How did Braavos stay hidden?

[tydides]

Civilized? Seriously?

yes, to some extant. You have to be at least somewhat civilized to have kingdoms the size of the north, the reach, or the iron islands.

[Yakman]

I think it's just a matter of scale.

When was Braavos hidden? When escaped slaves made their way there to the swamps.

We have no idea how long they were digging around in the muck, no idea how long the seclusion lasted, no idea what "hidden" entails really. We don't know how developed the "hidden city" was when it stopped being hidden.

[yolkboy]

I think it's just a matter of scale.

When was Braavos hidden? When escaped slaves made their way there to the swamps.

We have no idea how long they were digging around in the muck, no idea how long the seclusion lasted, no idea what "hidden" entails really. We don't know how developed the "hidden city" was when it stopped being hidden.

Braavos was called the Secret City, and remained relatively unheard of to the World, most notably the Valyrian Freehold. This lasted 400 years, and went public after the Doom. Kindly Man said so.

[Yakman]

Braavos was called the Secret City, and remained relatively unheard of to the World, most notably the Valyrian Freehold. This lasted 400 years, and went public after the Doom. Kindly Man said so.

Yeah, but there's no sense of scale to the city. Is it just a little swamp community? Is it a real city, like what we see?

[Trinton07]

Then we have to consider that the Valyrians had dragons. Anyone airborne should have easily spotted such a large settlement where there shouldn't be one.

If you're going directly to Loath on dragon back from pretty much anywhere in Essos, there's no reason you'd pass over Bravos.

the economy of Braavos is entirely sea-based. This certainly makes sense given its geography, which seems devoid of any arable land or other natural resources. A sea-based economy, however, would entail significant naval traffic in the waters around Braavos. Even if we suppose the Valyrians travelling to and from Lorath could not see Braavos directly, it would have been impossible to miss the many boats travelling to and from Braavos in an area that shouldn't be populated at all, and thus raised some suspicions.

I would assume the Braavosi economy didn't develop until after the Doom. I don't see how it could have; if most of Essos was controlled by Valariya, and Bravos was hiding from Valayria, who would they trade with? I think Bravos stayed relatively small and self dependent until Valaryia fell.

There are only two ways to get to Lorath. One would be to hop over to the mainland, across the Hills of Norvos, and down one of the Rhoyne's tributaries. There are no Valyrian roads in this area, making it an extremely impractical route.

Isn't there a road at the bottom of Lorath Bay that goes to the Upper Rhyone?

[yolkboy]

Yeah, but there's no sense of scale to the city. Is it just a little swamp community? Is it a real city, like what we see?

Well there's no information about the exact scale and goings on of Braavos back then, but I think the fact it's called the Secret City indicates it was infact a city, which in this case would mean lots of islands acting and cooperating together.

The revealing of Braavos seems to be a notable event, and I don't think it would have been if it was just a few 'swamp' people.

[Winterz]

Civilized? Seriously?

Yes. Cities, trade, hierarchy, feudal system, order, organized religion. How's that uncivilized?

Society and stuff have changed little about the individual kingdoms since Aegon's Invasion.

[Summah]

Yes. Cities, trade, hierarchy, feudal system, order, organized religion. How's that uncivilized?Society and stuff have changed little about the individual kingdoms since Aegon's Invasion.

ok on cities, trade, order, organized religion, but I don't think a feudal system is very civilized; terrible for the small folk. Of course Valyria had slaves and I think that's very uncivilized. But really compared to Essos, Westeros would have had only 4 cities, of those only Oldtown seems cosmopolitan, honestly I don't see the appeal of Westeros for the Valyrians pre-doom.

But on the topic of the thread I assumed Braavos was hidden by magical means, since magic would have still been strong back then.

ETA change weird formatting board put in for some reason.

[GCabot]

If you're going directly to Loath on dragon back from pretty much anywhere in Essos, there's no reason you'd pass over Bravos.

True - I was assuming that at some point a dragon would fly nearby, not necessarily on the way to Lorath. After all, you can easily survey a much larger area from the air.

I would assume the Braavosi economy didn't develop until after the Doom. I don't see how it could have; if most of Essos was controlled by Valariya, and Bravos was hiding from Valayria, who would they trade with? I think Bravos stayed relatively small and self dependent until Valaryia fell.

While I'm sure their economy wasn't nearly as prosperous as it became later on, I have a difficult time believing they were self-dependent. Given its geography, I don't see a way for Braavos to be self-sufficient. They really have no natural resources to speak of. Judging by the description of Braavos later on, it seems reasonable to conclude that pretty much everything came in from the elsewhere by sea. I assume that's why it was said to be "mostly unknown," that rumors had to have circulated somewhat among those the Braavosi traded with.

Isn't there a road at the bottom of Lorath Bay that goes to the Upper Rhyone?

Not on any map I've seen.

[GCabot]

But on the topic of the thread I assumed Braavos was hidden by magical means, since magic would have still been strong back then.

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I believe this is the most plausible explanation.

[IRON BANK]

Yeah, but there's no sense of scale to the city. Is it just a little swamp community? Is it a real city, like what we see?

I agree: The scale of the city and size prior to the doom is not discussed, It is referenced as just to have remained secret. More than likley after the doom and the dragons died the scale and size of the city expanded drasticly.

[The Dragon has three heads]

It's really the only plausible explanation.

Fantasy world. Magic.

Otherwise well...you know...

[Yakman]

and the term "Hidden"

Braavos is foggy, surrounded by forests on low islands, swampy, sand banks everywhere - you have to know where you are going and how to pilot the ship precisely.

They might have been there for years actively engaged with the rest of the world - and people might have known all about the community there - but if you can't sail there yourself, you might as well say they are "hidden."

[WhiteWalder]

Must be a fantasy thing. Greywater Watch still remains hidden.

fidelius charm?

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Qarth was part of the freehold? Besides, the FM likely killed any witnesses.

I don't think so.

They have their own language. There're dragon skulls in the Red Waste. And the Undying were much stronger in these times.

[tormund's beard]

maybe what was hidden was something like the smaller water version of flea bottom.

[MadFox]

Well the North might have been able to support the secret city, with at least some trade from White Harbor. There is some connection at least to the faceless men, and the North. Maybe even the Starks, we just don't know at this time.

[The Dovakhiin]

Maybe they knew but just didn't care. I mean no natural resources, no business, hostile populace. not a great place to conquer.

[Jaak]

Compare with Rhoyne. Exactly when did Rhoyne become deserted?

We hear the assertions that there is no law above Sorrows - has not been for a thousand years.

But this means since Valyrian conquest!

Yes, there are some Valyrian roads - cannot make sense of their map. But otherwise, it looks like the Valyrians left Sorrows and Ny Sar to decay. What they did NOT do, unlike Romans, was take over the Rhoynar cities and fill the countryside with mansions and villages paying rents and taxes.

If the Valyrians were happy to leave lands deserted, it makes some more sense that these deserts included Andalos north of Pentos and west of Norvos. And if they did not fill the surroundings of Braavos with small towns and mansions, it makes sense that they might have missed the villages of rebels in swamps.

[Werthead]

We know that Braavos was founded by refugees fleeing the Valyrians as a safe haven. Supposedly, its existence remained a secret until after the Doom, whereafter they publicly revealed themselves.

My question is, how was it possible for Braavos to remain hidden all that time?

This has been discussed before. The main conclusion was that the Valyrians didn't give a toss. Some slaves escaped, but not many at a time and they didn't do a Spartacus and start attacking the Valyrians or anything, so the Valyrians ignored them. If they had launched any concerted effort to find them, then I don't think Braavos could have evaded detection (especially since the Valyrians were no slouches with magic themselves).

The main problem I can see is the location of Lorath - on an island east of Braavos. We know that Lorath, like the other Free Cities, was once part of the Valyrian Freehold. There are only two ways to get to Lorath. One would be to hop over to the mainland, across the Hills of Norvos, and down one of the Rhoyne's tributaries. There are no Valyrian roads in this area, making it an extremely impractical route.

Actually, there is a Valyrian road which leads from the west coast, just north of the Flatlands and Pentos, to the tip of the Bay of Lorath. It's generally assumed there is a port town or a small city at the end of the road, and transports go from there to Lorath. This negates the need to sail near Braavos. There is some logic in having this road, as we know from ADWD that the Shivering Sea and northern Narrow Sea become unusable in winter due to fierce storms. Having this road means that traders can hug the coast and then transport goods overland to the (presumably sheltered) Bay of Lorath, then by sea from there to Lorath itself. It's a safer route, especially if you also factor in possible pirates and raiders based on the Sisters.

Qarth was part of the freehold?

Based on the DVD history special features - which I presume were created with GRRM's input - Qarth was never part of the Valyrian Freehold.