Crazy theory, could Tyrion not be a Lannister but a Targaryen?

[Ser Greg of House House]

What do you guys think about Joanna, Lyanna and Rhaella (mothers of Tyrion, Jon and Dany respectively) dying in childbirth?

That's what keeps bugging me. I hate the idea of a Targ-blooded Tyrion, but... If we suppose there are three heads... Mothers dying fits with the blood sacrifice theme and all.

[chrisdaw]

Because Aerys seems to be a singularly unappealing character, that's why.

Besides being the most powerful man in the Seven Kingdoms during his lifetime.

[Pikachu101]

who re these two?

Aegon (if he's the real deal) and Jon

[Lord Damian]

I think it far more likely that Cercei and Ser Jaime are Aerys II Targaryen's children. There is the more likelyhood that he is Tywin's only truebornb son.

[Lord Varys]

If Tyrion turns out to be the son of Aerys, this could actually resolve some problems he has to face in the future:

1. It could explain why he becomes a dragonrider. His Targaryen blood would be much purer than Quentyn's.

2. It could help him to forgive himself (and gain forgiveness in the sight of gods and men) for the patricide he committed.

3. It could help him to gain an important position at Dany's court.

It would be a nice twist, and I could see it happening. Especially due to the fact that AGoT already told us that Tyrion had dragon dreams.

[Aleesha]

If Tyrion turns out to be the son of Aerys, this could actually resolve some problems he has to face in the future:

1. It could explain why he becomes a dragonrider. His Targaryen blood would be much purer than Quentyn's.

2. It could help him to forgive himself (and gain forgiveness in the sight of gods and men) for the patricide he committed.

3. It could help him to gain an important position at Dany's court.

It would be a nice twist, and I could see it happening. Especially due to the fact that AGoT already told us that Tyrion had dragon dreams.

You know, these are the exact reasons why this wouldn't be a nice twist at all. Tyrion in ADwD slumped to an all-time low, because he had to abandon his country and run away as a criminal who had killed his own father. Its not GRRM's style to simply resolve it with a "hey, it doesn't matter coz Tyrion's a secret Targ and he didn't really kill his dad and he's gonna ride dragons and save the world".

[Brixon]

Not sure I would agree Tyrion is a Targ, but it interesting that the mothers of Dany, Tyrion, and Jon (if R+L=J is true) died at child birth.

[The King's Justice]

I understand that the vast majority of people hate the Lannsiter children Targaryen theory with a religious passion! Bad story telling or just taking away from the characters we've loved reading about etc etc.

I posted a topic about this quite recently too and recieved some quite strong comments about it being absolutely terrible for the story and it cannot be true whatsoever. I believe that there are some small hints that Tyrion could be a Targaryen, but I hope he isn't becuase I agree it would take away from his character.

I basically just want people to acknowledge that it is definitely hinted at and it could be a nice red herring George has left in there for us to argue about.

[Aleesha]

I understand that the vast majority of people hate the Lannsiter children Targaryen theory with a religious passion! Bad story telling or just taking away from the characters we've loved reading about etc etc.

I posted a topic about this quite recently too and recieved some quite strong comments about it being absolutely terrible for the story and it cannot be true whatsoever. I believe that there are some small hints that Tyrion could be a Targaryen, but I hope he isn't becuase I agree it would take away from his character.

I basically just want people to acknowledge that it is definitely hinted at and it could be a nice red herring George has left in there for us to argue about.

It would be hinted at only if its true and I don't believe Tyrion is a secret Targ. If there were no other possible secret Targs, maaaybe I would have considered this theory to be more feasible. But the supposed evidence for Tyrion being a Targ has nothing on R+L=J.

Unless there's a Tywin POV I don't know of where he thinks about Joanna's last words to him..."Promise me Tywin" :P

[Roadside Rose]

I read something on similar lines this week http://towerofthehand.com/blog/2013/07/17-sins-of-the-father/index.html

But I feel IF Joanna had Aerys children, it would not be Tyrion. (Assuming something happened on Tywin's wedding night).

If Joanna had Aerys children, it would be Cersei & Jaime. Cersei and Joffrey both join the Aerys rank of being batshit crazy.

Cersei's eyes are also compared to wildfire.

[BeornJ]

This is my first post to this forum so I am expecting great ridicule for what I am about to say (I know... I haven't posted before... I deserve huge backlash), but I believe Tyrion's relationship with his father was so profound and complicated that to reveal he is not Tywin's son would be detrimental to both character's development. Now, in saying that I can imagine a scenario in with Tywin was not aware of Tyrion's true father and hated him because he killed his wife... but through some extreme circumstances Joanna discovered very late that her child was not Tywin's and attempted to abort the pregnancy and thus created his dwarfism) But anyway... Tyrion is Tywin's son simply because the father does not recognise himself in his son. That is enough

[Lord Varys]

For me, Barristan's memory about Tywin's wedding is a very strong hint that Aerys was very interested in Joanna. Why the hell should he not try to get her into his bed later on, when the relationship between him and Tywin was getting worse. The very thing which prevented Aerys from trying to claim or seduce Joanna at the time of her wedding would have been the fact that he and Tywin were friends at this time.

As to the twist stuff:

GRRM already started a complete recreation of Tyrion's character when he revealed that Tysha was not a prostitute. Making Tywin not Tyrion's father would only be the next step. And honestly, I don't see how Tyrion could ever (re-)claim anything in Westeros without some sort of closure. If Daenerys allies with him, her enemies could very well use her connection to him to discredit her claim. He is a convicted kingslayer and he has murdered his father.

[Aleesha]

For me, Barristan's memory about Tywin's wedding is a very strong hint that Aerys was very interested in Joanna. Why the hell should he not try to get her into his bed later on, when the relationship between him and Tywin was getting worse. The very thing which prevented Aerys from trying to claim or seduce Joanna at the time of her wedding would have been the fact that he and Tywin were friends at this time.

A one-sided interest doesn't automatically mean Aerys managed to bed Joanna. Tywin and Aerys were never "friends". Aerys considered Tywin to be beneath him, as evidenced by his rejection of Tywin's proposal to wed Cercei and Rhaegar. Even if we assume that Aerys raped Joanna and got her pregnant, it is really a stretch to assume that Tywin would allow such a child to survive, let alone raise him as his own. And an even bigger stretch to assume that he was in the dark about the situation.

As to the twist stuff:

GRRM already started a complete recreation of Tyrion's character when he revealed that Tysha was not a prostitute. Making Tywin not Tyrion's father would only be the next step. And honestly, I don't see how Tyrion could ever (re-)claim anything in Westeros without some sort of closure. If Daenerys allies with him, her enemies could very well use her connection to him to discredit her claim. He is a convicted kingslayer and he has murdered his father.

There is no "recreation" here. Since we were introduced to Tyrion's character, we know that he hated his father. What happened in ASoS was kind of inevitable, considering how Tywin treated Tyrion. The truth about Tysha served as the final push for this. If Tywin is not really Tyrion's father, this entire character arc would be rendered moot and that is just bad story-telling IMO.

Also how would Tyrion being a Targ bastard absolve him of his crimes (killing Joffrey and Tywin) in the eyes of Westeros? :huh:

[Dawson Dayne]

If true, it' doesn't take away from Tyrion and Tywin's relationship. It just reinforces the idea that nature vs nurture plays a major role. Tyrion isn't conniving and brilliant because Tywin passed those genes onto him, but because he spent his life around Tywin, learning how to be that way. He didn't come out of the womb innately "knowing" how to play the game of thrones, he learned by watching his family and through experience. It wouldn't hurt their relationship because it would show that it doesn't matter who gave birth to you, but it's more important the choices you make with the info you're given. It would also play perfectly into the idea that the three heads of the dragon kill their mothers during birth, and also it would take away the idea that he's a kinslayer, while balancing and contrasting him with Jaime, since, if true, it means Jaime killed Tyrion's father and Tyrion killed Jaime's.

[Lord Varys]

First, Tywin and Aerys were indeed friends during their youth. That's why Aerys named Tywin Hand. And they worked closely together during most of Aerys' reign. Read the books.

Second, I do not believe that Aerys raped or forced Lady Joanna into his bed. It has been said that Aerys was amiable, kindly, and generous when he did not have his lapses, so there is no reason why it should not be possible that Aerys successfully seduced Joanna. They must have known each other since their childhood (Tywin served as squire at the Red Keep in his childhood, Joanna served Princess Rhaella as lady-in-waiting - reread ASoS), and - more importantly - pretty much no one liked the man Tywin eventually became. Many people believe that Tywin was deeply in love and devoted to Joanna (she supposedly ruled him), but no one ever said that Joanna was deeply in love with Tywin!

It's easily possible that started to be as pissed with her husband as Aerys was with his Hand. Everything they would have needed was time and opportunity. And we have no idea how often young Aerys visited Casterly Rock, or how often Lady Joanna visited her husband at KL. We know that she lived at Casterly Rock right before Tyrion's birth, but this does not mean that she did not reside with Tywin at KL for some time (after all, Tywin would have to be with Joanna to father Tyrion, just as Aerys would ;-)).

The fact that Tywin did raise Tyrion as his own child does indicate that he did not know that Tyrion was not his son. Else he might very well have killed him. But even if he did know, he could still have spared his life. In fact, it's easily possible that he swallowed the humiliation and raised Tyrion as his son to honor Joanna, and to prevent the world from learning that the great Tywin Lannister is a cuckold. That would be entirely in his character, especially with the whole Shae thing we find out in the very end. And it would add another layer of reason why Tywin was so determined to prevent Tyrion from becoming Lord of Casterly Rock.

With 'recreation' I referred to the fact that the Tysha-revelation completely changed Tyrion's outlook on women. He should now be able to realize and believe that women can love him despite his looks and size.

A similar thing could happen if Tyrion learns that he is not Lord Tywin's son. He would then not be guilty of patricide. It could add a very interesting layer to future conflicts when Tyrion meets Jaime again, who would then be the murderer of his father.

[Light a wight tonight]

This is my first post to this forum so I am expecting great ridicule for what I am about to say (I know... I haven't posted before... I deserve huge backlash), but I believe Tyrion's relationship with his father was so profound and complicated that to reveal he is not Tywin's son would be detrimental to both character's development. Now, in saying that I can imagine a scenario in with Tywin was not aware of Tyrion's true father and hated him because he killed his wife... but through some extreme circumstances Joanna discovered very late that her child was not Tywin's and attempted to abort the pregnancy and thus created his dwarfism) But anyway... Tyrion is Tywin's son simply because the father does not recognise himself in his son. That is enough

No ridicule: Quite a few people are in complete agreement with your argument.

[Aleesha]

First, Tywin and Aerys were indeed friends during their youth. That's why Aerys named Tywin Hand. And they worked closely together during most of Aerys' reign. Read the books.

Second, I do not believe that Aerys raped or forced Lady Joanna into his bed. It has been said that Aerys was amiable, kindly, and generous when he did not have his lapses, so there is no reason why it should not be possible that Aerys successfully seduced Joanna. They must have known each other since their childhood (Tywin served as squire at the Red Keep in his childhood, Joanna served Princess Rhaella as lady-in-waiting - reread ASoS), and - more importantly - pretty much no one liked the man Tywin eventually became. Many people believe that Tywin was deeply in love and devoted to Joanna (she supposedly ruled him), but no one ever said that Joanna was deeply in love with Tywin!

It's easily possible that started to be as pissed with her husband as Aerys was with his Hand. Everything they would have needed was time and opportunity. And we have no idea how often young Aerys visited Casterly Rock, or how often Lady Joanna visited her husband at KL. We know that she lived at Casterly Rock right before Tyrion's birth, but this does not mean that she did not reside with Tywin at KL for some time (after all, Tywin would have to be with Joanna to father Tyrion, just as Aerys would ;-)).

This is my main problem with this theory. There are too many assumptions that need to be made for it to hold water. And most of these assumptions are based off absence of evidence to the contrary. None of these assumptions are actually supported by the text. For eg., you say "Many people believe that Tywin was deeply in love and devoted to Joanna (she supposedly ruled him), but no one ever said that Joanna was deeply in love with Tywin!"

This is not proof for anything. All we know definitely from the text is that Aerys was infatuated with Joanna.

The fact that Tywin did raise Tyrion as his own child does indicate that he did not know that Tyrion was not his son. Else he might very well have killed him. But even if he did know, he could still have spared his life. In fact, it's easily possible that he swallowed the humiliation and raised Tyrion as his son to honor Joanna, and to prevent the world from learning that the great Tywin Lannister is a cuckold. That would be entirely in his character, especially with the whole Shae thing we find out in the very end. And it would add another layer of reason why Tywin was so determined to prevent Tyrion from becoming Lord of Casterly Rock.

This would be so completely OOC for Tywin that I don't even know where to start. Consider Tywin's disproportionate reaction to his father's mistress as well as Tysha. No matter how much he loved Joanna, Tywin is not the the sort of man who would forgive her for cheating on him with a mad king. And raise a bastard as his own. That's just....preposterous :stunned: Tywin doesn't hide. He makes a spectacle of punishing anyone who slights his pride or family.

With 'recreation' I referred to the fact that the Tysha-revelation completely changed Tyrion's outlook on women. He should now be able to realize and believe that women can love him despite his looks and size.

A similar thing could happen if Tyrion learns that he is not Lord Tywin's son. He would then not be guilty of patricide. It could add a very interesting layer to future conflicts when Tyrion meets Jaime again, who would then be the murderer of his father.

Uhh...how did the truth about Tysha change Tyrion's outlook on women? He's a shell of a man in ADwD, threatening and raping prostitutes. If anything his attitude towards women has become worse.

Why should Tyrion be absolved of patricide? That seems like a cheap ploy to me, for Tyrion to knowingly kill his father just for GRRM to reveal that it wasn't his father after all. Tyrion has killed his father, he has to suffer the consequences. (Not that I disapprove of his actions in this case. Tywin got what was coming to him and I cheered when Tyrion crossbowed him :D )

[Inquisitor Glokta]

This is my first post to this forum so I am expecting great ridicule for what I am about to say (I know... I haven't posted before... I deserve huge backlash), but I believe Tyrion's relationship with his father was so profound and complicated that to reveal he is not Tywin's son would be detrimental to both character's development. Now, in saying that I can imagine a scenario in with Tywin was not aware of Tyrion's true father and hated him because he killed his wife... but through some extreme circumstances Joanna discovered very late that her child was not Tywin's and attempted to abort the pregnancy and thus created his dwarfism) But anyway... Tyrion is Tywin's son simply because the father does not recognise himself in his son. That is enough

:agree:

And welcome to the forum!

[Lord Varys]

How the hell does Tywin punish everybody who shames House Lannister by sleeping with the very whore who humiliated his son (and thus House Lannister) during her confession in the trial against said son, and why the hell did he give her the golden chain of the Hand?

There is another side to Tywin, and this whole thing might actually allude to that side...

Of course there is yet no proof that Tyrion is Aerys' son (just as there were only hints that we would eventually meet Aegon VI before ADwD came out). But there are hints. And we would be foolish to ignore those hints. This whole thing was merely a theory before ADwD came out, but with the whole Joanna story it became much more plausible.

[WhiteOwl18]

What do you guys think about Joanna, Lyanna and Rhaella (mothers of Tyrion, Jon and Dany respectively) dying in childbirth?

That's what keeps bugging me. I hate the idea of a Targ-blooded Tyrion, but... If we suppose there are three heads... Mothers dying fits with the blood sacrifice theme and all.

I think that in a medieval world, where women dying in childbirth is quite common, there is nothing really extraordinary about that. Also, consider that Joanna was carrying a baby with dwarfism, Lyanna was 16 (which means that her hips might not have been fully developped) and Rhaella was probably over 40. All of those factors would make their pregnancies highly risky nowadays; imagine how it would be back then! I don't think it connects them in any spiritual/prophetic/magical aspect. Also, I highly doubt that Tyrion is a Targ.