[SPOILERS: Books and Season 4] What if Brienne...

[Mr Fixit]

Honestly, I'm not ever sure why Martin decided to turn Brienne into PoV character for AFfC. She is an interesting character, yes, but I'm not at all certain what it is that makes her important enough in the grand scheme of things to warrant such status. Her chapters were well-written but ultimately of no major importance to the story. I believe that Martin, once he decided to split the books in two, realised he didn't have enough material for AFfC which resulted in a more meandering nature of the Feast.

[six]

Honestly, I'm not ever sure why Martin decided to turn Brienne into PoV character for AFfC. She is an interesting character, yes, but I'm not at all certain what it is that makes her important enough in the grand scheme of things to warrant such status. Her chapters were well-written but ultimately of no major importance to the story. I believe that Martin, once he decided to split the books in two, realised he didn't have enough material for AFfC which resulted in a more meandering nature of the Feast.

For now. I'd like to think that the fact he gave her so many chapters is because she is important to the story.

[Maico]

I think Brienne and Jaime will climb The Vale

[Maico]

I think Brienne and Jaime will climb The Vale

[kecsek]

If I could choose, I'd have Brienne's whole journey on screen. However, if I had to pick between Brienne disappearing off screen on her own and sticking with Jaime, I'd rather keep them together.

Why would Brienne staying with Jaime mean she doesn't keep her oath? If they left KL at the same time, and Brienne only separated briefly to look for Sansa and then have her LS storyline, it would still work. Why wouldn't we feel sorry for Brienne when she's hanged? If when Sansa was still in KL she tried to help her or protect her, and then she goes off looking for her while in the RL with Jaime, she would still be keeping her oath and not giving up on finding her. She doesn't need to have her book journey for the audience to feel sorry for her when she's hanged.

I mean, I dislike the way they're turning a major character into a minor one, but since this seems to be the case and the J/B dynamic seems to be popular, I'd rather Brienne was on screen as a Jaime's satellite than have her storyline off screen. She doesn't need to go off for viewers to care when she's hanged, they'd know she's innocent and tried her best, it's just question of writing it right.

if Brienne (and by extension Jaime) do nothing to find Sansa it would turn them into less sympathetic characters IMO. Particularly Brienne. First she was sworn to Renly, then wanted to avenge him (though I can't remember if she swore an oath to do so in the show). Then she swore to Cat to return her daughters. We don't know at this point if they will try to free Sansa while she is in KL, but once she disappears if Brienne hangs around in KL doing nothing for her, and later goes with Jaime to subdue RR that would make her a pretty shitty person. It would make her look like she cares nothing about honor, just offers her services to whoever is nearby.

I can see her hanging around KL trying to find some leads on Sansa, maybe consult with Jaime if they want them to have more scenes together, but I think she would have to leave KL in season 4.

Wrt viewers will know that Brienne is innocent when she is hanged:Jaime have to stay in KL until at least a few episodes into S5, so I don't know how Brienne hanging around for about 10 episodes doing nothing in KL can be classified as doing her best to find Sansa.

I'm also not sure how her going with Jaime would work in terms of writing. It would have to be all invented scenes. Sure she could train with Jaime but I don't think Jaime can tell her stuff that he told Ser Ilyn, plus others in the army would make fun of her, is Jaime gonna slap everybody around with his gold hand?

(If they don't make fun of her then she doesn't have a reason to feel like an outcast)

I don't think they turned her into a minor character, so far in the books what else has she done? (I mean where we are at the end of S3)

[six]

if Brienne (and by extension Jaime) do nothing to find Sansa it would turn them into less sympathetic characters IMO. Particularly Brienne. First she was sworn to Renly, then wanted to avenge him (though I can't remember if she swore an oath to do so in the show). Then she swore to Cat to return her daughters. We don't know at this point if they will try to free Sansa while she is in KL, but once she disappears if Brienne hangs around in KL doing nothing for her, and later goes with Jaime to subdue RR that would make her a pretty shitty person. It would make her look like she cares nothing about honor, just offers her services to whoever is nearby.

I can see her hanging around KL trying to find some leads on Sansa, maybe consult with Jaime if they want them to have more scenes together, but I think she would have to leave KL in season 4.

Wrt viewers will know that Brienne is innocent when she is hanged:Jaime have to stay in KL until at least a few episodes into S5, so I don't know how Brienne hanging around for about 10 episodes doing nothing in KL can be classified as doing her best to find Sansa.

I can see what you're saying, but this all depends on how they decide to write it. Since they've already changed this storyline by having Jaime and Brienne coming back early, we can safely assume there will be more changes, the bigger one being that they will meet with Sansa. Meeting with Sansa could result in various different developments; some I can think of are J and B trying to help Sansa leave KL, or Brienne saying that she might not be able to take her away but she can stay around and protect her. If either of those things happen, Brienne would be shown as trying her best.

After Sansa disappears I wouldn't have a problem with Brienne hanging around KL for a bit, trying to figure out what to do. For all we know though, since like I said they've already changed this storyline, Brienne might be arrested when Sansa disappears, maybe because they think she was the one helping her. All of these things that could keep Brienne in KL do not make her into a less sympathetic character, imo. As long as she does try to help, I think it could be fine.

I'm also not sure how her going with Jaime would work in terms of writing. It would have to be all invented scenes.

But they're already doing invented scenes, they've changed the storyline so it's likely going to be B&W creation rather than book scenes.

Sure she could train with Jaime but I don't think Jaime can tell her stuff that he told Ser Ilyn, plus others in the army would make fun of her, is Jaime gonna slap everybody around with his gold hand?

(If they don't make fun of her then she doesn't have a reason to feel like an outcast)

Does Jaime need to tell all the things he told to Ser Ilyn in the books? Not really, imo. He needs someone to confide in, and he could do that with Brienne. But some of the bad stuff he's done doesn't necessarily need to be told in the show. Also, if Jaime is to get a Ser Ilyin replacement, the possibilities are limited as Jaime wouldn't just trust anyone, but we know he trusts Brienne. As for others in the army making fun of Brienne, since when has people mocking her ever stopped her? "All my life men like you have sneered at me, and all my life I've been knocking men like you into the dust". Does the mocking hurt her? Of course. Does that make her give up, or less determined? Hell, no.

I don't think they turned her into a minor character, so far in the books what else has she done? (I mean where we are at the end of S3)

It doesn't matter what she's done until this point in the books, imo. I'd love to be proven wrong, but it's pretty clear when a character is treated as major or when not, ans it has little to do whether they have a POV or lots/little material in the books at a certain point. Look at the amount of invented material for the characters they deem relevant VS the amount of material left out for the characters they don't care for. Nothing in the Jaime/Brienne's storyline was ever told from Brienne's perspective, she's used as a prop to Jaime. In fact, in places I felt that Brienne had more character development in the books through Jaime's eyes, than in the show where we actually get to experience the character with our own eyes.

[kecsek]

I can see what you're saying, but this all depends on how they decide to write it. Since they've already changed this storyline by having Jaime and Brienne coming back early, we can safely assume there will be more changes, the bigger one being that they will meet with Sansa. Meeting with Sansa could result in various different developments; some I can think of are J and B trying to help Sansa leave KL, or Brienne saying that she might not be able to take her away but she can stay around and protect her. If either of those things happen, Brienne would be shown as trying her best.

I think with 1 or 2 added scenes they can get back to the book story line, but with your proposal they will need 2 seasons worth of invented scenes. I also think that the timing of their arrival to KL was changed in part so they will not be wondering around Westeros for a season and a half.

After Sansa disappears I wouldn't have a problem with Brienne hanging around KL for a bit, trying to figure out what to do. For all we know though, since like I said they've already changed this storyline, Brienne might be arrested when Sansa disappears, maybe because they think she was the one helping her. All of these things that could keep Brienne in KL do not make her into a less sympathetic character, imo. As long as she does try to help, I think it could be fine.

If she is arrested for helping Sansa escape it will be hard to get her out of that situation. I would imagine both Tywin and Cersei would want her executed, and as we have seen in Tyrion's trial plenty of people are willing to falsely testify to get promoted/gold. It would be unrealistic if she gets off.

But they're already doing invented scenes, they've changed the storyline so it's likely going to be B&W creation rather than book scenes.

IMO they haven't drastically altered story lines. Yes they changed many things, but not to the extent of having something completely different.

Does Jaime need to tell all the things he told to Ser Ilyn in the books? Not really, imo. He needs someone to confide in, and he could do that with Brienne. But some of the bad stuff he's done doesn't necessarily need to be told in the show. Also, if Jaime is to get a Ser Ilyin replacement, the possibilities are limited as Jaime wouldn't just trust anyone, but we know he trusts Brienne. As for others in the army making fun of Brienne, since when has people mocking her ever stopped her? "All my life men like you have sneered at me, and all my life I've been knocking men like you into the dust". Does the mocking hurt her? Of course. Does that make her give up, or less determined? Hell, no.

IMO it would work to use one of the Lannister bannerman for the Ser Ilyn role. They just have to establish that this person is a friend of Jaime's, and if he goes to RR some of their bannerman have to go with him anyway.

I didn't mean to imply that other mocking Brienne would make her give up, but it would create additional problems as in how they deal with that situation.

I guess we have to agree to disagree on preferred method of dealing with Brienne's story as I'd rather see a shortened or even much shortened version than her tagging along with Jaime.

[boojam]

I'm not sure if this idea has been floated elsewhere, so, here goes.

There is a lot of speculation about Jaime and Brienne's storylines in Season 4, particularly because Jaime gets back to King's Landing before the Purple Wedding, and thus has a chance to save Sansa and fulfill his oath to Catelyn. Essentially the crux of it is, if (unlike the book) he is in King's Landing at the same time that Sansa is, he should somehow help her escape and get her back to any surviving Tullys or Starks. Obviously this leaves Brienne with nothing to do, because in the books Jaime sends her on a quest to find Sansa (but we all know Sansa is in the veil.

So, instead, what if Jaime sends Brienne out after Arya?

I may be mis-remembering, but seems George left some real loose ends in the books about Sansas disapearance. Go for pages and pages after LF has taken her to the Eyrie and nobody has any intellegence gathered about that? No raven about LF where abouts? Always thought that would play a role in Tyrions trial? After some interest in Arya's vanishing , some words like 'she probably dead in a ditch', and then nothing! She does not even come up in conversation at KL. Except for that encounter between Cersei and LF 1st episode of season 2, he says he is going to find out about it and..... does nothing , except see her at Harrenhal!

Does seem logical that someone at KL would know Sansa is at the Eyre.

That Arya would be the missing Stark Jamie would be curious about.

Gives Brienne better detective work to do, and she could trace her to the Salt Pans and even find out where she went , without jaring the story very much.

[kecsek]

I may be mis-remembering, but seems George left some real loose ends in the books about Sansas disapearance. Go for pages and pages after LF has taken her to the Eyrie and nobody has any intellegence gathered about that? No raven about LF where abouts? Always thought that would play a role in Tyrions trial?

If I understand you correctly it seems like that indeed you're mis-rememebering. LF left KL way before the PW to get married to Lysa with the Lannisters consent. Therefore everybody in KL thinks that he is in the Vale, no reason to suspect he had anything to do with Sansa's disappearance.

[Colonel Green]

I may be mis-remembering, but seems George left some real loose ends in the books about Sansas disapearance. Go for pages and pages after LF has taken her to the Eyrie and nobody has any intellegence gathered about that? No raven about LF where abouts? Always thought that would play a role in Tyrions trial? After some interest in Arya's vanishing , some words like 'she probably dead in a ditch', and then nothing! She does not even come up in conversation at KL. Except for that encounter between Cersei and LF 1st episode of season 2, he says he is going to find out about it and..... does nothing , except see her at Harrenhal!

Does seem logical that someone at KL would know Sansa is at the Eyre.

That Arya would be the missing Stark Jamie would be curious about.

Gives Brienne better detective work to do, and she could trace her to the Salt Pans and even find out where she went , without jaring the story very much.

In the books, Littlefinger is incredibly meticulous in making sure nobody would guess he was behind Sansa's disappearance (it's possible that Varys knows in the books, but Varys is playing his own game). In the show, it's going to look weird that nobody even suspects, given how unsubtle the writers have been.

Regarding Arya, there's really no mystery as to where Arya is in the books. She's been gone for years. There's no reason not to think she's dead (really, the fact that she's not is clearly a matter of plot armour), and if she isn't, almost nobody would recognize her anyway.

[JagLover]

Come on, it wasn't dull. And I don't say this only because Brienne is one of my favourites, they were actually very good chapters, very well written with quite a lot of stuff happening in them, especially towards the end. With this I'm not saying that they couldn't do with some tweaking for the screen, obviously.

I'm sure they were well written (when are they not with GRRM?) it is a question of whether we really need Brienne 'have you seen a maid of three and ten' of Tarth quite as much as in the books in order to get to the same scenes as her last couple of chapters which were very good I agree. I am an optimist for the future of this series I think WOW and ADOS will match the first three books and so they are going to need three full seasons to do them justice. That means reaching the end of AFFC/ADWD by the end of S5, which means cutting out the non-essentials and Brienne's plodding around the riverlands comes rather high on my list of non-essential plot lines.

[six]

I think with 1 or 2 added scenes they can get back to the book story line, but with your proposal they will need 2 seasons worth of invented scenes. I also think that the timing of their arrival to KL was changed in part so they will not be wondering around Westeros for a season and a half.

BIB: It would be season 4 for them in KL and the LS arc to happen in season 5. Most charactes are finishing SoS in season 4 and will have their AFFC/ADWD arc in season 5, so I don't see the problem there?

If she is arrested for helping Sansa escape it will be hard to get her out of that situation. I would imagine both Tywin and Cersei would want her executed, and as we have seen in Tyrion's trial plenty of people are willing to falsely testify to get promoted/gold. It would be unrealistic if she gets off.

This is a show where teleporting is a thing, apparently. You give it too much credit.

IMO it would work to use one of the Lannister bannerman for the Ser Ilyn role. They just have to establish that this person is a friend of Jaime's, and if he goes to RR some of their bannerman have to go with him anyway.

I didn't mean to imply that other mocking Brienne would make her give up, but it would create additional problems as in how they deal with that situation.

I guess we have to agree to disagree on preferred method of dealing with Brienne's story as I'd rather see a shortened or even much shortened version than her tagging along with Jaime.

Why introducing yet another character, when they can use one they already have?

I'm not down with the much shortened version, I just can't get to like it. Brienne is one of my favourite characters, so for me that would be very disappointing.

I'm sure they were well written (when are they not with GRRM?) it is a question of whether we really need Brienne 'have you seen a maid of three and ten' of Tarth quite as much as in the books in order to get to the same scenes as her last couple of chapters which were very good I agree. I am an optimist for the future of this series I think WOW and ADOS will match the first three books and so they are going to need three full seasons to do them justice. That means reaching the end of AFFC/ADWD by the end of S5, which means cutting out the non-essentials and Brienne's plodding around the riverlands comes rather high on my list of non-essential plot lines.

What are essentials though? It doesn't seem to me that the show only keeps "essentials", they have a lot of rubbish which is not necessary at all. I would happily have Brienne's journey instead of a Pod's penis joke, characters in KL repeating the same bloody things over and over because apparently we didn't get the first time, or 30 minutes a season of Theon's torture. You can't tell me those storylines and in the amount of screen time they receive, are "essentials". Far from it, in fact.

[JagLover]

What are essentials though? It doesn't seem to me that the show only keeps "essentials", they have a lot of rubbish which is not necessary at all. I would happily have Brienne's journey instead of a Pod's penis joke, characters in KL repeating the same bloody things over and over because apparently we didn't get the first time, or 30 minutes a season of Theon's torture. You can't tell me those storylines and in the amount of screen time they receive, are "essentials". Far from it, in fact.

At present the show is much of the way through a season and the majority of another season (2/3s?) devoted to ASOS. In order to carry this out they have invented material for characters who did not have much to do in that time in ASOS. If anyone has suffered as a result it is Catelyn or a number of other characters who did not get enough time as a consequence. It hasn't taken any time away from Brienne in later seasons. In contrast, and if they are going to give later books the time they deserve, AFFC/ADWD combined will need to be compressed into less time than they gave ASOS. What is the essentials they need to cover?, look at the key characters and look at what they need in terms of character and plot development in order to get to their later material. That means more of Arya, Jon, Cersei etc, less of sideshows like Brienne plodding around the riverlands or Quentyns journey.

[boojam]

In the books, Littlefinger is incredibly meticulous in making sure nobody would guess he was behind Sansa's disappearance (it's possible that Varys knows in the books, but Varys is playing his own game). In the show, it's going to look weird that nobody even suspects, given how unsubtle the writers have been.

Regarding Arya, there's really no mystery as to where Arya is in the books. She's been gone for years. There's no reason not to think she's dead (really, the fact that she's not is clearly a matter of plot armour), and if she isn't, almost nobody would recognize her anyway.

Yes I knew LF was not there and supposedly everyone (except maybe Varys) thought they knew were he was.

(1) Nobody but nobody, thought "Hmmmm....was it not convenient that Baelish made sure he was not here for the PW"?*

(2) For crying out loud , except for Varys and LF , no one seems to have an 'intelligence' network at work anywhere!

(Both Varys (especially) and LF , somewhat, kind of just don't act on it very much.)

(How does LF keep Sansa's presence at the Ayre so secret when it and the Vale are prominent places in the kingdoms?)

(In the books it is Jamie who seems the only one who puts together the evidence well enough to doubt that Tyrion did the deed. Even after Tyrion lies to him about it. Of course other things happen after that... but it not clear even what Jamie thinks of his brother's actions, but as dramatic license that's ok with me.)

[six]

No you don't understand what I'm saying. There's no such thing as essential, only a bunch of favourites who get storylines and screen time. They don't get it because it's necessary, they get it because B&W like them e.g. Theon.

In order to carry this out they have invented material for characters who did not have much to do in that time in ASOS.

This is an excuse and an argument without basis. Are you really trying to tell me that Pod needed the dick joke? Or that Theon's torture needed 30 minutes of overall screen time? Or that KL needed that amount of repetitive screen time?

My argument is that if they can find the time to dedicate to bollocks like the scenes I mentioned, there's nothing stopping them from making the time for what you call "non-essential". Do you actually believe they use all their screen time productively?

[kecsek]

BIB: It would be season 4 for them in KL and the LS arc to happen in season 5. Most charactes are finishing SoS in season 4 and will have their AFFC/ADWD arc in season 5, so I don't see the problem there?

This is a show where teleporting is a thing, apparently. You give it too much credit.

Why introducing yet another character, when they can use one they already have?

I'm not down with the much shortened version, I just can't get to like it. Brienne is one of my favourite characters, so for me that would be very disappointing.

Well, I don't know what BIB is... But anyway, if I understand correctly you would have pretty much only invented scenes, right? Maybe something similar of Brienne getting arrested, but for different reasons? Than in S5 going together to RR, where at some point Brienne would leave and run into LS?

What I was trying to say is that in the books from now on Jaime and Brienne have 2 scenes together until they meet up again, so to me that suggests only invented scenes until Brienne pops in to take Jaime to LS. Also Jaime has other things to do, interact with his family members etc, so I'm not sure this scenario would give any more screentime or development to Brienne.

As for the teleporting, I don't mind that on the show, Martin have it much easier, he can shuffle chapters around as he wishes, and I sincerely hope that the show will teleport Tyrion to Meereen with decent speed.

Wrt introducing new characters, I think at least one of them have to be introduced anyway, I'm sure Jaime will not just ride in silence -or talk only to Brienne if we go with your suggestion-, kind of like they had Tywin having a meeting at Harrenhall, just have one of them named, establish that whoever it is a childhood friend/cousin to Jaime.

I understand that it must be frustrating having your favorite play only a minor part. If you don't mind me asking, do you think showBrienne is close to bookBrienne? -to me there are pretty significant differences, so if she was my favorite I would be upset already-

[Onna Lewyys]

Why do they need someone to replace Ilyn Payne in Jaime's storyline? That character already exists in the show. Why can't he just play his own role? It's not even a big role. He just has to stand there with a sword while Jaime whacks at him and talks about things he's ashamed of.

And I don't want Brienne playing second fiddle to Jaime for her whole time on the show. Gwendoline has earned getting her own storyline and finally getting her name in the opening credits instead of the ending ones.

[Joyful Union]

Why do they need someone to replace Ilyn Payne in Jaime's storyline? That character already exists in the show. Why can't he just play his own role? It's not even a big role. He just has to stand there with a sword while Jaime whacks at him and talks about things he's ashamed of.

Sadly, Wilko Johnson who plays Ilyn Payne, is terminally ill with cancer and has not opted for chemotherapy. So unless they recast Ilyn Payne, it's not an option.

[six]

BIB is Bit In Bold.

so I'm not sure this scenario would give any more screentime or development to Brienne.

Maybe not, but it would certainly give her more of anything than disappear off screen, right?

As for the teleporting, I don't mind that on the show, Martin have it much easier, he can shuffle chapters around as he wishes, and I sincerely hope that the show will teleport Tyrion to Meereen with decent speed.

:lol: I don't mind the teleporting either. I think it's ridiculous, but I don't care that much. But I just mentioned it to make a point that things don't always have to make super sense in the show, so Brienne being jailed for helping Sansa escape and then being freed without too much fuss, is something that could totally happen. Like teleporting, it doesn't have to necessary make sense.

Wrt introducing new characters, I think at least one of them have to be introduced anyway, I'm sure Jaime will not just ride in silence -or talk only to Brienne if we go with your suggestion-, kind of like they had Tywin having a meeting at Harrenhall, just have one of them named, establish that whoever it is a childhood friend/cousin to Jaime.

I think it's unneeded.

I understand that it must be frustrating having your favorite play only a minor part. If you don't mind me asking, do you think showBrienne is close to bookBrienne? -to me there are pretty significant differences, so if she was my favorite I would be upset already-

I am, somehow. I'm upset at that the fact they made her 1D and didn't adapt the writing to the character they themselves rewrote. I understand that some changes were needed as she was not an easy character to cast, so with the fact that they got an older actor to play her, they needed to change some characterisation around, but like I said she feels very incomplete.

There are lots of things I like about her tv version though, and I do think GC is doing a good job with what she's given, and it's luck she and NCW have brilliant chemistry.

Why do they need someone to replace Ilyn Payne in Jaime's storyline? That character already exists in the show. Why can't he just play his own role? It's not even a big role. He just has to stand there with a sword while Jaime whacks at him and talks about things he's ashamed of.

And I don't want Brienne playing second fiddle to Jaime for her whole time on the show. Gwendoline has earned getting her own storyline and finally getting her name in the opening credits instead of the ending ones.

BIB: because the actor who plays him has terminal cancer, so will not reprise the role. And I think it would disrespectful to recast him, given the situation. So everyone is assuming someone else will have to take Ilyn's place.

I don't want Brienne to play second fiddle either. But like you say, GC isn't even in the opening credits and she seems to be used as a prop to Jaime. I'd love for nothing more than Brienne having her own storyline, I'm a massive fan. But if I have to choose between her arc being cut (like a lot of people think) and happening off screen, and have Brienne playing second fiddle to Jaime, I's rather she palyed second fiddle, tbqh. At least she'd be on screen.

[kecsek]

BIB is Bit In Bold.

Maybe not, but it would certainly give her more of anything than disappear off screen, right?

Learned something new today :)

I wasn't saying she should disappear, but have her in every couple episodes-kind of like Bran-, get the highlights of her journey, such as getting to know Pod, meeting Tarly Sr., if he will be a show character, Quiet Isle if Sandor still have a part to play, fight with -possibly-Locke, get hanged. Or something like that.