Lyanna and Rhaegar.

[The Angels' Prophet]

I didn't want to go down the =J thing. There is more to the relationship than just that.

I think the thread is about R+L before Jon

Yeah, I agree, But I have seen mods close topics like this before for not being posted in R+L=J.

[Lost Melnibonean]

There was about a year betwee HH and the supposed abduction.

Well there goes my hunch. Is the year that you say passed documented?

[Ygrain]

Well there goes my hunch. Is the year that you say passed documented?

If you mean events, there is Aegon's birth. If you mean the length of the time period, it's somewhere in the SSMs, I think.

[Lost Melnibonean]

If you mean events, there is Aegon's birth. If you mean the length of the time period, it's somewhere in the SSMs, I think.

Do you think you know where the SSM is? :)

[corbon]

The frustrating thing is that we should know if she was taken. Surely a highborn Lady travelling through Westeros would have had an escort. Where did they end up if there was one? Dead? That legitimises some of Bob's theory. Alive? Then why have they never spoken up?

Lyanna was a famous horsewoman and full of 'wolf blood'. I don't think its difficult to see her ridng out alone often, or even regularly 'accidentally' losing her guards because hy couldn't keep up. Think Arya wandering off through the bogs on the way south to KL, exploring, finding new flowers etc. Think Joffrey and Sansa riding alone and coming upon Arya and Micah.

I agree with you. It doesn't make much sense to me either. Also Rhaegar is almost universally thought of as being honourable, yet I cannot recall hardly any characters questioning the wisdom of him setting aside his Dornish wife and his two children for a mere slip of a girl?

No one is being set aside. There is not the sightest hint of that anywhere, and that would create a huge stink.

Targaryens do polygamy remember.

There seems to be some version of romantic abduction, at least on the Targ side, as Dany mentions Rhaegar taking Lyanna at swordpoint and later daydreaming about Daario coming to abduct her like that prior her marriage to Hizdahr. If anything can be concluded from this, then Dany seems to be under the impression that the sword was used against guards and Lyanna, while not complicit in the scheme, was definitely not unwilling, rather the contrary.

I can't see a reasonable data trail leading from the 'abduction' to Dany though.

I don't think this is anything more than a 'spin' on the official 'abduction' story from King Bob for exiled young Targaryen ears.

Then there's the fact that when he's talking about it with Ned, Robert says that in the end, despite killing him, Rhaegar won anyway, because now Rhaegar is with Lyanna while he's stuck with Cersei. To me that means some part of Robert must have known it was consensual... or else he has a really sick idea of what the afterlife is, if he imagines that a woman has to spend eternity with her rapist.

Very solid point.

[Ygrain]

Do you think you know where the SSM is? :)

Unfortunately not but the timelines are often discussed and I know the information is verified.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Unfortunately not but the timelines are often discussed and I know the information is verified.

You know, the Wiki (yes I know it's not canon) says HH, the abduction, and the execution of Rickard & Brandon all occurred in 281...

[Ygrain]

You know, the Wiki (yes I know it's not canon) says HH, the abduction, and the execution of Rickard & Brandon all occurred in 281...

Only, it states elsewhere Rickard's death as 282, as well as the birth of Aegon for which Rhaegar was present at KL. HH was 281 and Jaime was fifteen, at the time of the Sack 283 he was seventeen. The rebellion lasted for about a year, if this helps at least a bit.

[the_one_who_was_promised]

No one is being set aside. There is not the sightest hint of that anywhere, and that would create a huge stink.

Targaryens do polygamy remember.

Yes, they do practice polygamy, but if you say that there is no hint at all that Rhaegar did not intend to set Elia aside, then equally I don't know how we can conclusively assume that it was his intention to keep both women on tap either.

He might of course fully intend to practice polygamy with both women, but would he really do this if he was in love with Lyanna?

As another poster has said on here, we know roughly 10% of what happened during the rebellion - the details are so vague and sketchy that I don't know how any of us can make a conclusive assumption as to what exactly happened, how and why. My point is that it does not make sense to me personally how a man like Ned Stark can provoke such a reaction as to the fact that he has an illegitimate child, while Rhaegar's escapades with a young girl (whom we cannot ascertain was his second wife at this point in time in any case) barely get a mention - remember it is this action that contributed to the sack of King's Landing resulting in numerous deaths.

That is not to say that I do not think that Lyanna went willingly - I think she did - but I also think that there might be more to this story than what we have been told.

[corbon]

Yes, they do practice polygamy, but if you say that there is no hint at all that Rhaegar did not intend to set Elia aside, then equally I don't know how we can conclusively assume that it was his intention to keep both women on tap either.

He might of course fully intend to practice polygamy with both women, but would he really do this if he was in love with Lyanna?

In name, why not. His marraige to Elia was a political one forced on him by his father, and while there was affection there, there was no love. Elia cannot have any more children so there is no reason to sleep with her any more. Setting Elia aside creates political issues and possible succession issues that are simply unnecessary, and he also wants three heads of the dragon, so why set aside the two heads he already has? It just makes no sense at all to set her aside when he has this handy precedent that makes everything work out for everybody.

As another poster has said on here, we know roughly 10% of what happened during the rebellion - the details are so vague and sketchy that I don't know how any of us can make a conclusive assumption as to what exactly happened, how and why. My point is that it does not make sense to me personally how a man like Ned Stark can provoke such a reaction as to the fact that he has an illegitimate child,

What reaction? There's basically none.

while Rhaegar's escapades with a young girl (whom we cannot ascertain was his second wife at this point in time in any case) barely get a mention - remember it is this action that contributed to the sack of King's Landing resulting in numerous deaths.

Err, no it did not. The war started because Brandon Stark did something insane. No one even mentioned Lyanna Stark. Rickard Stark came south to defend his son, still no one mentioned Lyanna. Aerys judicially murdered Brandon and Rickard in a particualrly cruel way, then demanded the heads of Robert Baratheon and Ned Stark, for no reason. Jon Arryn said bugger this for a game of marbles and raised his banners in rebellion. Ned and Robert joined him, as the alternative is to deliver their heads to Aerys.

That is not to say that I do not think that Lyanna went willingly - I think she did - but I also think that there might be more to this story than what we have been told.

There undoubtedly is. Probably a marriage for one thing, judging by the actions and words of the three KG at the ToJ. Probably some disinformation judging by Brandon 's response, and possibly some real information judging by Rickards lack of response.

[Ned's Epic Beard]

Err, no it did not. The war started because Brandon Stark did something insane. No one even mentioned Lyanna Stark. Rickard Stark came south to defend his son, still no one mentioned Lyanna. Aerys judicially murdered Brandon and Rickard in a particualrly cruel way, then demanded the heads of Robert Baratheon and Ned Stark, for no reason. Jon Arryn said bugger this for a game of marbles and raised his banners in rebellion. Ned and Robert joined him, as the alternative is to deliver their heads to Aerys.

Brandons reaction was a normal reaction of a brother who thought that his sister was kidnaped and being raped. It was triggered by the insane and irrational action of a married man kidnapping a 13 year old child without her family's consent . It is an official story people of westeros and starks believe in.

There undoubtedly is. Probably a marriage for one thing, judging by the actions and words of the three KG at the ToJ. Probably some disinformation judging by Brandon 's response, and possibly some real information judging by Rickards lack of response.

There is no proof that Rickard knew about it. We hardly see anything from Rickards point of view. Plus why would he settle for a man who is already married for his daughter? He already made a pact with house baratheon who was a better match for his daughter and benefited him politically. It would have been a retarded decision to throw away barathoen friendship for nothing(without even telling them).

[corbon]

Brandons reaction was a normal reaction of a brother who thought that his sister was kidnaped and being raped.

Een if that were true, it was still insanely stupid.

It was triggered by the insane and irrational action of a married man kidnapping a 13 year old child without her family's consent .

We don't know that. We don't know what he knew, or thought he knew.

It is an official story people of westeros and starks believe in.

Its King Bob's belief. We don't have a lot of idea what anyone else believes.

There is no proof that Rickard knew about it. We hardly see anything from Rickards point of view. Plus why would he settle for a man who is already married for his daughter? He already made a pact with house baratheon who was a better match for his daughter and benefited him politically. It would have been a retarded decision to throw away barathoen friendship for nothing(without even telling them).

Did I say proof? Or that he agreed?

Just that its possible he was informed, and had different information than Brandon.

[Ygrain]

Brandons reaction was a normal reaction of a brother who thought that his sister was kidnaped and being raped. It was triggered by the insane and irrational action of a married man kidnapping a 13 year old child without her family's consent . It is an official story people of westeros and starks believe in.

Lyanna was NOT 13 at that time, get your facts right.

And on behalf of all sisters, do inform all brothers that we wish to be saved in the first place, not avenged. Really, seeing you pull the same piece again and again and again whenever the topic pops up and not reflect the slightest bit on anything that has been said previously is getting tedious.

There is no proof that Rickard knew about it. We hardly see anything from Rickards point of view. Plus why would he settle for a man who is already married for his daughter? He already made a pact with house baratheon who was a better match for his daughter and benefited him politically. It would have been a retarded decision to throw away barathoen friendship for nothing(without even telling them).

Nothing better than argue a strawman of your own making. RIckard kinda didn't have a choice to approve or disapprove; what is proposed here is that he might have been informed that Lyanna went willingly and was not in danger.

[Ned's Epic Beard]

Its King Bob's belief. We don't have a lot of idea what anyone else believes.

It's not just bobs belief. Brandon believed it to. Also the starks believe in it. For example Bran in GOT tells osha story about how Rheagar kidnaped an raped lyanna. And he tells this story in front of measter luwin. Also Barristan Selmy in sword tells danny how Rheagar crowned lyanna in front of his wife and later "stole" her.

[Ygrain]

It's not just bobs belief. Brandon believed it to. Also the starks believe in it. For example Bran in GOT tells osha story about how Rheagar kidnaped an raped lyanna. And he tells this story in front of measter luwin. Also Barristan Selmy in sword tells danny how Rheagar crowned lyanna in front of his wife and later "stole" her.

We don't know what Brandon believed.

And quoting Barristan as a source of belief that Rhaegar did something dishonourable is not exactly convincing, given the high esteem he has for Rhaegar.

[Ned's Epic Beard]

Lyanna was NOT 13 at that time, get your facts righ

And on behalf of all sisters, do inform all brothers that we wish to be saved in the first place, not avenged. Really, seeing you pull the same piece again and again and again whenever the topic pops up and not reflect the slightest bit on anything that has been said previously is getting tedious.

If you find it tedious then please don't reply to me.

Nothing better than argue a strawman of your own making. RIckard kinda didn't have a choice to approve or disapprove; what is proposed here is that he might have been informed that Lyanna went willingly and was not in danger.

It is a strawman from your end. Don't you think Rickard would have told his son and his family that lyanna went willingly. Why there is no mention of it then? And the offical stark story is that Rheagar kidnapped Lyanna (thanks to bran's stroy)

[Ygrain]

If you find it tedious then please don't reply to me.

Stop spreading incorrect information. Lyanna was not 13 when she was supposedly abducted, that shouldn't be so difficult to remember.

It is a strawman from your end. Don't you think Rickard would have told his son and his family that lyanna went willingly. Why there is no mention of it then? And the offical stark story is that Rheagar kidnapped Lyanna (thanks to bran's stroy)

The official story fourteen years later cannot be used to establish what Rickard knew or believed, and what he wold have told Brandon depended if communication was possible in the first place, allowed by time span and/or distance. Strawmen, really.

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

I've been thinking about who believed what as well.

As far as we know:

*Someone* told Brandon that Lyanna had been taken by Prince Rhaegar.

News probably travels from Riverun (Rikkard and Hoster) to the Vale (Arryn, Robert, Ned).

So at this point, the Starks don't know much about where Lyanna may or maynot be.

Robert begins seething.

Brandon challenges Rhaegar at KL.

Still no one knows anything about Lyanna. By the time the war is in full swing, not another person laid eyes on them.

Then it was over. After all is said and done, no one can admit that they don't actually know what happened.

Yet, When Aerys becomes concerned about the rebellion he sends out Gerold Hightower to bring Rhaegar back to KL.

Gerold was present when King Aerys II burned Lord Rickard Stark alive in the throne room; he reminded Jaime that they were sworn to defend the king, not to judge him.^[4] During the ensuing rebellion, Ser Gerold was sent to find Prince Rhaegar when the war started to become out of hand. When he found the crown prince, Gerold stayed with two of his Kingsguard brothers, Arthur Dayne and Ser Oswell Whent, at the Tower of Joy in the Red Mountains of Dorne, on the orders of the prince.

That means Gerold had enough time, between the BotB and the Trident, to find Rhaegar and Rhaegar to return back to KL. Was Aerys in contact with Rhaegar the whole time or did Gerold just search a few places for him.

[Nami]

Lyanna was 13 like 3 years before she disappeared with Rhaegar. Everything happened in 2/3 years, and people get older you know?

Like Ygrain said, stop spreading false information. It's really annoying (for those who know the facts) and just seems like senseless hate post

Here in caps in case some people are failing to see what has been posted 3094853908539045 times

LYANNA DIED WHEN SHE WAS 16

1 YEAR BETWEEN HARRENHAL AND HER DISAPPEARANCE

SHE WAS MOST LIKELY 14 IN THE TOURNEY

[Lissa Nymeros Martell]

That means Gerold had enough time, between the BotB and the Trident, to find Rhaegar and Rhaegar to return back to KL. Was Aerys in contact with Rhaegar the whole time or did Gerold just search a few places for him.

"Aerys Targaryen's last Hand was killed in the Sack of King's Landing, although he had been appointed only a fortnight earlier. The Hand before him had burned to death. The two before them had died landless and penniless in exile. Lord Tywin Lannister was the last Hand of the King to depart King's Landing safely (II: 41)"

So it took Gerold Hightower around two weeks to find Rhaegar and send him to King's Landing. Considering how quickly they returned it seems to indicate that they knew where Rhaegar was hiding. Maybe some communication between the two?