I think GRRM is trying something crazy...

[Andrés Garcia]

Before the Internet, one reader could guess the ending you wanna do for your novel, but the other 10.000 wouldn’t know anything and they would be surprised. However, now, those 10.000 people use the Internet and read the right theories. They say: “Oh God, the butler did it!”, to use an example of a mystery novel. Then, you think: “I have to change the ending! The maiden would be the criminal!” To my mind that way is a disaster because if you are doing well [in your] work, the books are full of clues that point to the butler doing it and help you to figure [out] the butler did it, but if you change the ending to point [to] the maiden, the clues make no sense anymore; they are wrong or are lies, and I am not a liar.

- George R. R. Martin, with a few modifications (in brackets) to remove spelling errors and the like.

[Howling Mad]

GRRM is not trying to circumvent tropes or recreate fantasy. GRRM is trying to build upon the foundation of fantasy created by Tolkien and others and tell a better story. I searched the SSM for an exact quote but came up empty. It might be in this interview IIRC: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Google_AuthorsGoogle_QA

[Rashtibram]

Honestly, I'll be surprised if he reverts to fantasy tropes, but it won't be at all pleasant. A large part of the reason I love ASOIAF is because it subverts fantasy tropes. If, for instance, Jon comes back to life (which I'm not sure he'll do - we get it, you guys think he's too important to the story; I thought that about Robb Stark, too) and takes the Iron Throne with Dany in a massive battle for the good of the realm, the bad guys are defeated and peace reigns, I'll be surprised, but I'll be much more likely to be disappointed than pleased.

[Rashtibram]

There isn't that much evidence to support your claim, though. Stabbings aren't actually that fatal. They have a low mortality rate. Caesar was stabbed upwards of 20 times, but only one blow was fatal. Granted, only one needed to be, but the point it still relevant. Nothing about Jon's last chapter really screams death. There's no certainty there. If GRRM wanted him dead, we'd know. Even though he had to restructure ADWD, if Jon was dead dead, he would have found the time and room to squeeze in a Melisandre chapter confirming that... but he didn't. You'll notice he did add in a Barristan chapter, though, which is where Quentyn's death is confirmed.

It's true that Jon's final moments feel like a Julius Caesar moment, but Jon's character arc is much bigger and broader than that. Yes, he's our primary Wall POV, but he's also a character that's spent all four books he's been in caught in the struggle with his sense of identity. He's spent the books wrestling with his oaths. His character arc and evolution as a character are about more than getting the Wall to fall or bringing the Wildlings over. Who are Jon's parents is one of the big questions GRRM has avoided answering and there's a reason for that. He's not going to reveal the answer after Jon is dead and it has no effect on that story. That's bad writing and GRRM isn't a bad writer. He's said himself that Jon is going to finding out who his mother was, so we know he needs to survive to get to that point.

The bolded passage is where I flat out disagree. I, for one, immediately took the line which described Jon not feeling the fourth knife, only the cold, to mean his death. As the other guy said, warging is never described as "cold," and all other explanations feel like an unnecessary stretch, but I never even considered those options; the line about the cold was reminiscent of Cat's last line in the RW - "and then the steel was at her throat, and it's bite was red and cold," and I accepted that Jon was dead without a second thought. Then, when I wandered onto the forums a couple years later, everybody seemed to accept for a fact that he's not dead. I can't really understand how you could read that chapter without automatically inferring death, but it seemed to be everyone's initial impression that he was just wounded, and that his fate was a cliffhanger.

That said, the line from the GRRM interview ('you think he's dead, do you?') seems to negate the point I just made. Based off of that, we're clearly supposed to be speculating on whether or not he's dead, which means he's not as definitively gone as Ned, Robb or Tywin; if he's dead, it would make no sense to let fans speculate for six years while waiting for the next book before revealing: 'yep, he's dead.' So I've resignedly accepted that he'll come back. I still contend, however, that the last line of Jon's chapter clearly indicates death.

[Andrés Garcia]

A large part of the reason I love ASOIAF is because it subverts fantasy tropes. If, for instance, Jon comes back to life (which I'm not sure he'll do - we get it, you guys think he's too important to the story; I thought that about Robb Stark, too) and takes the Iron Throne with Dany in a massive battle for the good of the realm, the bad guys are defeated and peace reigns, I'll be surprised, but I'll be much more likely to be disappointed than pleased.

You have a tendency to ascribe views and expectations to people that they don't have. Try to subvert that tendency in what follows. I have no idea who sits on the Iron Throne when it's all said and done. Frankly, I don't really care! But there are very strong reasons to think that Dany will make it to Westeros at some point and that Jon is not permanently dead. I will not repeat them here, but the point is that George R. R. Martin doesn't throw out a large amount of foreshadowing and do huge twists just because. Going by his quote above, he certainly doesn't seem to care if the small portion of his fans who spend hours analyzing and discussing his books on internet forums think something is too obvious or expected.

[Weeping Sore]

Why is everyone on this forum convinced he isn't dead or will be resurrected. I can see it. That's the thing about GRRM, he let's things go. That's part of life and writing.

It's very much telegraphed by the Prologue and Melisandre chapter of ADwD, along with the last sentence of Jon's last POV. I'd invite you to re-read these three things carefully; I believe you'll come to the same conclusion.

[Rashtibram]

You have a tendency to ascribe views and expectations to people that they don't have. Try to subvert that tendency in what follows. I have no idea who sits on the Iron Throne when it's all said and done. Frankly, I don't really care! But there are very strong reasons to think that Dany will make it to Westeros at some point and that Jon is not permanently dead. I will not repeat them here, but the point is that George R. R. Martin doesn't throw out a large amount of foreshadowing and do huge twists just because. Going by his quote above, he certainly doesn't seem to care if the small portion of his fans who spend hours analyzing and discussing his books on internet forums think something is too obvious or expected.

I'm not saying GRRM does random twists for the hell of it. I'm saying that I wouldn't be "pleasantly surprised" if everything wraps up in a great battle for good and evil in typical fantasy cliche. I agree that he doesn't turn on his foreshadowing, but he does turn consciously away from typical fantasy outcomes and characters.

[Albatros]

Dead Yes

Throne Yes

Well, if we take “In the game of thrones, you win or you die,” literally, then the only options are:

Dead Yes/Throne No & Dead No/Throne Yes

[Addam of Hull]

The bolded passage is where I flat out disagree. I, for one, immediately took the line which described Jon not feeling the fourth knife, only the cold, to mean his death. As the other guy said, warging is never described as "cold," and all other explanations feel like an unnecessary stretch, but I never even considered those options; the line about the cold was reminiscent of Cat's last line in the RW - "and then the steel was at her throat, and it's bite was red and cold," and I accepted that Jon was dead without a second thought. Then, when I wandered onto the forums a couple years later, everybody seemed to accept for a fact that he's not dead. I can't really understand how you could read that chapter without automatically inferring death, but it seemed to be everyone's initial impression that he was just wounded, and that his fate was a cliffhanger.

That said, the line from the GRRM interview ('you think he's dead, do you?') seems to negate the point I just made. Based off of that, we're clearly supposed to be speculating on whether or not he's dead, which means he's not as definitively gone as Ned, Robb or Tywin; if he's dead, it would make no sense to let fans speculate for six years while waiting for the next book before revealing: 'yep, he's dead.' So I've resignedly accepted that he'll come back. I still contend, however, that the last line of Jon's chapter clearly indicates death.

I never interpreted Jon's chapter to mean that he died. You're allowed to believe whatever you want, but Jon saying Ghost's name and feeling cold aren't signs that are inherently indicative of death. Yes, there's a certain resemblance to Catelyn's final chapter, but that's intentional. On the initial read, it's easy to make the assumption that oh, being stabbed by a bunch knives plus this particular language are meant to mean that he died, but a closer look reveals that there's nothing damning about the circumstances. With Catelyn, part of the reason you know she's dead is because she's getting her throat slit. It doesn't say that directly, but the language is illustrating that yes, that's what happening. With Jon, the implications are much different: he says his wolfs name, never feels a fourth knife, and feels cold. Why does he feel cold? Because he's falling into the snow. Neither wound he's taken is bad enough that he'd die immediately. Sure, it's easy to assume that he did, but that's because GRRM is intentionally framing things so your initial assumption is that he died, even though the details themselves suggest otherwise.

Besides, if most people seem to be of a consensus that Jon's chapter doesn't mean he died, then how can his chapter have screamed that he did die? The two are contradictory positions. If everyone read his chapter to mean he didn't die, then nothing about it screams death, or else the overwhelming opinion would be that he died.

[caravaggio]

Jon survives the stabbing.

There will be no Iron Throne or King's Landing at the end for him to take.

[Lady Flandrensis]

Jon survives the stabbing.

There will be no Iron Throne or King's Landing at the end for him to take.

:agree: :agree: :agree:

[Broken Fox]

There will be no Iron Throne or King's Landing at the end for him to take.

Agreed. I think Daenerys' vision in the House of the Undying (the show version) solidified what will become of King's Landing.

[caravaggio]

The destruction of KL has been foreshadowed since the first book. There is a reason the wildfire stored all over it is brought up so often.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

_{Here is a story about an elderly homeless man being stabbed 70 times and (at least for now) surviving http://gawker.com/man-celebrating-21st-birthday-allegedly-stabs-homeless-686294563 Why is it silly to think Jon, somebody young and healthy could survive 4 stab wounds? I think he's unconscious and developing his power as a warg. Like Bran. He might even be able to communicate with Bran. It happened before when Bran showed Jon Mance's camp in ACOK.}

[Ghost's Shadow]

On Criminal Minds there was a guy who practised non-lethal knife stabs onto his own body. Getting stabbed does not necessarily mean dying.

Not saying that that's from RL, but the post above me seems to have a RL example.

[Broken Fox]

As predictable as it may be I really like the idea of Jon dying, and being revived by Melisandre. I think Jon needs a change/hit to his psyche and coming back from the dead will accomplish that. He needs to evolve from simply being "a man of the Night's Watch." He's more than that.

[Not Dead Just Broken]

As predictable as it may be I really like the idea of Jon dying, and being revived by Melisandre. I think Jon needs a change/hit to his psyche and coming back from the dead will accomplish that. He needs to evolve from simply being "a man of the Night's Watch." He's more than that.

He's stopped being a man of the Night's Watch. His motivations at this point have to do with his family and his guilt about Ygritte. He's not acting for the good of the Watch, he's acting for his own good. By declaring his intention to go to Winterfell to confront Ramsay Snow, he's essentially said that he's deserting. The Night's Watch has no interest in the fate of Mance Rayder or "Arya Stark". Jon Snow cares about it because of his personal emotions.

[Rashtibram]

I feel like people are making too much out of the exact nature & number of Jon's stabbings. Given that he's lying in the snow (for the sake of argument, I'm assuming he's not quite dead yet) and it seems like most of the people in near proximity to him are the ones doing the stabbing, there's no reason for his assassins to relent until they are quite sure he's dead. I see no plot reason nor logical outcome for Jon to survive his attack, didn't they need to "kill the boy and let the man be born?" (assuming he's not permanently dead)

[Neo]

Because:

A. Martin's outright stated Jon will find out who his mother his.

Has he?

I thought he has said that 'all will be revealed' in regards to Jon's parentage. I don't think that's the same as Jon finding out who his mother is. It will be revealed to the reader, but I don't know if GRRM has confirmed that Jon will find out for himself, unless I've missed some new comments from him...

[Rivermouth]

Frankly I'm expecting that by the time all this is over there won't be an Iron Throne left. Probably a dragon will melt it.