Crazy theory, could Tyrion not be a Lannister but a Targaryen?

[Aleesha]

How the hell does Tywin punish everybody who shames House Lannister by sleeping with the very whore who humiliated his son (and thus House Lannister) during her confession in the trial against said son, and why the hell did he give her the golden chain of the Hand?

There is another side to Tywin, and this whole thing might actually allude to that side...

I'm not sure how Tywin sleeping with Shae alludes to him having forgiven his wife's supposed affair and raise the child born off that union. It just shows that he was a hypocrite. And Tywin didn't punish Shae because she lied during Tyrion's trial, which gave Tywin an excuse to get rid of Tyrion, who he considered an "abomination", without being called a kinslayer.

The "whole Joanna story" simply says that Aerys was infatuated with Joanna and that he took "liberties" with her during her bedding. To go from that to Tyrion being a Targ is a pretty big leap.

[finger]

There are many hints about Tyrion being Aerys's son. You've quoted some, let me add some more.

Since the beginning, Tyrion doesn't fell his father's love: "all dwarfs are bastards to their fathers". What if it were true in his stance?

Reluctant BS to talk about Aerys and Joanna. What is he trying to conceal?

And a subtle one: the relation between Targs and fire magic. Quaithe met Dany about a show by a fire wizard, and told her that his magic had greatly improved since Dany arrived to Quarth. Otoh, the pyromaster told Tyrion that the process of making wildfire involved some kind of magic, which was more effective of late. The obvious reading is since Tyrion was about, but, honestly, it could be some other event happening at the same time. (Even though, I doubt Sansa's "flowering" had anything to do about it).

And then, Tyrion's resistance to any kind of ordeals, from sky cells to greyscale.

Only, it is at odds the three heads of the dragon: these should be Aegon, Jon and Danaerys. But this is another topic.

[finger]

How the hell does Tywin punish everybody who shames House Lannister by sleeping with the very whore who humiliated his son (and thus House Lannister) during her confession in the trial against said son, and why the hell did he give her the golden chain of the Hand?

There is another side to Tywin, and this whole thing might actually allude to that side...

Of course there is yet no proof that Tyrion is Aerys' son (just as there were only hints that we would eventually meet Aegon VI before ADwD came out). But there are hints. And we would be foolish to ignore those hints. This whole thing was merely a theory before ADwD came out, but with the whole Joanna story it became much more plausible.

It's off topic, but,...IMO, Tywin bedding Shae means that she was in his service since the beginning, and she was spying Tyrion for Tywin.

It would be related with two other actions: who ordered Joff's dead, and who sent Mandon Moore to kill Tyrion. I think Tywin is the main suspect, but this is far from clear.

Much to discuss about it. As I said, it's off topic.

[Ser Greg of House House]

It's off topic, but,...IMO, Tywin bedding Shae means that she was in his service since the beginning, and she was spying Tyrion for Tywin.

It would be related with two other actions: who ordered Joff's dead, and who sent Mandon Moore to kill Tyrion. I think Tywin is the main suspect, but this is far from clear.

Much to discuss about it. As I said, it's off topic.

I've always felt there was something more to Shae/Tywin. Is there any more evidence that Tywin was spying on Tyrion like that?

[oursisthefury69]

Aegon (if he's the real deal) and Jon

Well Aegon isn't and since your quota for secret Targs is apparently 2 then that should open up some possibilities about tyrion for you

[Northbound]

Tyrion is the son of Joanna and Mance! Mance went through the wall and made it down to Harrenhal for the tourney. They shared a look and then a dance, soon after she needed some Mance!

[Pikachu101]

Nothing is more ridiculous than proof that Tyrion is Aerys' <_<

[finger]

I've always felt there was something more to Shae/Tywin. Is there any more evidence that Tywin was spying on Tyrion like that?

Not really, just hints. For instance, Tywin forbids Tyrion to take Shae to KL,... Knowing him, he was making himself sure that Tyrion would take her. Or Varys knowing about Shae since the very start,.. as if he knew she was coming. Mere hints, but...

[Dawson Dayne]

Tywin sleeping with Shae fits perfectly if you assume Tyrion is Aerys' and Tywin refused to be labeled a kinslayer OR a cuckold. In that case, his "you're gonna pay, it's only a matter of time until I craft it perfectly and let everyone see it so they know what I'm capable of" mentality fits perfectly with buying Shae's loyalty to shame Tyrion at his trial after he spat on Tywin's offer to be sent to the wall. And even if it seems OOC for theTywin we know, does him sleeping with the one woman trusted and loved by Tyrion as revenge sound all that out of character? He didn't tell Tyrion because Tywin likely didn't know about Joanna and Aerys until it was too late, and I get the feeling he's eye for an eye down to the letter.

In Tywin's head, Tywin + Joanna = Love

Aerys + Joanna cannot = Love

>thus any offspring are unholy and unlovable since not the product of his and Joanna's love (or his love for Joanna, depending)

so Tyrion...

A. wouldn't deserve to be loved by Tywin

B. would represent Tywin's shame every minute

C. would, by his trial, have spent Tywin's last reserves of patience

Inside Tywin's head: "F*ing Tyrion...... All the shame he's brought on my family, killing his nephew, the King, and now he makes mockery of me again? He won't even save the family what little face we have left by taking the black...... But look! Who's this lovely young lady who seems to know so much about Tyrion? Oh, so THIS is his mistress. Hmmm, two birds with one stone? I can pay a whore better than even he can, and no matter her love for him, she'll take it, knowing you don't say no to Tywin Lannister. Also, she's sexy, and I could use a bedwarmer, and oh how sweet it would be to take her from him as his father took Joanna from me......."

And then, what he did to Tysha seems like the earliest part of a pattern of Tywin denying Tyrion love, rather than a one-off event. Just saying.....

[hodor stark]

well thought out theory kudos but i dnt really buy it dont get me wrong i have some crazy theories 2 and i honestly love talking about this stuff and think its great that people think this deeply into the books. but i just think if tyrion wasnt tywins he wouldn't be in the books tywin would of made sure of that IMO.

[Aleesha]

Tywin sleeping with Shae fits perfectly if you assume Tyrion is Aerys' and Tywin refused to be labeled a kinslayer OR a cuckold. In that case, his "you're gonna pay, it's only a matter of time until I craft it perfectly and let everyone see it so they know what I'm capable of" mentality fits perfectly with buying Shae's loyalty to shame Tyrion at his trial after he spat on Tywin's offer to be sent to the wall. And even if it seems OOC for theTywin we know, does him sleeping with the one woman trusted and loved by Tyrion as revenge sound all that out of character? He didn't tell Tyrion because Tywin likely didn't know about Joanna and Aerys until it was too late, and I get the feeling he's eye for an eye down to the letter.

In Tywin's head, Tywin + Joanna = Love

Aerys + Joanna cannot = Love

>thus any offspring are unholy and unlovable since not the product of his and Joanna's love (or his love for Joanna, depending)

so Tyrion...

A. wouldn't deserve to be loved by Tywin

B. would represent Tywin's shame every minute

C. would, by his trial, have spent Tywin's last reserves of patience

Inside Tywin's head: "F*ing Tyrion...... All the shame he's brought on my family, killing his nephew, the King, and now he makes mockery of me again? He won't even save the family what little face we have left by taking the black...... But look! Who's this lovely young lady who seems to know so much about Tyrion? Oh, so THIS is his mistress. Hmmm, two birds with one stone? I can pay a whore better than even he can, and no matter her love for him, she'll take it, knowing you don't say no to Tywin Lannister. Also, she's sexy, and I could use a bedwarmer, and oh how sweet it would be to take her from him as his father took Joanna from me......."

And then, what he did to Tysha seems like the earliest part of a pattern of Tywin denying Tyrion love, rather than a one-off event. Just saying.....

There's no need to over-think this so much. If Tyrion was actually Aerys' son, Tywin would have tossed him into the sea first chance he got. Plain and simple.

[Dawson Dayne]

There's no need to over-think this so much. If Tyrion was actually Aerys' son, Tywin would have tossed him into the sea first chance he got. Plain and simple.

and be a kinslayer? Or explain it away? "nah, it wasn't really my kid, it was the Mad King's,........yeah, he bagged my wife...... :-(" That would NEVER happen. Tywin would never LET that happen. Appearances count for way too much in Westerosi politics for him to do anything but swallow his pride and wait. Killing baby Tyrion would bring bad juju that even his pragmatist brain wouldn't invite into his already convoluted machinations. i doubt he'd do it publicly or in private. When i read him telling Tyrion "you are not my son" it kinda made sense. people can explain it away, but I just don't think that was a ploy, i think that was a slip-up due to anger.

[Aleesha]

and be a kinslayer? Or explain it away? "nah, it wasn't really my kid, it was the Mad King's,........yeah, he bagged my wife...... :-(" That would NEVER happen. Tywin would never LET that happen. Appearances count for way too much in Westerosi politics for him to do anything but swallow his pride and wait. Killing baby Tyrion would bring bad juju that even his pragmatist brain wouldn't invite into his already convoluted machinations. i doubt he'd do it publicly or in private. When i read him telling Tyrion "you are not my son" it kinda made sense. people can explain it away, but I just don't think that was a ploy, i think that was a slip-up due to anger.

Tywin doesn't hide or swallow his pride. That's just not his style. Nor does he have a shred of conscience over murdering babies (evidenced by his sacking of KL resulting in the murder of Rhaegar's kids). If Tyrion wasn't his son he would have found a way to dispose of him long back without being labelled a kinslayer in the eyes Westeros. Take the case of Randyll Tarly and how he dealt with Sam.

Basically this theory assumes that Joanna loved Aerys, that she cheated on Tywin right under his nose, and Tywin forgave her for it and raised the bastard child born out of that affair as his own. Calling it far-fetched would be an understatement :P

[Pikachu101]

Tywin doesn't hide or swallow his pride. That's just not his style. Nor does he have a shred of conscience over murdering babies (evidenced by his sacking of KL resulting in the murder of Rhaegar's kids). If Tyrion wasn't his son he would have found a way to dispose of him long back without being labelled a kinslayer in the eyes Westeros. Take the case of Randyll Tarly and how he dealt with Sam.

Basically this theory assumes that Joanna loved Aerys, that she cheated on Tywin right under his nose, and Tywin forgave her for it and raised the bastard child born out of that affair as his own. Calling it far-fetched would be an understatement :P

This!

Tywin isn't Catelyn Stark people, if Tyrion was a bastard he would have killed him the minute he opened his mismatched eyes.

And like I said before to insist Tyrion isn't Tywin's you're arguing for George to destroy the complexity of the messed up father - son relationship they have.

[Aleesha]

This!

Tywin isn't Catelyn Stark people, if Tyrion was a bastard he would have killed him the minute he opened his mismatched eyes.

This theory would actually make Tywin more forgiving than Catelyn since he raised Tyrion as a Lannister while Cat would never have allowed Ned to legitimize Jon as a Stark. I must have skipped significant portions of the books to miss out on that revelation. :P

And like I said before to insist Tyrion isn't Tywin's you're arguing for George to destroy the complexity of the messed up father - son relationship they have.

Yep. And for what? So Tyrion can ride dragons?? Please...just no. <_<

[The Prince of Ice]

If Tyrion rides a dragon.... Id say i just lost most my faith in this series and GRRM as a writer, IMO it would just show too much favoritism for Tyrion on Georges part.

[Dany Girl]

Tywin doesn't hide or swallow his pride. That's just not his style. Nor does he have a shred of conscience over murdering babies (evidenced by his sacking of KL resulting in the murder of Rhaegar's kids). If Tyrion wasn't his son he would have found a way to dispose of him long back without being labelled a kinslayer in the eyes Westeros. Take the case of Randyll Tarly and how he dealt with Sam.

Basically this theory assumes that Joanna loved Aerys, that she cheated on Tywin right under his nose, and Tywin forgave her for it and raised the bastard child born out of that affair as his own. Calling it far-fetched would be an understatement :P

:agree: Tywin could easily have made Tyrion's death as a baby look like an accident/ complication of his deformity. He wouldn't raise a bastard as his own. The only reason he didn't kill Tyrion was that Kinslaying is one of the worst crimes in the eyes of the gods and he does believe in the 7.

ps, I absolutely hate this theory. Basically all "X is a secret Targ" theories outside R+L= J. Making Tyrion a Targ negates all the growth he's made. It makes his entire storyline inconsequential. He's been striving to prove himself as Lannister enough. Worthy of CR. Making him not a Lannister makes all of that worthless, along with all the comparisons to Tywin. Tyrion is 100% Tywins, along with the twins.

[Djinn]

Tywin has his niece Joy Hill raised in Casterly Rock(actually arranges for her to be the next Lady Westerling). Anyway, don't think Tyrion is a secret Targaryen. But Littlefinger is certainly a secret Lannister!

[chrisdaw]

GRRM has allowed plenty of room to have Tywin raise children that were not his own. For starters he may have only suspected they were not his, but could not be sure. Even if Joanna was suspected by Tywin of having a secret affair with Aerys, one would still consider it likely both Tywin and Joanna were still at it themselves.

There's also other avenues GRRM could go or include.

Tywin hated to be laughed at, hated the Lannister name to be laughed at and is perhaps, above all else, a dynasty builder.

For Tywin to be infertile, impotent or otherwise have difficulties fathering children would have to be among his greatest fear. There would be few ways in Westeros for a man to be more humiliated than for such difficulties to become public knowledge, and his ability to dynasty build is all but destroyed if he can not father children.

It's established that Joanna held heavy sway with Tywin and that he genuinely loved her. Just how much of the show she ran behind the scenes isn't fully revealed but with the information we're given there's the possibility he was openly subservient to her when they were alone or more likely emotionally within her powers. The woman was of a Cadet branch of House Lannister, and managed to climb her way up into her Great Lord's bed.

She is Cersei's mother, the woman who taught her that tears were a woman's weapon. Cersei, who emotionally wrapped Jaime around her finger, told Sansa that tears were not a woman's only weapon and who has freely used her weapons in pursuit of power.

Joanna could have held so much power over Tywin that he would simply believe her lies or even be too afraid to raise his suspicions.

[Aleesha]

:agree: Tywin could easily have made Tyrion's death as a baby look like an accident/ complication of his deformity. He wouldn't raise a bastard as his own. The only reason he didn't kill Tyrion was that Kinslaying is one of the worst crimes in the eyes of the gods and he does believe in the 7.

ps, I absolutely hate this theory. Basically all "X is a secret Targ" theories outside R+L= J. Making Tyrion a Targ negates all the growth he's made. It makes his entire storyline inconsequential. He's been striving to prove himself as Lannister enough. Worthy of CR. Making him not a Lannister makes all of that worthless, along with all the comparisons to Tywin. Tyrion is 100% Tywins, along with the twins.

Absolutely agree with this point. This is what his arc has been about; this and his conflict with his father. As Genna Lannister said to Jaime: "Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you."

GRRM has allowed plenty of room to have Tywin raise children that were not his own.

No he hasn't. Tywin is a ruthless, cunning, selfish, egoistic man who is very, very vindictive and this is pretty clear in the text. The rest of your post is just assumptions that have no basis in the text.

It's established that Joanna held heavy sway with Tywin and that he genuinely loved her. Just how much of the show she ran behind the scenes isn't fully revealed but with the information we're given there's the possibility he was openly subservient to her when they were alone or more likely emotionally within her powers. The woman was of a Cadet branch of House Lannister, and managed to climb her way up into her Great Lord's bed.

She is Cersei's mother, the woman who taught her that tears were a woman's weapon. Cersei, who emotionally wrapped Jaime around her finger, told Sansa that tears were not a woman's only weapon and who has freely used her weapons in pursuit of power.

I'm sorry but this made me laugh :lol: Now for Tyrion to be a Targ, not only does Tywin have to be a paragon of virtue but Joanna has to be an evil, manipulative bitch. Again, no basis in the text whatsoever.

And I've yet to see how Tyrion being a Targ would advance the story in a good way.