryens had been concord. He's vow wasn't till you get over thrown, it was for as long as he lived, to live and die to protect them, and their kingdom. He betrayed that vow.

theres still the rather obvious fact that kings landing isn't dorne and dany has as much right to the iron throne as pod does. that her husband was every bit the kingslayer Jamie is. Barristans place is with aegon (if true) or Jon. not dany. the fact that she has dragons doesn't change the fact that she has boobs

[setmyheartafire]

More than that, Martin hates using literary cliches, and this an old one going back to at least King Arthur: The Lost Heir. Heck, the lost heir living as a Ranger was one of Tolkien's plots. However, Martin loves subverting literary cliches. The cliche is the lost heir appears, proves his identity, and the rules justly as a king. Well, if the first doesn't happen, then there is not cliche to subvert. So, either Jon will never become King, or he'll be a very bad one. I suspect the former, almost everything I witnessed from Jon as Lord Commander suggests a good, but not perfect, leader.

Just wanted to comment that the lost heir cliche could be playing out with Aegon rather than Jon so that there are two sides to the trope; ice and fire, Aegon being fire, Jon being ice.

And I would love the GNC to actually happen. I thought the whole Manderly is a secret rebel thing was fantastic, right down to the Frey pie.

The only thing is, I don't see how this can realistically occur so secretly across such distance and without seeming fairytale, as others have said. I'm interested to know that GRRM likes the Arthur as Uther's bastard literature, that kind of cements things to me that Jon is Rhaegar's bastard. I know we're not discussing it here, but that makes me wonder... since a lot of time has been devoted to showing how bastards are so poorly regarded in the realm, if Aegon and Jon are going to be foils for each other, one being trueborn (Aegon) but awful, and the other being bastard born but great...

I do not think Jon will accept being King in the North, unless he feels that it is necessary to complete the work he was doing as the Lord Commander without being in the NW anymore (I don't know if the NW will keep him after such an obvious division in the mens' thinking).

I do think that, regardless of any lords' councils, conspiracies, inheritances, or birthrights, that Jon will end up leading the North and maybe the realm against the Others in the way that Mance Raydar is the King Beyond the Wall... the peoples' choice. Could that end him up on the Iron Throne in the end? Maybe, but I think it's less important than getting there...

[Joe Pine]

You can read whatever you like into quote I posted, but the fact remains that Robert gave Ser Barristan a pardon and he took it. That was your original point of contention and it has been settled.

Robert as the new king had the power and exercised the power to issue pardons to his enemies. Arguing anything else is just nonsense.

I agree. Regime changed, Barristan was pardoned and then served that king. He accepted Robert's rule as king and the king's justice. Feudal service made him 'Robert's man'

He may regret doing so after Joffrey's dismissal of him, but Robert wiped the slate clean for him and gave him a position that acknowledged his stature as a great knight.

Jaime's actions had nothing to do with Barristan's honour. Jaime presumably also had to do homage to Robert to remain in the Kingsguard and he too was 'Robert's man'

Barristan might be uncomfortable serving with Jaime and possibly vice-versa, but they made their peace with Robert and entered his service.