Shireen's True Purpose (spoilers)

[Fire Eater]

I think Mel will rather use Shireen to wake a stone or shadow dragon after Shireen's greyscale wakes again. Mel will tell Stannis that Shireen is dead anyway so they might as well.

Mel won't resurrect Jon otherwise he will be like UnBeric or UnCat, but rather Br and Bran will aid him, as Jon isn't dead but in a coma.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

Melisandre's first allegiance is to her God, not Stannis. She would do whatever she believes (rightly or wrongly) R'hllor wants her do. She sees fighting the Great Other as her purpose. The WoFK only matters to her because she thinks the realm has to be united to defeat Great Other. If Bleeding Shireen accomplishes this, the poor girl is a goner.

Regarding Mel's power, we don't know that she can't use blood to heal. Even the resurrection wasn't a special power. Thoros himself admits that he couldn't do anything before the first time Beric was killed. He was accidently harnessing a power that seems connected to the birth of the dragons, or maybe the reemergence of magic in general.

Edit: The OP states that Mel will heal Jon, not resurrect him. People keep getting that wrong so I'll point it again.

[King of Winters]

I think Mel will rather use Shireen to wake a stone or shadow dragon after Shireen's greyscale wakes again. Mel will tell Stannis that Shireen is dead anyway so they might as well.

Mel won't resurrect Jon otherwise he will be like UnBeric or UnCat, but rather Br and Bran will aid him, as Jon isn't dead but in a coma.

So Mels will kill Shireen to try and wake the actual stone dragons on Dragonstone?

[wawa15]

I think Shireen will sit on the iron throne in the end.

[Stannis Lives]

What if Mels sacrifices Shireen but it doesn't do anything? I mean as far as we know Mels hasn't resurrected someone or knows how to, and she tries to use Shireen but does it wrong and just ends up killing her.

I can see it going it either way although I do believe that the whole "Kill the boy and let the man be born" line for Jon was for this moment. It is certainly possible that nothing happens and Mel simply ends up getting killed by Stannis for killing his daughter. Maybe that's how Stannis' sword truly becomes Lightbringer? I am far more partial to Jon though. I think this goes back to the entire argument of how R+L is too obvious and Jon as AA is too obvious. However, we have had 20 years to figure this out and the average reader certainly doesn't find this obvious until they come to the internet. There really was no internet when GRRM started this story. When it's all said and done, I think R+L=J and J=AA. Even though I LOVE Stannis. There is also the Tyrion POV where Greyscale is fully explained as the disease that turns men into stone. There is Val's foreshadowing of Shireen as "death". And there is Shireen having greyscale to begin with (why?). Now Stannis is "dead", Jon is dying, Mel sees Snow in her flames, Shireen is unprotected, Val and the wildlings won't stop Mel, and ultimately I think the Queen will go along with it, happily even.

[Stannis Lives]

Melisandre's first allegiance is to her God, not Stannis. She would do whatever she believes (rightly or wrongly) R'hllor wants her do. She sees fighting the Great Other as her purpose. The WoFK only matters to her because she thinks the realm has to be united to defeat Great Other. If Bleeding Shireen accomplishes this, the poor girl is a goner.

Regarding Mel's power, we don't know that she can't use blood to heal. Even the resurrection wasn't a special power. Thoros himself admits that he couldn't do anything before the first time Beric was killed. He was accidently harnessing a power that seems connected to the birth of the dragons, or maybe the reemergence of magic in general.

Edit: The OP states that Mel will heal Jon, not resurrect him. People keep getting that wrong so I'll point it again.

:agree:

[Fire Eater]

So Mels will kill Shireen to try and wake the actual stone dragons on Dragonstone?

I think rather some shadow/stone dragon.

[Ser Wun Wun]

I too believe Shireen will be sacrificed. I'm not sure Mel will initiate it, or even if her being sacrificed will be an intentional act by anyone, but I do think it will happen. Here is a post I made some time back trying to gather the foreshadowing for this type of fate for Shireen (some elements you guys may have already touched on, some I think are new to the thread):

I think Shireen is going to die soon. She had a dream in ACOK that a dragon was going to eat her:

The dragons can't eat her because they are made of stone he promises her, an empty promise I think. Then:

Martin said this in an SSM Entry:

Val says that Shireen is dead in ADWD:

Tell me that's not ominous as shit :stunned:

Jon also said this in ADWD:

Burning dead children, which is what Val called Shireen, had ceased to trouble Jon Snow (not what he meant, but the foreshadowing is there)....also very ominous.

And look at the line 'two kings to wake the dragon, first the father and then the son' Swap out 'son' for 'daughter' (Shireen, by Martin's own admission, is King's Blood, just as much a son would be) and this fits what is happening at the Wall extremely well I think. Jon got word that Stannis was "dead" and now he has been assassinated and set up to be "awakened" through resurrection.

If that resurrection process involves a fire that Shireen is consumed in then all the pieces snap into place almost perfectly. Jon's statement on ceasing to be bothered by burning 'dead children' and then Val calling Shireen a 'dead child'. Shireen's dream that a dragon (Jon) would eat her, the "death" of two kings setting off the process (Stannis "dies", which start's a chain of events that leads to the sacrifice of Shireen's King's Blood) that awakens Jon, the dragon.

Stannis was willing to sacrifice an innocent in Edric Storm in ASOS in order to wake a dragon that would save the world. So there is a rather beautiful irony (though morbid as hell) in his own innocent daughter Shireen ending up as the King's Blood sacrifice that wakes the dragon who will save the world (Jon, leading the fight against the Others).

[Stannis Lives]

I too believe Shireen will be sacrificed. I'm not sure Mel will initiate it, or even if her being sacrificed will be an intentional act by anyone, but I do think it will happen. Here is a post I made some time back trying to gather the foreshadowing for this type of fate for Shireen (some elements you guys may have already touched on, some I think are new to the thread):

Martin said this in an SSM Entry:

Val says that Shireen is dead in ADWD:

Tell me that's not ominous as shit :stunned:

Jon also said this in ADWD:

Burning dead children, which is what Val called Shireen, had ceased to trouble Jon Snow (not what he meant, but the foreshadowing is there)....also very ominous.

And look at the line 'two kings to wake the dragon, first the father and then the son' Swap out 'son' for 'daughter' (Shireen, by Martin's own admission, is King's Blood, just as much a son would be) and this fits what is happening at the Wall extremely well I think. Jon got word that Stannis was "dead" and now he has been assassinated and set up to be "awakened" through resurrection.

If that resurrection process involves a fire that Shireen is consumed in then all the pieces snap into place almost perfectly. Jon's statement on ceasing to be bothered by burning 'dead children' and then Val calling Shireen a 'dead child'. Shireen's dream that a dragon (Jon) would eat her, the "death" of two kings setting off the process (Stannis "dies", which start's a chain of events that leads to the sacrifice of Shireen's King's Blood) that awakens Jon, the dragon.

Stannis was willing to sacrifice an innocent in Edric Storm in ASOS in order to wake a dragon that would save the world. So there is a rather beautiful irony (though morbid as hell) in his own innocent daughter Shireen ending up as the King's Blood sacrifice that wakes the dragon who will save the world (Jon, leading the fight against the Others).

:agree: I've always thought Mel would sacrifice Shireen since her introduction. This is the moment, and it ties in with the prophecy and Martin's careful metaphorical wording of Ser Patrick's bleeding stars, Bowen's tears, and Jon's smoking wound.

[Pod The Impaler]

Val says that Shireen is dead in ADWD:

“I can. You know nothing, Jon Snow.” Val seized his arm. “I want the monster out of there. Him and his wet nurses. You cannot leave them in that same tower as the dead girl.”

Jon shook her hand away. “She is not dead.”

“She is. Her mother cannot see it. Nor you, it seems. Yet death is there.”

Tell me that's not ominous as shit :stunned:

Val is not a person given to wild flights of fancy. If she is naming Shireen as unclean and her affliction as dangerous, people better listen.

Sure, under normal conditions, maybe you could dismiss what Val said as prejudice and peasant superstition, but not when the dead are actually rising and you have to burn corpses to prevent it.

As well, we have seen the Stone Men on the Rhoyne. They are no myth and definitely hostile. Sure, Maesters say that the sickness does not reawaken in children, that it is not mortal - but up until a short time ago, they also thought the Others and so on were nothing but a myth.

Melisandre also confessed to Jon Snow that she saw great evil within the fool Patchface, and the things coming out of his mouth (some of which were prophetic) make it seem like his being drowned and having come back from it means there are powers in control of him that are not exactly natural.

My theory is still that something bad will happen to Shireen, but what will happen is that Shireen turns to the Other side, so to speak.

So the scenario I imagine is this: In the chaos following the attempt to kill Jon Snow (successful or not), Patchface maybe goes to the place where the Watch has those two wight corpses chained up, and release them. And from there they get Shireen, awakening the "stone man" curse already inside her. And from there it goes to Queen Selyse, who - despite her supposed faith - seems to be full of cold-hearted malevolence already.

[binga]

Morally speaking I don't think George would want to make the sacrifice of a sick child the linchpin behind the defeat of the Others. I think Shireen could be sacrificed but the results wont be good even if Jon is resurrected. There is no red sword resolution to the problems, the characters are heading for disaster in my opinion. I do think the abuse of children will be a big theme in Winds of Winter: Tommen, Myrcella, Shireen, Bran, and Jojen among many others.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

Morally speaking I don't think George would want to make the sacrifice of a sick child the linchpin behind the defeat of the Others. I think Shireen could be sacrificed but the results wont be good even if Jon is resurrected. There is no red sword resolution to the problems, the characters are heading for disaster in my opinion. I do think the abuse of children will be a big theme in Winds of Winter: Tommen, Myrcella, Shireen, Bran, and Jojen among many others.

GRRM has already used the sacrifice of children. Dany had to sacrifice her baby and Drogo to get her dragons. There is also a case to be made that Bran's body had to be sacrificed to unlock his greenseer powers. There was no hint of is power until he unconscious after his fall. The three eyed crow told him he would not walk, but he would fly.

Not to hijack the thread with Dany or Bran talk. The children are used as pawns and sacrifices all the time in this series. I'm not arguing that's morally right, just that the morals in Planetos are dicey and GRRM is good at making us cheer for things we'd otherwise find objectionable.

[Stannis Lives]

Val is not a person given to wild flights of fancy. If she is naming Shireen as unclean and gher affliction as dangerous, people better listen.

Sure, under normal conditions, maybe you could dismiss what Val said as prejudice and peasant superstition, but not when the dead are actually rising and you have to burn corpses to prevent it.

As well, we have seen the Stone Men on the Rhoyne. They are no myth and definitely hostile. Sure, Maesters say that the sickness does not reawaken in children, that it is not mortal - but up until a short time ago, they also thought the Others and so on were nothing but a myth.

Melisandre also confessed to Jon Snow that she saw great evil within the fool Patchface, and the things coming out of his mouth (some of which were prophetic) make it seem like his being drowned and having come back from it means there are powers in control of him that are not exactly natural.

My theory is still that something bad will happen to Shireen, but what will happen is that Shireen turns to the Other side, so to speak.

So the scenario I imagine is this: In the chaos following the attempt to kill Jon Snow (successful or not), Patchface maybe goes to the place where the Watch has those two wight corpses chained up, and release them. And from there they get Shireen, awakening the "stone man" curse already inside her. And from there it goes to Queen Selyse, who - despite her supposed faith - seems to be full of cold-hearted malevolence already.

I'm not so far away from you. I also think Patchface will free the wights and let the others in so to speak. I think his impetus will be the death of shireen though. Mel saw Patchface surrounded by skulls with blood in his mouth and Patchface said "WE will rise from the see on sea horses (paraphrase)". If you subscribe to the sea = death theory of PFs prophecies, as I do, it is apparent that Patchface will rise from the dead on the backs of dead horses. It all just fits so perfectly. Mel sacrificing Shireen. Patchface freeing the wights and letting in the others. The NW being overrun. Jon being "reborn" metaphorically, killing mel, and leading the wildlings and giants from east watch and surviving brothers in the battle for the dawn.

[Stannis Lives]

Morally speaking I don't think George would want to make the sacrifice of a sick child the linchpin behind the defeat of the Others. I think Shireen could be sacrificed but the results wont be good even if Jon is resurrected. There is no red sword resolution to the problems, the characters are heading for disaster in my opinion. I do think the abuse of children will be a big theme in Winds of Winter: Tommen, Myrcella, Shireen, Bran, and Jojen among many others.

I think this scenario brings up a moral conundrum. On the one hand you have the potential death of one of the most popular characters, if not the most popular. You also have the unanswered question of who Jon's parents are. Then you have shireen who is kings blood with a mother who has her own demons. Would she sacrifice her own daughter because of her fervent faith in The Lord of light? This creates a moral battle for the reader as well as the characters. Is a child's life worth the heros? Is your daughters life worth the savior of mankind? Is it ok to kill a child if your favorite character gets to live? And how important is it that the Starks are avenged? I think the morality for both reader and story is EXACTLY why this is such a compelling theory. It will create raging debates while staying true to the story. It will also justify the rebirth of Jon without it being a "fairy tale knight in shiny armor rebirth". Jon's purpose for living will always be questioned and tainted by himself and the readers. Was it worth it? Will he live his life to honor shireen and the price that was paid?

[jons nissa]

I think Mel will rather use Shireen to wake a stone or shadow dragon after Shireen's greyscale wakes again. Mel will tell Stannis that Shireen is dead anyway so they might as well.

Mel won't resurrect Jon otherwise he will be like UnBeric or UnCat, but rather Br and Bran will aid him, as Jon isn't dead but in a coma.

i agree. although i wish it weren't true, ever since shireen dreamt of dragons eating her i thought she was a dead girl walking. add val's reaction to that coupled with melisandre's "need to burn" and her fate seems all but certain.

[intheswamp]

Perhaps, the father and son to wake the dragon are actually a mother and a daughter. House Florent descends from House Gardener, the past kings of the Reach. So, Selyse has king's blood.

[Stannis Lives]

Perhaps, the father and son to wake the dragon are actually a mother and a daughter. House Florent descends from House Gardener, the past kings of the Reach. So, Selyse has king's blood.

interesting. Good catch

[blacken]

I can definitely see Shireen being killed (especially the grey scale reawakening) and her blood being used for something by Mel, but I don't think it will be used for Jon because Jon himself has kingsblood (both the Dragon through R and the Kings of Winter through L). I know that's not an argument per se but it just seems intuitively wrong.

It is interesting to think about what qualifies as Kings Blood though, why would blood magic pay any heed to who sits the iron throne or who claims it?

[The Dragon & The Wolf]

I like this theory as terrible as it is. I think it will be hard for Selyse to swallow at first (if Mel even asks her permission) but she will go along w/ it if she believes it will help Stannis. She already feels terrible for not bringing forth any sons for him and if their daughter can be sacrificed to further his goals then she might be on board. Mel would obviously have to convince her that its for the benefit of Stannis and not Jon clearly as Selyse already has her reservations about him. In which she would reply "no act done in service to the Lord of Light can ever be a sin." Stannis is no where around to stop this either. It also would be an interesting dynamic seeing as how Stannis was always willing to sacrifice others' children but now that its his own? Mmmhh. One more thing isnt greyscale=eventual death a certainty. I remember JonCon wishing he could see Aegon a top the Iron Throne before his eventual death after contacting the disease.

[jons nissa]

Stannis was willing to sacrifice an innocent in Edric Storm in ASOS in order to wake a dragon that would save the world. So there is a rather beautiful irony (though morbid as hell) in his own innocent daughter Shireen ending up as the King's Blood sacrifice that wakes the dragon who will save the world (Jon, leading the fight against the Others).

this is another reason i think shireen is a goner. stannis has already decided the worth of a life against the worth of a realm.