Shireen's True Purpose (spoilers)

[silentwanderer]

...Shireen's true purpose is become the girl version of the Night's King and lead the Others in the same way...

There is Death inside of her, several characters have established that at one point or another. If the same condition that's killing Connigton keeps her in the middle of Death and Life, I could certainly picture her leading an army of undead people.

[the_one_who_was_promised]

But, uhhhhhhhhhhhh, on the other hand, waking the Stark kings from their crypts would be an awesome surprise army I'd love to see, so I guess that makes me a hypocrite. Fine. Gargoyles for everyone who wants them!

Even though Stannis Lives' theory is awesome, well thought out and makes excellent sense, I can't help think that it might be something as relatively simple as waking dragons from stone in the end (ie. the crypts in Winterfell).

On a recent re-read of Game of Thrones, I was struck at how I failed to notice first time round how many references there are of stone pertaining to Winterfell - such as the stone walls, the stone hall etc etc.

When speaking of other characters, GRRM also uses their origins to describe them - such as Theon holding Robb with his "iron" grip (He is one from the Iron Islands after all), and Cersei and Jaime's golden locks being compared to that of a lion.

However, given the foreshadowing and GRRM's own surprised response to a journalist bringing up the prospect of Shireen's possible future sacrifice, I am inclined to think that something rather ominous is on the cards..

[jons nissa]

However, given the foreshadowing and GRRM's own surprised response to a journalist bringing up the prospect of Shireen's possible future sacrifice, I am inclined to think that something rather ominous is on the cards..

grrm's surprise might be the belief that shireen will definitely be sacrificed. there is some forecasting that melisandre will want to burn her but there is the fact that she survived the weaker greyscale as a child and will be immune to the stronger, fatal strain. her future role is nowhere near as "in stone" as some think.

[Stannis Lives]

grrm's surprise might be the belief that shireen will definitely be sacrificed. there is some forecasting that melisandre will want to burn her but there is the fact that she survived the weaker greyscale as a child and will be immune to the stronger, fatal strain. her future role is nowhere near as "in stone" as some think.

i certainly think shireen burning to save jon would be extremely shocking to the readership and would bring up an entire philosophical debate of morality. I think it's precisely the type of reaction that GRRM wants and it is the only way for Jon to come back without having a "fantastical", inconsistent, improbable event like Jon becoming Ghost forever, or Jon coming back as a wight. The only other option to maintain the quality of the narrative IMO, is for Jon to actually be dead. I don't see any other potential option. And as much as I love GRRM's dedication to a "nobody is safe" philosophy, too many of the series' finest, most complex characters have been removed from the equation (Tywin, Ned, Caitlyn, Robb, Joffrey, Sandor, Oberyn etc). Two 1200 page novels carried solely by Tyrion and Arya is not enough.

[jons nissa]

i certainly think shireen burning to save jon would be extremely shocking to the readership and would bring up an entire philosophical debate of morality. I think it's precisely the type of reaction that GRRM wants and it is the only way for Jon to come back without having a "fantastical", inconsistent, improbable event like Jon becoming Ghost forever, or Jon coming back as a wight.

i agree it would be shocking and fit well in jon's story for shireen to be sacrificed for him but that doesn't take in account that she survived the weaker strain of greyscale. that must be important or it is pointless. she is one of the few people in westeros immune to the fatal strain that seems to be headed for the 7 kingdoms and having her killed for jon would make that fact superfluous.

as you said, the book is about more than tyrion and arya. and jon.

[The Red Melli]

I think Shireen is going to play a important role in WoW.

But I don't think Melisandre is going to sacrifice Shireen in order to save Jon Snow.

Thoros didn't use kingsblood and in the show Mel and thoros met each other I'm not sure if this is a spoiler.

And experimenting with Jon's body is a waste of time and I'm sure Melisandre knows this.

[Duncan the Average Sized]

Agree with above post, feel Shireen being sacrificed will cause Davos to abandon Stannis's cause completely which seems to require a complete 180 regarding his character arc. What is the Onion Knight without loyatly?

Seems wherever Stannis ends up Davos will be by his side, this turn of events would leave Davos rudderless and he seems to much of an important character for that to be the case.

"The North will only know peace when the body of the last Frey covers the grave of the last Bolton"

[Stannis Lives]

i agree it would be shocking and fit well in jon's story for shireen to be sacrificed for him but that doesn't take in account that she survived the weaker strain of greyscale. that must be important or it is pointless. she is one of the few people in westeros immune to the fatal strain that seems to be headed for the 7 kingdoms and having her killed for jon would make that fact superfluous.

as you said, the book is about more than tyrion and arya. and jon.

Don't they explain in ADWD that greyscale is usually not fatal in children (or so it's believed)? They then debate whether or not Shireen is truly a survivor or if it simply takes longer to manifest in children.

[jons nissa]

Don't they explain in ADWD that greyscale is usually not fatal in children (or so it's believed)? They then debate whether or not Shireen is truly a survivor or if it simply takes longer to manifest in children.

actually no, the maesters agree that a child that survives greyscale will not catch the lethal version:

The curse was oft seen in children, especially in damp, cold climes. The afflicted flesh stiffened, calcified, and cracked, though the dwarf had read that greyscale’s progress could be stayed by limes, mustard poultices, and scalding-hot baths (the maesters said) or by prayer, sacrifice, and fasting (the septons insisted). Then the disease passed, leaving its young victims disfigured but alive. Maesters and septons alike agreed that children marked by greyscale could never be touched by the rarer mortal form of the affliction, nor by its terrible swift cousin, the grey plague.

shireen seems destined for a greater purpose.

[Stannis Lives]

actually no, the maesters agree that a child that survives greyscale will not catch the lethal version:

shireen seems destined for a greater purpose.

I do agree that shireen is destined for a greater purpose, to save Jons life and allow AA to be "reborn". It has been debated whether or not children survive. I apologize for not providing the text earlier.

"The maesters say greyscale is not—"

"The maesters may believe what they wish. Ask a woods witch if you would know the truth. The grey death sleeps, only to wake again. The child is not clean!"

Jon later ponders this statement, questioning his knowledge, wondering if Shireen truly is safe.

"She seems a sweet girl. You cannot know—"

"I can. You know nothing, Jon Snow." Val seized his arm. "I want the monster out of there. Him and his wet nurses. You cannot leave them in that same tower as the dead girl."

Jon shook her hand away. "She is not dead."

"She is. Her mother cannot see it. Nor you, it seems. Yet death is there." She walked away from him, stopped, turned back. "I brought you Tormund Giantsbane. Bring me my monster."

"If I can, I will."

"Do. You owe me a debt, Jon Snow."

Jon watched her stride away. She is wrong. She must be wrong. Greyscale is not so deadly as she claims, not in children."

[jons nissa]

Jon later ponders this statement when he sees Shireen wondering if she truly is safe.

so we have the word of many maesters and a woods witch. the age old battle of science vs. tradition. we'll see who wins that fight.

[Stannis Lives]

so we have the word of many maesters and a woods witch. the age old battle of science vs. tradition. we'll see who wins that fight.

:dunno: I think that's the bigger question for when the Battle for the Dawn begins.

[jons nissa]

:dunno: I think that's the bigger question for when the Battle for the Dawn begins.

i agree. hard to say which way grrm will go but in the rl, science tends to win.

i am wondering if the maesters are correct about her and that she would be the key to curing greyscale similar to how vaccines work in the rl but that superstition wins out and she is sacrificed before people understand her value. that seems very grrm-like. i hope i'm wrong about that though. ultimately i don't think jon will be saved by melisandre. i think it will be bran and the old gods' magic, not r'hollor.

[The Red Melli]

i agree. hard to say which way grrm will go but in the rl, science tends to win.

i am wondering if the maesters are correct about her and that she would be the key to curing greyscale similar to how vaccines work in the rl but that superstition wins out and she is sacrificed before people understand her value. that seems very grrm-like. i hope i'm wrong about that though. ultimately i don't think jon will be saved by melisandre. i think it will be bran and the old gods' magic, not r'hollor.

I think it will be a mix with Melisandre and Bran.

Melisandre will realise she can't resurrect Jon alone (if he's dead) and seek for help.

As the story continues Mel will realise that The Others are actually The Great Other all together.

[jons nissa]

Melisandre will realise she can't resurrect Jon alone (if he's dead) and seek for help.

As the story continues Mel will realise that The Others are actually The Great Other all together.

i doubt melisandre will be that accepting of news that her god is not what she thinks. also having the gods all rolled up into one and their followers suddenly working together is far too "disney" for this story, imho.

[The Red Melli]

i doubt melisandre will be that accepting of news that her god is not what she thinks. also having the gods all rolled up into one and their followers suddenly working together is far too "disney" for this story, imho.

Why not? Mel and Bran have both reasons to save Jon Snow.

In order to save him they will need each other and as The Others are knocking on the wall they will work together in order to destroy the real enemy instead of each other.

[jons nissa]

Why not? Mel and Bran have both reasons to save Jon Snow.

In order to save him they will need each other and as The Others are knocking on the wall they will work together in order to destroy the real enemy instead of each other.

at this point, the only reason melisandre seems interested in jon is to make shadow babies. perhaps that will be enough reason for her to try to save him but it seems very flimsy. also, there is nothing in the text to support the bran and mel needing to work together to save jon at this point and i really doubt that will happen. it's also not clear if they will indeed be on the same side in the war.

[three-eyed monkey]

so we have the word of many maesters and a woods witch. the age old battle of science vs. tradition. we'll see who wins that fight.

I'll go with tradition for two reasons. Firstly, we've seen maesters largely dismiss things like magic, wolf dreams and the Others in a world where such things are real. And secondly, I imagine their medical knowledge is at a fairly infantile state as a science, compared to modern rl medical science.

[The Red Melli]

at this point, the only reason melisandre seems interested in jon is to make shadow babies. perhaps that will be enough reason for her to try to save him but it seems very flimsy. also, there is nothing in the text to support the bran and mel needing to work together to save jon at this point and i really doubt that will happen. it's also not clear if they will indeed be on the same side in the war.

Melisandre is interested in Jon because she sees him in the flames, she also sees Bran that must mean something.

I also think it's a very cheap story to get Snow resurrected in 2 seconds by one person honestly.

[jons nissa]

And secondly, I imagine their medical knowledge is at a fairly infantile state as a science, compared to modern rl medical science.

this is true, however, for a disease like greyscale, all you need is observation. it would be one thing if they claimed they knew how to test for it or something like that. but to say a child surviving it will be immune, all you need to do is watch them. a witch would not necessarily allow he child to live in order to realize there is no threat, much like what val wants to do.

still, old wives tales are correct sometimes so it will be interesting to see where grrm goes with this. i still think he will lean towards the maesters having the right of it.