Did Sansa Lose Lady Because of Lying to Arya

[The Frosted King]

Jory found her. After they sent Nymeria off.

[Lord Damian]

Everytime Sansa betrays a family memeber, she has lost someone close, she betrayed her sis, she lost her wolf, she then betrays her father in front of the court and is duped to do it to him through Varys, she loses him too. Sansa is being punished and going through her own hell. Arya is also in a way for being rebellious and aggressive. She is seperated from her wolf but will most likely see her again, we hope. Sansa though is done with the North and they with her.

[Mladen]

But Lannister men found her, IIRC.

This is maybe a weak parallel between the Rhaegar and Lyanna situation, if anything. In a very abstract way, maybe. But calling Robert, Aerys, in this situation is entirely unfounded. Even calling him close to Aerys implies something that is just not there. Just like calling Ned, Brandon, or Mycha, Rhaegar seems pretty suspect.

No, Jory found her but Lannister men brought her before the King.

I was just comapring situations which could have been dealt better...

[King Tyrion I]

Well, we discussed about this on another thread, and mormont and Lyanna Stark made great analysis of the events that happened. Actually, this is all on parents, and not kids. As mormont said 'Robert elevated child feud to state level'. Problem Sansa had was obvious: being between her fiance and her sister. her future and current family. Furthermore, she was 11 year-old child brought in front of entire Robert's court. What could she do? Call the future King, and her husband a liar? Sansa didn't lie, she just pleaded the 5th. Did it help any side? No, because she didn't say neither Arya nor Joffrey was lying. Sansa found diplomatic solution to the problem without getting anyone in further trouble. You all forget that Sansa actually didn't say anything but 'I don't remember', and that's not siding with anyone. She knew the truth, but situation she was in didn't allow her to speak freely.

As for instant karma, with all due respect, it's nonsense. I mean, it's not like she killed someone (and if anyone claims Mycah died because of Sansa, then I will laugh at them and their ignorance), and Lady paid it with her life. Sansa did the only thing she could in that even for adults difficult situation.

And lastly, concerning Lady's death, many believe that this was another example of death paying for life. Theory is that GRRM killed Lady so Bran could live.

And I am not going to rip you, just prove you're wrong... And you are :)

:agree: Seconded.

[WatcherOnTheWall]

Sansa didn't choose a side and that was her folly.

"The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis." - Dante Alighieri

[WatcherOnTheWall]

Sansa didn't choose a side and that was her folly.

"The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis." - Dante Alighieri

[WatcherOnTheWall]

Sorry for the double post, internet is acting up.

[Sansa_Stark]

Sansa didn't choose a side and that was her folly.

"The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis." - Dante Alighieri

Tywin is f***ed.

[TheMysteriousOne]

Lady died out of Cersei's cruelty and lack of empathy, not because of Sansa or Arya.

[Katsa]

Lady was killed because Cersei was a cruel bitch and Robert didn't give a rat's ass about anything apart from whoring and drinking. When reading AGoT, I expected Cersei to execute Nymeria but was stunned when Lady's death was ordered instead as a replacement. (How is that even logical?!)

By the way, I've always adored Arya as a character and prefer her over Sansa. She was the first character from the series that I was able to relate to. I am going to be completely honest here; I generally like Sansa but every time I read this scene, I find myself angry at her all over again. (I suppose I'm like Arya in that sense lol.) However, I find blaming Lady's death on her (Sansa) ridiculous. Or Mycah's. Yes, Sansa lied about having a memory relapse. Part of me wished that Sansa had told the truth and supported Arya's account of events, but in the end I am aware that she remained neutral so as to not further inflame the situation. As to the severity of the situation which was discussed in the earlier pages of this thread, I do think that Arya could have been severely punished (a hand or two removed etc.) if Robert had been more nonchalant and caved in to Cersei's demands, but I don't think Sansa expected her sister's life to be in danger.

At the end of the day, both girls were naive children. I disagree that Lady's death was brought about by bad karma. If Robert had cared just a tad bit more about justice, Lady would have still been alive regardless of what Sansa had said.

[juanml82]

Lady died out of Cersei's cruelty and lack of empathy, not because of Sansa or Arya.

:agree:This. Sansa lied, that much is clear. But Robert had closed the 'trial' and then Cersei, being the stupid bitch she is, demanded Lady's death. And Robert, being a southron who knows nothing, probably believed he was doing Sansa a favour by killing Lady (besides giving in the Cersei so she doesn't bother him any longer)

[Free Northman]

Life's all about choices. And many of the choices won't be easy. That doesn't give you an excuse to make the wrong choice. Of course, you are free to make whichever choice you want to. But then you have to live with the consequences. As Sansa has been forced to. And the cumulative consequences of her making the wrong choice on a NUMBER of occasions, have been dire indeed.

The problem is that she is simply a very slow learner. She is only now starting to connect dots that Arya had already connected when the Lannisters first arrived at Winterfell in Robert's wheelhouse. Sure, she may now start making better choices. But the consequences of her slow process of awakening are done and dusted. Nothing can change the past. You just have to live with it.

[Victarion Chainbreaker]

While the rest of the Stark kids were learning honor from Ned, Sansa was busy bullying Arya for not fitting her society's role for women and ostracizing Jon for the accident of his birth. On the King's Road, she saw her own sister being bullied and did nothing to stop it, and when questioned later, she lied to protect the bully (bullies stick together much more than family, at least in Sansa's case.) In King's Landing, Sansa was the only one whom Arya could have been close with, but Sansa decided to ostracize her like she had Jon. And when Sansa learned her father's secret plans, her reaction was to betray her own father to their family's archenemy. This disloyalty led to her father's death and her sister's banishment to wander the war-torn river lands, braving starvation, torture, and death.

So yes, Sansa did lose Lady because of her lies on the King's Road, but that's only part of it. The direwolves were the Stark children's birthright; and the lying, dishonorable, betraying bully that is Sansa had no right to call herself a Stark.

No wonder she slips into the Alayne Stone persona so well: the bastard name suits her much better.

[Free Northman]

While the rest of the Stark kids were learning honor from Ned, Sansa was busy bullying Arya for not fitting her society's role for women and ostracizing Jon for the accident of his birth. On the King's Road, she saw her own sister being bullied and did nothing to stop it, and when questioned later, she lied to protect the bully (bullies stick together much more than family, at least in Sansa's case.) In King's Landing, Sansa was the only one whom Arya could have been close with, but Sansa decided to ostracize her like she had Jon. And when Sansa learned her father's secret plans, her reaction was to betray her own father to their family's archenemy. This disloyalty led to her father's death and her sister's banishment to wander the war-torn river lands, braving starvation, torture, and death.

So yes, Sansa did lose Lady because of her lies on the King's Road, but that's only part of it. The direwolves were the Stark children's birthright; and the lying, dishonorable, betraying bully that is Sansa had no right to call herself a Stark.

No wonder she slips into the Alayne Stone persona so well: the bastard name suits her much better.

Now, while this post to me is entirely accurate and based in fact, I don't think it's going to go down well on this forum. Which is why I don't really bother with pointing out the obvious truth on this matter anymore.

Good luck with what will soon follow.

[TheMysteriousOne]

This thread reeks of Sansa hate

[greensleeves]

Life's all about choices. And many of the choices won't be easy. That doesn't give you an excuse to make the wrong choice. Of course, you are free to make whichever choice you want to. But then you have to live with the consequences. As Sansa has been forced to. And the cumulative consequences of her making the wrong choice on a NUMBER of occasions, have been dire indeed.

The problem is that she is simply a very slow learner. She is only now starting to connect dots that Arya had already connected when the Lannisters first arrived at Winterfell in Robert's wheelhouse. Sure, she may now start making better choices. But the consequences of her slow process of awakening are done and dusted. Nothing can change the past. You just have to live with it.

As has been pointed out, Sansa had good reason to withhold testimony. She's not 'a slow learner'. If you insist on pitting Sansa v. Arya it could be pointed out that Arya's actions during the entire incident were pretty unwise and that her 'connected dots' had less to do with great perceptive abilities and more to do with a happy accident of prejudices.

Now, while this post to me is entirely accurate and based in fact, I don't think it's going to go down well on this forum. Which is why I don't really bother with pointing out the obvious truth on this matter anymore.

Good luck with what will soon follow.

I'm pretty sure that guy's just trolling.

[Katsa]

While the rest of the Stark kids were learning honor from Ned, Sansa was busy bullying Arya for not fitting her society's role for women and ostracizing Jon for the accident of his birth.

I am an Arya fan and I don't recall Sansa being mean towards Arya, prior to the Trident incident at least. I even recall a scene where Sansa tried covering up for Arya to Septa Mordane. Perhaps you are confusing Sansa and Jeyne Poole? Jeyne no doubt said a lot of nasty things to Arya. She even detailed Mycah's gruesome death and blamed everything on Arya.

On the King's Road, she saw her own sister being bullied and did nothing to stop it, and when questioned later, she lied to protect the bully (bullies stick together much more than family, at least in Sansa's case.) In King's Landing, Sansa was the only one whom Arya could have been close with, but Sansa decided to ostracize her like she had Jon.

Sansa did try to get off her horse, actually, but she was too late. Just to clarify, Sansa did not lie to protect Joffrey. If her intention was to protect Joffrey, she would have supported his version of the story and left Arya for the crows. Sansa's purported memory relapse was aimed at not inflaming an already intense situation.

And when Sansa learned her father's secret plans, her reaction was to betray her own father to their family's archenemy. This disloyalty led to her father's death and her sister's banishment to wander the war-torn river lands, braving starvation, torture, and death.

Ned screwed himself by not being discrete with his investigation and disclosing his findings to Cersei. Sansa's "betrayal" screwed her (and Arya's) chances of escaping King's Landing but it did not cause Ned's death.

So yes, Sansa did lose Lady because of her lies on the King's Road, but that's only part of it. The direwolves were the Stark children's birthright; and the lying, dishonorable, betraying bully that is Sansa had no right to call herself a Stark.

No wonder she slips into the Alayne Stone persona so well: the bastard name suits her much better.

I sincerely hope that you were just trolling.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

No. Sansa lost Lady because of Cersei and Joffrey. The problem is not the lie she told (that she didn't remember) in that particulat scene; she was scared and didn't know what to do. The problem is that she later chose not only to believe in that lie, but to put the blame for Lady's death in Arya and persuade herself that Myckah attacked Joffrey. She paid hugely disproportionally, for lying to herself.

[Night'sQueen]

Sansa lied and Lady was the cost of that lie. If she would have told the truth and everything that went along with it. Her story and Arrya's would have matched up leaving Joffrey with nothing to say. However Sansas non commital to tell the truth which is paramount to the same thing as lying gave Cersie the go ahead to do whatever she had her mind set on.which is what she wanted in the first place and that was to rid the girls of their wolves because she was constantly scheming,something. This is why later on within the story we are made aware that Cersie tries to seduce Jaime into killing Arrya on the same night; Cersie is a paranoid sociopath.

This.

When you crack the Crown Prince's head open and then set a direwolf to maul his arm, its a state level crime. Robert was completely right to have a trial. This could have ended up a lot worse. Arya was accused of very serious crimes.

If Arya had the guts to call the future king a liar, then why didn't Sansa? She had to tell the truth. Sansa lied. I am tired of this she pleaded the fifth. She said she could not remember, but we know she could. So she lied and left her sister to face the consequences. Arya spoke freely, but Sansa chose Joffrey over Arya.

Yes I do think that Sansa betraying her family, led to her losing her wolf.

And this.

Why resort to karma when we have hubris and nemesis??? In any event it's been said several times that we westerners misunderstand and over-simplify the concept of karma...

As for lying, well, Sansa did lie... Not about what happened but in respect of her own state of mind (saying that she couldn't remember when she could...), she had the chance to come clean, but didn't. In the circumstances that may have been very understandable but that doesn't mean it was right. Sansa found a political solution satisfying no-one and thus precipitated a crisis for which she had to pay a very personal price.

And this. Very beautifully put, btw.

Sansa lied and it was a mistake that cost her dearly. She was a scared child in a very difficult situation and made a poor decision.

ETA: Poor Lady. :bawl:

[The Prince of Ice]

This.

And this.

And this. Very beautifully put, btw.

Sansa lied and it was a mistake that cost her dearly. She was a scared child in a very difficult situation and made a poor decision.

ETA: Poor Lady. :bawl:

Im back guys and agreed Queen of Death of Duty

This is just to clear things up for the Sansa fans, i don think that Sansa lying was the only and direct cause of Ladys demise, it definitely aided to it though, there were many other plot reasons for Lady to die and i think lying to is one of them. Check my OP and it says so.

Sorry for confusion with the because i knew i should have worded the title better.