I think GRRM is trying something crazy...

[Florina Laufeyson]

Martin writes an archetype. He then subverts said archetypes. But in the cases of main characters, he posits an archetype, and then deconstructs it to its source. In some cases, (Jaime, Sandor, etc) Martin begins with a deconstruction of a trope and/or archetype and then reconstructs it through the form of events and character development. What does this mean? It means Martin has skill in writing.

Yes, some tropes are played straight. Ramsay really IS an irredeemable asshole. The Freys WILL most likely get their just desserts. Slavery IS bad, etc. If nothing is played straight, people lose interest and invokes a lot of apathy toward the story overall.

[Le Cygne]

GRRM is not trying to circumvent tropes or recreate fantasy. GRRM is trying to build upon the foundation of fantasy created by Tolkien and others and tell a better story. I searched the SSM for an exact quote but came up empty. It might be in this interview IIRC: http://www.westeros....uthorsGoogle_QA

Just a minor quibble, I think he's got more respect for Tolkien than to say he'll write a better story. Here's one quote:

"You're writing in the shadow of all the people who have gone before, and in some ways you're having a dialogue with them, and as someone who has read J.R.R. Tolkien, and Robert E. Howard, and all the great fantasists before, in some ways, this was almost my answer to them. A lot of it is about war. A great many of the epic fantasies, from Lord of the Rings onward, are about war, but to my mind, a lot of it doesn't really deal honestly with the consequences of war. What war does to us as a society, what war does to us as individuals, and the struggle for power, in the same way, what are we fighting for.

"And I love fantasy, I grew up reading fantasy but I wanted to put a somewhat different spin on it. The whole trope of absolute good vs. absolute evil, which was wonderful in the hands of J.R.R. Tolkien, I think became kind of cliché and rote in the hands of the many Tolkien imitators who followed.

"I've always preferred writing about grey characters, human characters, whether they are giants or elves or dwarfs, or whatever they are, they are still human. The human heart in conflict with itself, as Faulkner says, that all of us have the capability in us for great good and for great evil, for love and also for hate, and I wanted to write those kinds of complex characters in a fantasy, not just all the good people get together to fight the bad guy."

http://www.emmys.com/game-of-thrones

I thought he has said that 'all will be revealed' in regards to Jon's parentage. I don't think that's the same as Jon finding out who his mother is. It will be revealed to the reader, but I don't know if GRRM has confirmed that Jon will find out for himself, unless I've missed some new comments from him...

Here it seems like he's saying he'll find out himself:

I have a million questions, but the one that I really am most wanting to know is .... will Jon ever find out about his parentage?

Eventually, yes.

http://bookclubs.bar...p/167742/page/2

[A Man Has Said]

You left out Jaime and Brienne and Lady SH.

I left out Loras too, and what happens with the Ironborn invading up the Mander in The Reach.

I left out Myrcella too. Will she be sent back to King's Landing, or will another Martell be sent to serve on the Small Council?

I left out a lot of things. Which is kind of my point.

"A Dance with Dragons" was not a novel in the strictest sense, because NOTHING came to a resolution.

A novel has a beginning, a middle and an end. "A Dance with Dragons" was all middle.

Which meant that every story element was a cliff hanger. (with the exception of Quentyn's Tale)

And I'm not averse to there being SOME story elements left waiting to be resolved in the next book, but not ALL of them..

Especially if we all have to wait until sometime in 2017.

[ejhawman]

Reading this thread has given me a bit of inspiration.

Jon's attackers tell him it's "for the Watch". What if they deliberately stabbed him non-lethally, in places he could more likely survive and recover from, but made it to look like they were trying to kill him, so that they could tell the rest of the Watch he was dead? They keep him hidden while he recovers, tell him that he is no longer LC and is released from his vows, and if he stays at the Wall he will die for real.

...naaaah. Doesn't seem like them. They may not be that skilled with stabbing, and would find it hard to target just the right areas through his furs.

[Howling Mad]

Especially if we all have to wait until sometime in 2017.

We can only hope. :read:

[Neo]

Here it seems like he's saying he'll find out himself:

http://bookclubs.bar...p/167742/page/2

Thanks. :)

That is interesting then, as it means that someone will inform Jon of the truth. I'm not sure about this idea of him finding out himself by looking through the cryptys of Winterfell.

Given than only a handful of people know the truth (Howland Reed, Bloodraven, Wylla, potentially Ashara Dayne, and possibly Bran in the future), it will be very interesting to see how GRRM does the big reveal, if R+L=J, of course.

[Free Northman]

I think it's deliberately left ambiguous but I'm willing to bet that there will at least be some "cost" of Jon's revival. Either he's stuck in Ghost or in a Beric like state where he wishes he was dead but knows he must live on to defeat the others.

"Kill the boy. Kill the boy and let the man be born."

That's who died at the end of Dance. The boy. The man is about to be born.

You can't interrupt a story arc in the middle of something like that.

[Brother Walfrid]

You can be as unconvential as it gets (of course with limits, this is not some avantgarde), but you can't just end an arc at a point in which it does not make a sense to have that arc in the story at all.

is there anybody in the real world, whose life is lived in a series of conveniently timed arcs?

[Free Northman]

is there anybody in the real world, whose life is lived in a series of conveniently timed arcs?

If you think ASOIAF is supposed to stick strictly to the real world and ignore fictional story arcs, then you are way off the mark. Else Daenerys, Tyrion, Arya, Bran, Sansa, Cersei and Jaime would all have been long dead by now.

This story is as unrealistic as any other, just cleverly disguised to not appear so to the casual observer.

[Kahl Trollo]

is there anybody in the real world, whose life is lived in a series of conveniently timed arcs?

My life is an incredibly complex drinking game.

[bemused]

People often get so caught up in the plotting, and as pointed out , GRRM's love of the unexpected , of subverting all-too-common fantasy cliches, that they tend to forget character. It's the character's development that makes the arc. Yes , outside events can overtake them , but it's how they respond that makes the tale.

Repeatedly ,in interviews given year in , year out, GRRM has given the Fitzgerald quote about all fiction being about the human heart in conflict with itself as a principle he adheres to. So I don't see him leaving a main character in mid-development , without coming to some sort of resolution to his inner conflicts. In fact , he isn't even yet aware ( though we may be ) of circumstances that will cause some future conflicts.

I agree he's in the process of killing the boy and letting the man be born, therefore I think that those rooting for death and resurrection by Mel are barking up the wrong tree. In that case , Jon would be less human than he was...Not really human at all... The characters we've seen put on that path become stuck at that point of their development , fixated on a task at hand and as Beric tells us, lose something of what they were. ( For all we know Beric's degeneration of self might have continued anyway , even in he'd only been resurrected once ..perhaps along the lines of a skinchanger's gradual fading in his second life. )

[grand old duke of stark]

The only way you're sure most characters are dead is if they're burnt or decapitated (poor Ned!). Though with GRRM Dany survived the burning.

Good writers, especially in non-realistic genres, do it all the time. And good readers know to expect the unexpected. There must be enough convention to keep us confortable, and enough subversion/innovation to thrill and delight us. Think of Gandalf going down with the Balrog and showing up later as a white wizard. Much as I'd like Jon gone, he's bound to be alive; the archetype and foreshadowing parts of the story demand it. Plus he has several means: Ghost, Melisandre, or more prosaically, being put on ice. He/they might think of it. Imagine--on ice he might even have a cosy chat with the wights on ice and learn more about them and about the Others.

[Winter's Prince]

Well GRRM has often stated he felt LOTR would have been better if Frodo and/or Gandalf had died.

As much as I love Jon I do feel the story can be greater if he is indeed die; look at all the good work he's done to reinforce the Watch. If it all goes undone, and the Walkers do invade........well that's what I'm hoping for.

The First Long Night lasted a generation, if this new Long Night ends before it begins then I feel as though the story will not end on a good note. A Dream of Spring could very will be what it means, peopling dreaming for spring.

[Samwell Gamgi]

He will surprise more people if he actually puts in a decent ending.

[Pod The Impaler]

I think he is trying to subvert expectations and tropes SO MUCH, so that when he actually decides to go through with one, it will be just as surprising as his constant subversions in the first couple of books. At this point, with the way the stories are written so far, I would be (pleasantly) surprised if Jon is not dead and takes the throne.

I do not believe Jon Snow is dead, nor is he undead.

Badly stabbed? Yes.

Keep in mind that as he goes down, he is not only surrounded by those who stabbed him.

Loyal members of the Watch are nearby too, not to mention wildlings, and one very large angry giant who just saw one of its only real friends get attacked.

My theory is that Jon would be protected from a coup de grace, and his attackers largely end up as a bloody pulp. Maybe the threat does not end there, maybe the attack starts a sort of covil war upon the wall, but Jon's allies (Val, Leathers, etc.) may have to hide him elsewhere to protect him.