"Good" characters who become "bad/evil"?

[morius]

Hello everyone!

I was thinking, we've seen our share of "bad" characters who eventually redeem themselves and become better people.

I know most of the characters are in a moral grey area, but have we seen any characters who started out as good people and, so far, ended up becoming evil?

Lots of people agree that Littlefinger has become more evil, but he was never a good person anyway.

So, do you guys think there are any characters that started out "good" in the books and are now in the villainous side?

[Young Falcon]

Tyrion's a much better person in Game, than he is in Dance.

[N/A]

Dany

[Mad Monkey]

I don't see how LF has changed all that much over the course of the series though. The only difference now is that we're seeing his plans unfold.

Catelyn Stark as Lady Stoneheart isn't quite a villain, but she has definitely lost her compassion and evenhandedness. The Brotherhood Without Banners has followed similar trajectory; they once looked at themselves as heroes protecting the smallfolk but now they're on some kind of crusade of vengeance instead.

[Tim Thomason]

Arya's getting there, but she's got ways to go.

Tywin was always 'bad,' but he had an ounce of respect there for a second.

Stannis according to some, and there's indications that he may get a little more worse in the next book or so.

Marillion, I guess, might qualify.

[Sullen]

Tyrion, Dany, Arya, and arguably Bran.

[Steinnis]

Theon.

[TheMysteriousOne]

Dany isn't a villain or bad/evil.

[SeanF]

I think it's unfair to conclude that Tyrion, Dany, Arya, and Bran are evil, but they have become very morally compromised, as the story has progressed.

[Sullen]

Dany isn't a villain or bad/evil.

I absolutely love Dany, but "A Dragon plants no trees" is far from being what a good character would say.

[Steinnis]

I think it's unfair to conclude that Tyrion, Dany, Arya, and Bran are evil, but they have become very morally compromised, as the story has progressed.

Yeah, some have went down some dark paths, but that doesn't neccessarily make them 'evil'. Same with Theon, he's done some bad things, but he's trying to make up for them, in a way.

[Woman of War]

There are not two sides for me, characters are rarely either "good" or "evil",there are all the shades in between. The onion with a rotten spot is not a completely rotten onion, this is ideological fundamentalism.

Take Tyrion: the author just had to bring his character down to be morally darker in order to build him up in the books to follow, he has been a most complex character from the beginning who has all potential for good or darkness in him. And we will see if he embraces his inner Tywin or will find his own identity.

Then there is Sansa who starts out as spoiled selfish brat, became themartyrlike virginal madonna of Kings Landing and may now turn into a villain along with LF or have a part in bringing the bad guys down.

No character's fate is chiselled in stone. We are maybe two thirds through the story. So even the darkest character can yet become a positive hero in the end, redeemed in the eyes of readers who perceive themselves as the authority of divine judgement. But Martin himself will not open the karmic ledgers of morality for each character and allocate survival and death to his characters like a good bookkeeper, he will write a compelling story.

Many deserve to die and yet live and many who die deserve life.

[A Man Has Said]

There's Samwell Tardy, who may have been craven but most would agree he started out being portrayed as a good person. Then out of nowhere, BAM! - he mercilessly kills Puddles the Other. Since then he's been up to no good; breaking his vows by sleeping with Gilly, hanging out with ne'er-do-well shape-shifter Pate/The Alchemist/Jaqen and Alleras, who is also someone pretending to be something that they're not.

[TheMysteriousOne]

I absolutely love Dany, but "A Dragon plants no trees" is far from being what a good character would say.

Personally, I took from that that she's going to be less merciful and forgiving towards her enemies, and start being more ruthless towards them. I don't believe that makes her bad or evil, I think it makes her more realistic. It really depends on who her enemies will be that will determine whether or not she'll stay more or less good or become evil, which I strongly doubt.

[Pikachu101]

Arya and Tyrion are definitely getting darker, but I'd say they're more of anti-heroes rather than actual villains

Dany is going to become a villain, it would make her less annoying :P

[Roose The Weddingcrasher]

Dany isn't a villain or bad/evil.

There should be a thread solely devoted to proving that she, in fact, is, since the change she undergoes is gradual, which makes her descent less obvious. But she obviously isn't that tormented innocent girl from AGOT.

[A Man Has Said]

There are not two sides for me, characters are rarely either "good" or "evil",there are all the shades in between. The onion with a rotten spot is not a completely rotten onion, this is ideological fundamentalism.

Take Tyrion: the author just had to bring his character down to be morally darker in order to build him up in the books to follow, he has been a most complex character from the beginning who has all potential for good or darkness in him. And we will see if he embraces his inner Tywin or will find his own identity.

Then there is Sansa who starts out as spoiled selfish brat, became themartyrlike virginal madonna of Kings Landing and may now turn into a villain along with LF or have a part in bringing the bad guys down.

No character's fate is chiselled in stone. We are maybe two thirds through the story. So even the darkest character can yet become a positive hero in the end, redeemed in the eyes of readers who perceive themselves as the authority of divine judgement. But Martin himself will not open the karmic ledgers of morality for each character and allocate survival and death to his characters like a good bookkeeper, he will write a compelling story.

Many deserve to die and yet live and many who die deserve life.

Great comment! :agree:

I especially like that GRRM has Melisandre deliver the 'rotten onion' speech in one part of the book, and in another he has Sam pick up an onion, cut out the bad spot and eat the rest. So he very much telegraphs the fact that Melisandre's Manichean way of looking at things as GOOD versus EVIL is just a load of bull.

ETA: Thread: If half an onion is black with rot

[SeanF]

I absolutely love Dany, but "A Dragon plants no trees" is far from being what a good character would say.

Dany certainly wants to be a good person, and in some ways, she is. But, she has a cruel streak a yard wide. And, crucially, if she wants to fulfil her ambitions, innocent people must die.

[TheMysteriousOne]

But she obviously isn't that tormented innocent girl from AGOT.

I agree.

[Mad Monkey]

Dany certainly wants to be a good person, and in some ways, she is. But, she has a cruel streak a yard wide. And, crucially, if she wants to fulfil her ambitions, innocent people must die.

That applies to every character who wants political power in the series though. "Villain" would probably lose all meaning if it could be applied just as well to Robb Stark as it could to Ramsay Bolton. That just makes the whole Manichean dichotomy thing that other posters were talking about just look even sillier, because it ends up with weird classifications that most people wouldn't ordinarily make if they could choose from a range wider than "total perfection" and "pure evil".

I especially like that GRRM has Melisandre deliver the 'rotten onion' speech in one part of the book, and in another he has Sam pick up an onion, cut out the bad spot and eat the rest. So he very much telegraphs the fact that Melisandre's Manichean way of looking at things as GOOD versus EVIL is just a load of bull.

That makes sense. I also liked when Stannis said something like, "good acts don't wash away the bad acts, and bad acts don't wash away the good acts". It was surprisingly nuanced perspective from a man like this.