Nictarion Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 She was 13 at Harrenhal and the OP thinks Rhaegar was attracted to her. That's just twisted, I still have issues with SanSan and Tyrion/SansaDany/Drogo too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Dany/Drogo too.Or Marillion/Sansa. Or something closer home, Romeo and Juliet. Juliet was fourteen and to marry Paris, whose age is not stated but as he was an established businessman, definitely an adult. And Juliet mother, who tells her that at the age of fourteen, she was already married and had Juliet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteOwl18 Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Or Marillion/Sansa. Or something closer home, Romeo and Juliet. Juliet was fourteen and to marry Paris, whose age is not stated but as he was an established businessman, definitely an adult. And Juliet mother, who tells her that at the age of fourteen, she was already married and had Juliet.Precisely. I think I've said this before: what is considered creepy and downright criminal in the 21st century, was perfectly normal in medieval times. As soon as a girl had her first period, she was considered a woman. "Teenager" is a fairly modern concept: back then you were either a child or an adult, there was nothing in between. Young ladies matured much faster than they do today and they were ready to bed a much older man if they had to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lady Lannister Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 I wouldn't go as far as to say it was a love on the same level as Ned and Cat's, because it wasn't. But Ned and Cat did not love each other, they married out of duty. They were both in love with somebody else. What they had at the end of their lives was more of a mature and adult kind of love and appreciation, not the teenage madness and lust which is such a popular concept in our time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natasi Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 But Ned and Cat did not love each other, they married out of duty. They were both in love with somebody else. What they had at the end of their lives was more of a mature and adult kind of love and appreciation, not the teenage madness and lust which is such a popular concept in our time.Agreed, you beat me to it. Their love in the books being much later than when they first wed was more from the many children they had together and the tight knit family they created--not breathless, romantic love like what *could* have existed between Rhaegar and Lyanna.As far as the dissonance surrounding Lyanna's lament about Robert's wandering ways and Rhaegar already being married: I feel it would be easier to imagine that Rhaegar confided that he wasn't *in* love with Elia though he respected her and was fond of her. Elia also knew about the prophecy and knew she likely couldn't survive another pregnancy.Would Lyanna allow her romantic love for the most dashing man in Westeros and the potential for satisfying a prophecy overcome whatever aversion she might have of infidelity? I think so.Had she married Robert, no matter how much he says he loved her, I have no doubt that even she couldn't keep him to one bed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 OP, Rhaegar abducted her with the assistance of Arthur and Oswell of the KG. Lyanna may have been willing but I doubt she sought him out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pikachu101 Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 But Ned and Cat did not love each other, they married out of duty. They were both in love with somebody else. What they had at the end of their lives was more of a mature and adult kind of love and appreciation, not the teenage madness and lust which is such a popular concept in our time.They weren't in love with anyone, and their marriage is real love. What Lyanna and Rhaegar may have had isn't love, it's as you said teenage madness and lust I really don't think people should go as far as to call their relationship true love or something like that. Love comes from respect, what Lyanna had for Rhaegar was just teenage lust Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 They weren't in love with anyone, and their marriage is real love. What Lyanna and Rhaegar may have had isn't love, it's as you said teenage madness and lustI really don't think people should go as far as to call their relationship true love or something like that. Love comes from respect, what Lyanna had for Rhaegar was just teenage lustYou think Rhaegar didn't respect Lyanna for her KotLT feats, or Lyanna Rhaegar for not disclosing her secret to his father (who had called for the KotLT's head)?You're very quick to judge here, Pikachu, and you're doing so on very shaky ground. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong - but I am saying we just don't know enough yet to fully judge the entire situation. Many factors that would come into that equation are still unknown to us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteOwl18 Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 You think Rhaegar didn't respect Lyanna for her KotLT feats, or Lyanna Rhaegar for not disclosing her secret to his father (who had called for the KotLT's head)?You're very quick to judge here, Pikachu, and you're doing so on very shaky ground. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong - but I am saying we just don't know enough yet to fully judge the entire situation. Many factors that would come into that equation are still unknown to us.Agreed. One of the things I find interesting about R+L is that it's a perfect example not only of forbidden love, but also of young love. When you are young, all your emotions are on their highest level and everything is insanely intense. That's certainly what happens with love: when you're young and in love it seems like it's going to last forever and that the person you love is the love of your life. And guess what? Those feelings are perfectly legitimate and absolutely real. As you grow up, one of two things happens: the feelings go away (not all at once, but slowly) or they change into something more mature (again, not at once). Which one of these scenarios applies to R+L? I don't know. None of us can know, because their relationship ended before we could see it. And they never got to know either. They both died before their relationship could withstand the test of time. That is precisely the tragedy: for them it ended at the beginning; they never got to live through the middle and the end (whatever it may have been). And yes, they are partially responsible for that (but I refuse the notion that they are the only ones to blame!). That is also what happened with Romeo and Juliet, and there is a great analysis of it in .We can't be quick to judge because there are a lot of things we don't know about R+L's past and, just as important, their future. And that's part of their appeal, at least for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Args, I hate when I mistype. Thank you Red.Queen!I also agree about Rhaegar and Lyanna. Yes, it was love, but love that never could go its course because they died so early. And yes, they set into motion what would lead to their deaths - but in the absence of crystal balls, they could hardly have seen this result of their actions, and they were hardly the most irresponsible parties involved (here's looking at you two, Brandon and Aerys).Really, to people claiming R+L=J would be cliché, would you call Shakespeare cliché too? If yes, why? If no, why not? What's the difference between Shakespeare and Martin in telling a tragic love story? An I'm not even comparing GRRM to Shakespeare in any terms of skill as a writer or anythng like that, all I'm asking is what the difference is between Shakespeare writing RaJ and GRRM writing R+L. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteWalder Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 OP, Rhaegar abducted her with the assistance of Arthur and Oswell of the KG. Lyanna may have been willing but I doubt she sought him out.Maybe...we still don't know if she was taken willingly. Hopefully BranRaven will be able to shed some light. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Robert's Warhammer Posted July 17, 2013 Author Share Posted July 17, 2013 The frustrating thing is that we should know if she was taken. Surely a highborn Lady travelling through Westeros would have had an escort. Where did they end up if there was one? Dead? That legitimises some of Bob's theory. Alive? Then why have they never spoken up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned's Epic Beard Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Grown up married man with children having an affair with 13 year old girl and abducting her without her family's consent. Now that's what I call romantic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadside Rose Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Rhaegar was fire, Robert was mud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Grown up married man with children having an affair 1 with 13 year old girl and abducting 2 her without her family's consent 3. Now that's what I call romantic!1. We don't know about an affair. It might as well have been a marriage, or an arrangement with Elia's blessing.2. We don't know if it was an abduction, or what his exact motives were. Lady G had a nice theory as for Rhaegar's reasons that might have been very much about protecting Lyanna from harm.3. We don't know if her family gave consent or not either. It might just as well have been Aerys they were hiding from.ETA: Robert was fire too. Ned is a mud man, but Robert definitely is a fire man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteOwl18 Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Args, I hate when I mistype. Thank you Red.Queen!I also agree about Rhaegar and Lyanna. Yes, it was love, but love that never could go its course because they died so early. And yes, they set into motion what would lead to their deaths - but in the absence of crystal balls, they could hardly have seen this result of their actions, and they were hardly the most irresponsible parties involved (here's looking at you two, Brandon and Aerys).Really, to people claiming R+L=J would be cliché, would you call Shakespeare cliché too? If yes, why? If no, why not? What's the difference between Shakespeare and Martin in telling a tragic love story? An I'm not even comparing GRRM to Shakespeare in any terms of skill as a writer or anythng like that, all I'm asking is what the difference is between Shakespeare writing RaJ and GRRM writing R+L.Once again, agreed. I see it as a snowball that started out small, and could have stayed small if other people hadn't added more snow (no pun intended!). By the time R+L knew about this metaforical snowball, it was so huge and already rolling down the mountain at such a high speed that it couldn't possibly be stopped! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
honeyed chicken Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 OP, Rhaegar abducted her with the assistance of Arthur and Oswell of the KG. Lyanna may have been willing but I doubt she sought him out.And I just haven't been on Westeros long enough to see this answered:When when Robert & Ned are talking in the Barrowlands on the trip south from WF to KL and Robert starts roaring about "how many HUNDREDS of times did he rape her?",Ned keeps quiet.Is the consensus that he kept quiet to protect Jon (hence, another little piece evidence in favor of R+L=J), did he not know the truth, or did he agree with Robert (maybe a little of all 3?)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Considering how Ned compares Rhaegar to Robert, and comes to a conclusion favorable to Rhaegar, I'm pretty sure he kept quiet to protect Jon and not have to lie more than absolutely necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 The frustrating thing is that we should know if she was taken. Surely a highborn Lady travelling through Westeros would have had an escort. Where did they end up if there was one? Dead? That legitimises some of Bob's theory. Alive? Then why have they never spoken up?Benjen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Robert's Warhammer Posted July 17, 2013 Author Share Posted July 17, 2013 Benjen?What about him? Surely she would have had more of a possible escort than just her wee brother? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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