Shireen's True Purpose (spoilers)

[Stannis Lives]

at this point, the only reason melisandre seems interested in jon is to make shadow babies. perhaps that will be enough reason for her to try to save him but it seems very flimsy. also, there is nothing in the text to support the bran and mel needing to work together to save jon at this point and i really doubt that will happen. it's also not clear if they will indeed be on the same side in the war.

. Mel is interested in Jon because she sees him in her flames. When she asks to see AA she sees Snow. Believing that Stannis is dead, will cause her to reinterpret her visions and she will conclude that Jon is AA. Hence the sacrifice of shireen.

[Stannis Lives]

I'll go with tradition for two reasons. Firstly, we've seen maesters largely dismiss things like magic, wolf dreams and the Others in a world where such things are real. And secondly, I imagine their medical knowledge is at a fairly infantile state as a science, compared to modern rl medical science.

. I agree. In the real world, there is no magic. There is magic in westeros. Big difference. I also agree that the maesters are far from academic medical doctors. They have rudimentary understanding of medicine and they are wrong as often as they are right. I have more faith in the woods witches.

[The Red Melli]

. Mel is interested in Jon because she sees him in her flames. When she asks to see AA she sees Snow. Believing that Stannis is dead, will cause her to reinterpret her visions and she will conclude that Jon is AA. Hence the sacrifice of shireen.

Yes, but not for the Shireen part.

I don't think Melisandre will actually try to sacrifice Shireen in order to revive Jon.

Thoros revived Beric without King's blood or a sacrifice and I'm pretty sure Melisandre knows you don't need King's blood.

Experimenting with Jon's body isn't going to be very helpful and I'm sure Mel knows this.

[jons nissa]

. Mel is interested in Jon because she sees him in her flames. When she asks to see AA she sees Snow. Believing that Stannis is dead, will cause her to reinterpret her visions and she will conclude that Jon is AA. Hence the sacrifice of shireen.

again, at this point mel does not doubt that stannis is the aa. she does not understand why she is shown snow and states that in the text. she may arrive at that realization but she hasn't now, yet she does still try to befriend jon. the text does not support it being because of her visions but it does show her seducing him. we are given no other reason but making shadow babies.

[shk12344]

. Mel is interested in Jon because she sees him in her flames. When she asks to see AA she sees Snow. Believing that Stannis is dead, will cause her to reinterpret her visions and she will conclude that Jon is AA. Hence the sacrifice of shireen.

Melisandre absolutely believes Stannis is AA and therefore will be protected by Rhilor. She is on record stating Stannis is alive when asked by Jon if Stannis is dead.

I don't believe she will be convinced by Pink Letter that Stannis is dead. Only thing that will convince her that Stannis is truly dead is vision through fire. That may or may not happen.

[Stannis Lives]

again, at this point mel does not doubt that stannis is the aa. she does not understand why she is shown snow and states that in the text. she may arrive at that realization but she hasn't now, yet she does still try to befriend jon. the text does not support it being because of her visions but it does show her seducing him. we are given no other reason but making shadow babies.

I don't agree with you. I think its pretty clear and I think the text supports it throughout. Stannis also can not be AA if he's dead or at least perceived to be dead. We aren't arguing what has already happened, we are speculating as to what happens next.

[no_payne_no_gain]

again, at this point mel does not doubt that stannis is the aa. she does not understand why she is shown snow and states that in the text. she may arrive at that realization but she hasn't now, yet she does still try to befriend jon. the text does not support it being because of her visions but it does show her seducing him. we are given no other reason but making shadow babies.

What purpose would a shadow baby have at the wall though? Who is there that he/she has to be killed with shadow baby assasins? There really isn't anyone on the wall that is so well protected like Renly and Penrose were that Mel needs a shadow baby.

I suppose that Bran and Bloodraven are on Mel's hit list, but how much does she really know about them? Right now, a shadow baby would be completely out of left field at the wall. It doesn't make sense, really.

[The Red Melli]

again, at this point mel does not doubt that stannis is the aa. she does not understand why she is shown snow and states that in the text. she may arrive at that realization but she hasn't now, yet she does still try to befriend jon. the text does not support it being because of her visions but it does show her seducing him. we are given no other reason but making shadow babies.

She prays for a glimpse of AA and she sees only Snow.

And why are you thinking she needs Shadow Babies?

Her main goal is to find AA and defeat the Great Other not to make Shadow babies.

[Rooseman]

Agree with above post, feel Shireen being sacrificed will cause Davos to abandon Stannis's cause completely which seems to require a complete 180 regarding his character arc. What is the Onion Knight without loyatly?

Seems wherever Stannis ends up Davos will be by his side, this turn of events would leave Davos rudderless and he seems to much of an important character for that to be the case.

If Melisandre goes rogue on this, there's no reason why Davos would abandon Stannis. In fact, I think Stannis is almost done with the Red God. The only reason why he was with her in the first place, was becacause she convinced him of R'hllor's power.

Now, if something would convince him that the Old Gods have power too, I can see him switching sides (maybe he gives Theon to the Hearttree and something happens). Especially since it heavily increases his chances of winning over the Northmen. And if Melisandre sacrifices Shireen for Jon ("Sorry, I was wrong, you're not Azor Ahai after all. No hard feelings k? lol") I can see him getting pretty angry about this.

[jons nissa]

I don't agree with you. I think its pretty clear and I think the text supports it throughout. Stannis also can not be AA if he's dead or at least perceived to be dead. We aren't arguing what has already happened, we are speculating as to what happens next.

the text does not say she thinks stannis is dead and jon is the aa:

The red priestess closed her eyes and said a prayer, then opened them once more to face the hearthfire. One more time. She had to be certain. Many a priest and priestess before her had been brought down by false visions, by seeing what they wished to see instead of what the Lord of Light had sent. Stannis was marching south into peril, the king who carried the fate of the world upon his shoulders, Azor Ahai reborn. Surely R'hllor would vouchsafe her a glimpse of what awaited him. Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument.

Melisandre took that as a sign and dismissed her own guard as well. They crossed the yard together, just the two of them. The snow fell all around them. She walked as close to Jon Snow as she dared, close enough to feel the mistrust pouring off him like a black fog. He does not love me, will never love me, but he will make use of me. Well and good. Melisandre had danced the same dance with Stannis Baratheon, back in the beginning. In truth, the young lord commander and her king had more in common than either one would ever be willing to admit. Stannis had been a younger son living in the shadow of his elder brother, just as Jon Snow, bastard-born, had always been eclipsed by his trueborn sibling, the fallen hero men had called the Young Wolf. Both men were unbelievers by nature, mistrustful, suspicious. The only gods they truly worshiped were honor and duty.

these are her own thoughts. she does not doubt stannis and does not think he's dead. speculating that the red witch will not see the falseness of the pink letter is quite a stretch.

suffice to say, we are interpreting the text differently.

[Stannis Lives]

the text does not say she thinks stannis is dead and jon is the aa:

these are her own thoughts. she does not doubt stannis and does not think he's dead. speculating that the red witch will not see the falseness of the pink letter is quite a stretch.

suffice to say, we are interpreting the text differently.

Mel's POV is much earlier in the narrative. I think that's the point when she begins to doubt. We are definitely interpreting the text differently as I'm trying to read into the clues to interpret how it will unfold. Obviously there is nothing as of yet where Mel abandons stannis and goes all in with Jon. It is my belief that it has been hinted at and will be addressed in TWoW. That was the basis for the OP and is simply my theory based on my interpretation and my experience with the series.

[The Red Melli]

the text does not say she thinks stannis is dead and jon is the aa:

these are her own thoughts. she does not doubt stannis and does not think he's dead. speculating that the red witch will not see the falseness of the pink letter is quite a stretch.

suffice to say, we are interpreting the text differently.

"I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R’hllor shows me only Snow."

[The Red Melli]

I also think Melisandre's visions showed her Stannis to lead Mel to Jon Snow.

Only she misinterpreted the vision and actually thought Stannis was AA.

[Stannis Lives]

I also think Melisandre's visions showed her Stannis to lead Mel to Jon Snow.

Only she misinterpreted the vision and actually thought Stannis was AA.

Agreed

[jons nissa]

Obviously there is nothing as of yet where Mel abandons stannic and goes all in with Jon. It is my belief that it has been hinted at and will be addressed in TWoW.

where is it hinted at? when she sees she snow in the flames? how does she react to that vision:

Skulls. A thousand skulls, and the bastard boy again. Jon Snow. Whenever she was asked what she saw within her fires, Melisandre would answer, "Much and more," but seeing was never as simple as those words suggested. It was an art, and like all arts it demanded mastery, discipline, study. Pain. That too. R'hllor spoke to his chosen ones through blessed fire, in a language of ash and cinder and twisting flame that only a god could truly grasp. Melisandre had practiced her art for years beyond count, and she had paid the price. There was no one, even in her order, who had her skill at seeing the secrets half-revealed and half-concealed within the sacred flames. Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R' hllor shows me only Snow.

hardly seems like a hint of her future actions. it doesn't even show her doubting or questioning her position on stannis or jon. in fact, it's clear she has no idea why she is seeing what she sees. but, hey, i can understand wanting something to happen really badly.

ultimately i do believe she will understand what the flames are showing her and try to help jon because her true "king" is r'hollor and her service is to her god. but there is nothing to show she has left stannis at the end of the adwd. it will be interesting to see how that unfolds in the next 2 books and whether jon will want her on his team. especially if she does kill shireen. i don't think jon will not see innocent sacrifice as stannis did.

[Stannis Lives]

where is it hinted at? when she sees she snow in the flames? how does she react to that vision:

That's the entire purpose of the thread. Start on page 1. Ser Wun Wun had a great post as well.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Am I mistaken to think Mel wants to make shadow babies with Jon so she can send them after Bran and Bloodraven because she stupidly ( :P ) thinks that they're servants of the Great Other?

[The Red Melli]

Am I mistaken to think Mel wants to make shadow babies with Jon so she can send them after Bran and Bloodraven because she stupidly ( :P ) thinks that they're servants of the Great Other?

She assumes it but she's not sure.

Though I don't see that happen I think Melisandre will realise that the Others are actually The Great Other all together.

[Eric_20]

I think Mel will sacrifice Stannis in a desperate attempt, if she cant get Shireen and Edric Storm, it will be Stannis

[Badjokessoldhere]

How is this thread still going on? This is much too horrific of a thing to happen I'd say.The King's men and the Night's watch wouldn't let that happen near them.

How could the Stannis forces and to a lesser extent Selyse say, "Oh, our king is dead. Might as well kill his heir to revive some dude we didn't really like in the first place. What's that you say? He's actually Azor Ahai? Oh ok sure, you've never been wrong about this before!"