[SPOILERS: Books and Season 4] What if Brienne...

[Onna Lewyys]

Ah, did not kow that about Wilko Johnson. Very sad.

I don't want Brienne to play second fiddle either. But like you say, GC isn't even in the opening credits and she seems to be used as a prop to Jaime. I'd love for nothing more than Brienne having her own storyline, I'm a massive fan. But if I have to choose between her arc being cut (like a lot of people think) and happening off screen, and have Brienne playing second fiddle to Jaime, I's rather she palyed second fiddle, tbqh. At least she'd be on screen.

Just because they started her as a secondary character doesn't mean she has to stay one. It's the same way in the books. She starts out supporting Catelyn's story, then Jaime's, then she gets her own. I see no reason why her storyline should get cut from the show or take place offscreen. I can't think of any precedent for them making a change that big and senseless.

[YouSnowNothing]

I agree, any claims that Brienne's character has been reduced in the show just seems bizarre to me. I don't think I could name a single notable scene for Brienne that has been cut so far. She was supporting Jaime in the books up to this point too. If anything, she's going to get upgraded earlier in the show, likely getting some added interaction with the cast of Kings Landing next season, before she gets her own side-adventures.

[six]

I agree, any claims that Brienne's character has been reduced in the show just seems bizarre to me. I don't think I could name a single notable scene for Brienne that has been cut so far. She was supporting Jaime in the books up to this point too. If anything, she's going to get upgraded earlier in the show, likely getting some added interaction with the cast of Kings Landing next season, before she gets her own side-adventures.

I didn't say that the character has been reduced, but that she's mostly used as a fairly 1D prop to Jaime, whereas in the books I thought she was way more 3D even at this point. And they did cut some of her stuff, they cut the whole chapter before reaching KL in which they find out about the RW, Brienne is grieving, etc. They've also cut out some major parts of her characterisation, and added others which are questionable at best ("you sound like a bloody woman").

Mind you, I'm not saying I didn't like anything. I actually loved most of this season Jaime/Brienne's arc. The fact Brienne was a supporting character at this point in the books means nothing, imo. She was supporting because she wasn't a POV, but in the show we see the characters through our own eyes, yet she was to Jaime what Bronn is to Tyrion, and Brienne shouldn't be a Bronn.

[Onna Lewyys]

I didn't say that the character has been reduced, but that she's mostly used as a fairly 1D prop to Jaime, whereas in the books I thought she was way more 3D even at this point. And they did cut some of her stuff, they cut the whole chapter before reaching KL in which they find out about the RW, Brienne is grieving, etc.

They could still have that scene with Brienne and Jaime finding out about the RW and dealing with how that changes their plans/oaths.

I honestly don't think you have to worry at all about Brienne's adventures being cut from the show. There is no precedent for it. And if they have Gendry go with her, as I suspect and hope that they will, it'll give both those characters something to do.

[JagLover]

No you don't understand what I'm saying. There's no such thing as essential, only a bunch of favourites who get storylines and screen time. They don't get it because it's necessary, they get it because B&W like them e.g. Theon.

Many fantasy series have suffered from sprawl as more and more characters are added, including new POV characters. But usually, at their core, they remain about the characters you are introduced to in the very first book, no matter how long the series (look at WOT for example).

In GOT therefore I believe the 'essentials' are the plot and character developments of the starting characters who are left, anything else is 'non-essential'. This fits with the circumstance of the TV show in that these characters are already cast and known to the audience. In addition you may have some favourites getting some extra scenes yes that is true.

[Le Cygne]

Her chapters were well-written but ultimately of no major importance to the story.

Of course they are, she's at the center of plots involving the Starks and the Lannisters.

In the books, Littlefinger is incredibly meticulous in making sure nobody would guess he was behind Sansa's disappearance (it's possible that Varys knows in the books, but Varys is playing his own game). In the show, it's going to look weird that nobody even suspects, given how unsubtle the writers have been.

This. I guess it was for the same reason they gave Shae the heart of gold and created the Talisa character. They are allergic to subtlety.

What are essentials though? It doesn't seem to me that the show only keeps "essentials", they have a lot of rubbish which is not necessary at all. I would happily have Brienne's journey instead of a Pod's penis joke, characters in KL repeating the same bloody things over and over because apparently we didn't get the first time, or 30 minutes a season of Theon's torture. You can't tell me those storylines and in the amount of screen time they receive, are "essentials". Far from it, in fact.

This. And the essentials always seem to be men at the center of women's book stories and naked women.

And I don't want Brienne playing second fiddle to Jaime for her whole time on the show. Gwendoline has earned getting her own storyline and finally getting her name in the opening credits instead of the ending ones.

Same here. Sigh.

[Joyful Union]

This. I guess it was for the same reason they gave Shae the heart of gold and created the Talisa character. They are allergic to subtlety.

What is subtle about Shae in the books? She was just a classic golddigger. For that matter, there wan't much subtlety to Jeyne Westerling either, though probably more than Talisa.

[kecsek]

Of course they are, she's at the center of plots involving the Starks and the Lannisters.

IMO this is pretty far fetched. She only interacted with 1 member of each family, and had no effect at all on any of the Starks. Just because she is looking for the Stark girls that doesn't put her in the center.

[Le Cygne]

What is subtle about Shae in the books? She was just a classic golddigger. For that matter, there wan't much subtlety to Jeyne Westerling either, though probably more than Talisa.

I said the characters they replaced them with were not subtle, but yes, the book characters were more subtle. Book Shae and Jeyne belonged to that world, and the way Shae came to that place, and the defiance Jeyne showed was subtle. I can think of more examples, but let's not get into another Talisa debate. Turning these characters into cliches and expanding their roles made the story worse, not better.

IMO this is pretty far fetched. She only interacted with 1 member of each family, and had no effect at all on any of the Starks. Just because she is looking for the Stark girls that doesn't put her in the center.

After pledging herself to Catelyn's service, she set out a mission to save her two daughters, Sansa and Arya, in exchange for Jaime. Then she got to know Jaime really well, and Jaime told her something big he never told anyone before, and Jaime protected her, and Jaime saved her life. And she fell in love with Jaime. Then she set out on a mission for Jaime to save Sansa. Then she met up with Tyrion's squire, Pod. Then she looked for the Hound, who saved Arya's and Sansa's lives, and she ran into him (but didn't realize this). Then she ran into Arya's friend, Gendry. Then zombie Catelyn almost took her life, because she refused to betray Jaime. Then she came to Jaime and said come and he came. And now they are presumably headed back to zombie Catelyn, and perhaps Sansa, and no doubt the Hound, too, at some point. And who knows, maybe Arya, too. Because they're all tied together in Bran's dream. I keep thinking of things, I'm sure there's more. And the books aren't over yet. So yes, she is at the center of plots involving the Starks and the Lannisters.

[six]

What is subtle about Shae in the books? She was just a classic golddigger. For that matter, there wan't much subtlety to Jeyne Westerling either, though probably more than Talisa.

The subtlety wasn't that much in Shae, but in the Shae/Tyrion's relationship. There's this element of Tyrion where he pretty much fools himself into thinking that there's true love or loyalty in the relationships he buys, like with Shae and Bronn. He finds out there's none of that in a pretty hard way. To have Shae in love with Tyrion and refusing money is first of all unrealistic, but it's also much more cliche and not very subtle at all.

Many fantasy series have suffered from sprawl as more and more characters are added, including new POV characters. But usually, at their core, they remain about the characters you are introduced to in the very first book, no matter how long the series (look at WOT for example).

In GOT therefore I believe the 'essentials' are the plot and character developments of the starting characters who are left, anything else is 'non-essential'. This fits with the circumstance of the TV show in that these characters are already cast and known to the audience. In addition you may have some favourites getting some extra scenes yes that is true.

This is your personal opinion and I have no problem with that, however arguing non-essential in the show is a moot point, because like I pointed out there are tons of non-essential plots/scenes. What sets apart Brienne's non-essential journey from Pod's penis non-essential joke, and why does the penis joke has a place in the show but Brienne's journey does not?

[Onna Lewyys]

This is your personal opinion and I have no problem with that, however arguing non-essential in the show is a moot point, because like I pointed out there are tons of non-essential plots/scenes. What sets apart Brienne's non-essential journey from Pod's penis non-essential joke, and why does the penis joke has a place in the show but Brienne's journey does not?

You're still just assuming that Brienne's journey is going to be cut, based on nothing.

[kecsek]

After pledging herself to Catelyn's service, she set out a mission to save her two daughters, Sansa and Arya, in exchange for Jaime. Then she got to know Jaime really well, and Jaime told her something big he never told anyone before, and Jaime protected her, and Jaime saved her life. And she fell in love with Jaime. Then she set out on a mission for Jaime to save Sansa. Then she met up with Tyrion's squire, Pod. Then she looked for the Hound, who saved Arya's and Sansa's lives, and she ran into him (but didn't realize this). Then she ran into Arya's friend, Gendry. Then zombie Catelyn almost took her life, because she refused to betray Jaime. Then she came to Jaime and said come and he came. And now they are presumably headed back to zombie Catelyn, and perhaps Sansa, and no doubt the Hound, too, at some point. And who knows, maybe Arya, too. Because they're all tied together in Bran's dream. I keep thinking of things, I'm sure there's more. And the books aren't over yet. So yes, she is at the center of plots involving the Starks and the Lannisters.

All the things you listed -except for Jaime- what effect it has on anybody? You could just as easily say that Davos is central to the Starks because he's looking for Rickon.(He might turn out to be central in that plot, but not yet IMO first he has to meet him) At least he knows where to look, and has the backing of powerful people if/when they return.

Yes, she is looking for the Stark girls, so are many others. At the moment it looks like that the Mad Mouse will have more effect on Sansa than Brienne. She might or might not meet Sansa or Arya or might die before she meets any of them. It sure doesn't look like she will have anything to do with Bran, Rickon, Jon, Tyrion or Cersei. Are those not Starks and Lannisters?

Which of Bran's dreams has Brienne in it? If you mean the one when he sees them at the Trident, Brienne is not there, if it's a different one, could you direct me to it?

[six]

You're still just assuming that Brienne's journey is going to be cut, based on nothing.

ETA to explain better: the poster is saying Brienne's journey should be cut because is non-essential. I'm arguing that whether an arc is essential or not means nothing in the context of the show, as there are plenty of non-essential storylines/scenes.

So I wasn't assuming anything based on anything. I was arguing in favour of showing Brienne's storyline.

[Onna Lewyys]

I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood then, because you were one who had been arguing that Brienne's storyline from the book would likely be cut.

[six]

It's 2 different arguments. Yes, I think it could be cut/changed. But not because I want it cut, but because of the approach the showrunners seem to have. However, there are tons of people who think Brienne's arc should be cut/changed because it's non-essential to the story, and I was just pointing out that Pod's dick story or 30 minutes of the Theon's torture weren't essential either.

[Le Cygne]

<snip>

I think my post was self-explanatory, so I'll pass on the facetious stuff. GRRM made her a POV character for a reason.

[JagLover]

This is your personal opinion and I have no problem with that, however arguing non-essential in the show is a moot point, because like I pointed out there are tons of non-essential plots/scenes. What sets apart Brienne's non-essential journey from Pod's penis non-essential joke, and why does the penis joke has a place in the show but Brienne's journey does not?

Of course it is a personal opinion and based on the need, in my opinion, to finish with virtually all AFFC/ADWD material by the end of S5. The producers may have different plans for all we know, perhaps they will lovingly devote three full seasons to AFFC/ADWD and then condense WOW/ADOS into the end season. Or perhaps they will look at AFFC/ADWD and decide what should be cut is all of Arya, Jon and Cersei material and we really need is the full Brienne, Quentyn, Aeron Greyjoy etc storylines. Personally I think there is some great material buried within AFFC/ADWD hidden beneath a mound of flab, Travel log, and the mishandling of Mereen/Dany/Tyrion. What I would love to see is the producers liberate the great storylines of those books and produce something that matches or exceeds the earlier seasons.

[kecsek]

I think my post was self-explanatory, so I'll pass on the facetious stuff. GRRM made her a POV character for a reason.

Recapping her story so far -which I'm sure everybody on this board knows already- doesn't explain how is she at he center of stories of the Starks and Lannisters as families. A few members in the future could happen.

Sure she is POV for a reason, but I don't know how can you be so sure that she will be pivotal character relating to those 2 families.

[Le Cygne]

Recapping her story so far -which I'm sure everybody on this board knows already- doesn't explain how is she at he center of stories of the Starks and Lannisters as families. A few members in the future could happen.

Sure she is POV for a reason, but I don't know how can you be so sure that she will be pivotal character relating to those 2 families.

You said "She only interacted with 1 member of each family, and had no effect at all on any of the Starks. Just because she is looking for the Stark girls that doesn't put her in the center."

By listing some of her plots - and at no time did I say she was solely involved in these plots, nor solely at the center of them, nor that they involved every Stark and every Lannister - I showed what I said, which was merely stating the obvious, that she was chosen as a POV character for a reason, and that what she's doing in her chapters clearly touches on some of the major characters and storylines, which the author said are all coming together in the next book. Furthermore I was demonstrating she had an "effect" on Catelyn (you said she had no effect on any Stark). Make of it what you will.

As to the general observation that an acclaimed author would make someone a POV character for no real reason, maybe this will help, here is GRRM:

"I'm a strong believer in telling stories through a limited but very tight third person point of view... I don't like the omniscient viewpoint... It's an outmoded and very clumsy technique.

"My goal as a writer has always been to create very very strong imersive fiction. I do not want my reader to feel as though he's reading a book, held at arm's length, I want to immerse him in the action. When he looks back on that reading experience, a week later, a year later, ten years later, I want him to almost feel like he's lived that events, not as though he's read about them sitting in a comfortable armchair.

"None of us have an omniscient viewpoint. None of us have a multiple viewpoint. We can't go into the head of anyone else. We are all alone in the universe, essentially. We see only what our senses tell us we see. We hear what we can hear and we see what we can see. And it's very limited... So I'm all in favor of a very, tight limited point of view.

"I put you in the head of my character essentially for the duration of the story I make you my character, and you experience the events of the story as he would experience the events of the story. However, in the case something like Ice and Fire, I have a story of epic scale. If I was doing a World War II novel, maintaining my limited point of view idea, I would need a number of points of view that I would intercut. And in that way, you get the equivalent, I think, of an omniscient point of view, you are seeing it from many different angles, but you are always seeing it in the eyes of a particular individual.

"And that's the technique I've adopted for Ice and Fire. These characters who are seeing this huge struggle that's engulfing the entire world, but they are seeing it from different sides, they have different viewpoints."

[Weeping Sore]

I said the characters they replaced them with were not subtle, but yes, the book characters were more subtle. Book Shae and Jeyne belonged to that world, and the way Shae came to that place, and the defiance Jeyne showed was subtle. I can think of more examples, but let's not get into another Talisa debate. Turning these characters into cliches and expanding their roles made the story worse, not better.

After pledging herself to Catelyn's service, she set out a mission to save her two daughters, Sansa and Arya, in exchange for Jaime. Then she got to know Jaime really well, and Jaime told her something big he never told anyone before, and Jaime protected her, and Jaime saved her life. And she fell in love with Jaime. Then she set out on a mission for Jaime to save Sansa. Then she met up with Tyrion's squire, Pod. Then she looked for the Hound, who saved Arya's and Sansa's lives, and she ran into him (but didn't realize this). Then she ran into Arya's friend, Gendry. Then zombie Catelyn almost took her life, because she refused to betray Jaime. Then she came to Jaime and said come and he came. And now they are presumably headed back to zombie Catelyn, and perhaps Sansa, and no doubt the Hound, too, at some point. And who knows, maybe Arya, too. Because they're all tied together in Bran's dream. I keep thinking of things, I'm sure there's more. And the books aren't over yet. So yes, she is at the center of plots involving the Starks and the Lannisters.

I'm not sure it means anything, but "The Whispers", Maidenpool, Stone Hedge (Bracken) & Raventree Hall (Blackwood) are all on the HBO interactive map now, so we may get more fleshed-out Brienne & Jaime arcs than many are speculating.