Why Sansa is a great character

[ARYa_Nym]

And we're not asking you to like Sansa. All we ask is that other readers not be dismissive of her simply because she is less outright in her defiance than Arya would have been.

Again, I don't understand why liking Arya and thinking she is a strong character entails thinking Sansa is a weak one and vice versa. You may identify more with Arya's way of thinking, but that doesn't diminish the value of Sansa's way of being.

I feel the same way when Sansa fans act like "feminine" strength is the only ones that matters. That Arya is lesser because she fights like a man/tries to fight men and that's something RL women could never do-I read this argument several times.

It actually wasn't until I encountered the asoiaf community that I read a fandom separating themselves in a feminine vs. warrior woman and arguing about which is better.

It goes back to what I first said. Why can't Sansa be defended without turning this into I appreciate the way Sansa has strength as opposed to Arya. Reasons for appreciating her could be expressed without bringing up Arya.

But since she has been brought up then it has my interest. I can say the reasons why I dislike her without directly comparing her to Arya. There are feminine characters in the series who I like. I just don't like Sansa. & none of them do I like just because they are feminine.

[Lala]

Think you should meet Mladen.

Every girl I've met even the ones who are like Arya in so many ways,Have a bit of Sansa in them,the ability to believe everything will be storybook,picture perfect by the end stuff.

Hell even I think like that sometimes,So in that way yes she is slightly relateable to both Male and Female fans,But I guess the Female fans have more to relate with.

But that doesn't mean I enjoy reading her chapters as much as I enjoy say Brans or Jaimes chapters.

The major reason I started finding her interesting is because of LF's entry into her life.

NO you may not relate to Sansa until you have put on a pink dress and pretended you were a pretty pretty princess :commie:

jk~

Arya vs. Sansa is a little like cats vs. dogs to me. Loving one doesn't mean not loving the other. Some like to make it mutually exclusive but I love all four.

I love little birds ;)

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

One thing that's endearing about Sansa is her hopeless crush on Loras. This kind of thing used to happen to me all the time. I would choose to lie to myself and misinterpret neutral behavior as mutual interest.

[Pikachu101]

Its a sign of GRRM's genius that ASOIAF is filled with enough well written characters that every reader can find someone with whom to identify.

:agree:

Sansa has got to be one of the most realistic characters in the series. People like to think they'd stand up for themselves or die instead of talking badly about their family, but in all honesty they'd be terrified. I think that's the key issue with Sansa's chapters, she's painfully realistic when readers want characters who aren't.

The reason why I love her so much is because she reminds me of Elizabeth I, especially when she was younger :)

[TheMysteriousOne]

In AGOT, I was ambivalent towards Sansa, I didn't hate her but I also didn't like her, she was just there. At that point, I liked Arya much more. My opinion on her gradually started to change from ACOK onwards until she became one of my favorite characters after I finished AFFC. I can't relate to her experiences and the problems she faces as result of her being a young woman (I'm a guy) but I find her to be a very compelling character.

Another reason that I like her is because in many ways, her story arc is similar to Dany's.

[Mark Antony]

You can add me to the list.

*lays down sword at Sansas feet*

[Elaena Targaryen]

Sansa is easily the most relatable female character. She grows up somewhat naïve and spoiled, but basically a normal girl who likes stories, songs and sweets (delicious, delicious lemoncakes).

Arya is one my favorites, but she is the kind of kid one only finds in fantasy tales, never in real life. Daenerys is a very interesting character but somewhat alien. She's an exiled princess, a silver haired and purple eyed beauty, and she has dragons. Again, a type of character found in fantasy but not reality.

Hmmm, I'm not an expert on the subject, and it does not effect whether or not Sansa is relatable, but I would think Sansa is the one you find in fantasy tales with the charcters like Arya and Daeny being a more modern device. Sansa is the princess in the tower from all of the old fairy tales, the beauty to the beast, the damsel in distress, the one who used to be so unrealistic and alien with no depth. Martin is already playing with those clichés with Sansa, and I'm intrigued by what else he will do.

[ARYa_Nym]

Hmmm, I'm not an expert on the subject, and it does not effect whether or not Sansa is relatable, but I would think Sansa is the one you find in fantasy tales with the charcters like Arya and Daeny being a more modern device. Sansa is the princess in the tower from all of the old fairy tales, the beauty to the beast, the damsel in distress, the one who used to be so unrealistic and alien with no depth. Martin is already playing with those clichés with Sansa, and I'm intrigued by what else he will do.

I love your new icon. :)

IA. As I said C.S. Lewis already did the feminine vs. tomboy heroine in his series. & this isn't fantasy but even the Greeks did that foil in Antigone so it's not a new concept.

Sansa's story may be depressing and darker but a lot of the original fairy tales were. In fact they were worse. One of them that is now popular thanks to Disney the heroine was raped. I think Sleeping Beauty.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

I love your new icon. :)

IA. As I said C.S. Lewis already did the feminine vs. tomboy heroine in his series. & this isn't fantasy but even the Greeks did that foil in Antigone so it's not a new concept.

Sansa's story may be depressing and darker but a lot of the original fairy tales were. In fact they were worse. One of them that is now popular thanks to Disney the heroine was raped. I think Sleeping Beauty.

It was sleeping beauty. I think she got pregnant so the prince married her. Then the mother in law tried to get her killed. There are some versions of Snow White in which she is only seven years old. :bawl: :stillsick: :frown5:

Anyways, I don't see Sansa and Arya as damsel vs. tomboy. Or at least those tropes are being subverted. Sansa's arc is pointing to her saving herself and orchestrating Littlefinger's downfall. There isn't enough evidence of this to say for sure, but I think part of Arya's training will involve learning social skills and gaining more self control.

[Elaena Targaryen]

I love your new icon. :)

I knew you would. :) I got bored with Daenerys and the dragons and it took me forever to find one I liked with Arya and Nymeria

IA. As I said C.S. Lewis already did the feminine vs. tomboy heroine in his series. & this isn't fantasy but even the Greeks did that foil in Antigone so it's not a new concept.

Sansa's story may be depressing and darker but a lot of the original fairy tales were. In fact they were worse. One of them that is now popular thanks to Disney the heroine was raped. I think Sleeping Beauty.

I thought so but I feel better about my post now because I know you have more knowledge on this subject than I do. ty

[ARYa_Nym]

It was sleeping beauty. I think she got pregnant so the prince married her. Then the mother in law tried to get her killed. There are some versions of Snow White in which she is only seven years old. :bawl: :stillsick: :frown5:

Anyways, I don't see Sansa and Arya as damsel vs. tomboy. Or at least those tropes are being subverted. Sansa's arc is pointing to her saving herself and orchestrating Littlefinger's downfall. There isn't enough evidence of this to say for sure, but I think part of Arya's training will involve learning social skills and gaining more self control.

Thanks.

Refreshing my memory it's the prince that rapes her. So Joffrey's not the only prince who turned out to be a monster.

They are foils to each other. I don't feel like looking for them but there are 2 different SSMs. Their names are meant to show how opposite they are to each other. In another he said that Sansa was created as a foil to Arya. There are other fantasy series where that very thing was done.

I knew you would. :) I got bored with Daenerys and the dragons and it took me forever to find one I liked with Arya and Nymeria

I thought so but I feel better about my post now because I know you have more knowledge on this subject than I do. ty

I love all your icons. This one especially though.

I'm not certain I do but thanks. I'm no expert on fantasy but I've read a few different series. & I did read C.S. Lewis as a child.

[bloodofwinterfell]

I've said why I like Sansa before, but besides that, I think she is one of GRRM's best written characters. She is one of the more subtle characters in the series - you really start to pick things up when you look closely. I know a lot of people complain about Sansa's idealism and naivete but I actually like it. The series is depressing enough as it is, I enjoy reading about a character who isn't as jaded as the rest and is willing to look for the good in people. Her snow Winterfell scene was one of my favorites for this very reason; after grieving over the RW the rest of the book it was so nice to be able to read a scene that's so full of hope.

Hmmm, I'm not an expert on the subject, and it does not effect whether or not Sansa is relatable, but I would think Sansa is the one you find in fantasy tales with the charcters like Arya and Daeny being a more modern device. Sansa is the princess in the tower from all of the old fairy tales, the beauty to the beast, the damsel in distress, the one who used to be so unrealistic and alien with no depth. Martin is already playing with those clichés with Sansa, and I'm intrigued by what else he will do.

I think some people (I myself have said something like this as well) mean that Sansa is unique in modern fiction. Writers have been more willing to write "strong female characters," but this often simply means a woman with more masculine personality traits - not that there's anything wrong with that obviously. More traditionally feminine characters, on the other hand, are seen as weak in comparison and are provided with little to no depth; they're basically objects meant to contrast other characters and/or further their own story (see the Women in the Refrigerator trope). I find it refreshing that Martin makes Sansa a major POV character and spends so much time showing how she grows over the series.

[ForTheNightIsDarkAndTyrion]

You can blame Sansa for her evil characteristics, superiority complex and annoying face.

She was taught by the most evil woman/person in Westeros after all...

HINT: It's Lord Catelyn

[sansa's sworn sword]

:agree:

Sansa has got to be one of the most realistic characters in the series. People like to think they'd stand up for themselves or die instead of talking badly about their family, but in all honesty they'd be terrified. I think that's the key issue with Sansa's chapters, she's painfully realistic when readers want characters who aren't.

The reason why I love her so much is because she reminds me of Elizabeth I, especially when she was younger :)

:agree:

[ARYa_Nym]

There are modern main characters in fantasy who are feminine especially if it's one of those fantasy/romance series. You can find plenty of those in the YA section.

The series' or characters just aren't as popular as a character like say Katniss from Hunger Games.

[Silverscream]

I don't think you can blame people not getting Sansa because her characterization and arc are too nuanced or subtle. From what I've seen, it's the opposite, a lot of her fans seem to like her because they find her realistic and relatable. I don't think there's much about Sansa that's all that original or makes her hard to be understood.

Personally, while Sansa began as one of my favorites, I don't find anything about her any different from most of the other characters, even her brand of femininity isn't all that special. Though I'm glad we're getting to a point where feminine characters aren't demonized, it shouldn't get to the point where tomboyish characters get the short stick. People in this thread talk about her kindness and idealism as if these traits are unique only to her, but even Arya continued to be compassionate when she started killing and basically every character began idealistic and believing in the goodness of knights - Arya, Bran, Jaime, Sandor, etc.

And I don't want to turn this into a blaming the victim situation but I feel that there was always something Sansa could have done, though it doesn't mean she had should have done it. But Sansa doesn't even try to think up possibilities to get herself out of King's Landing. I don't want to keep going back to Arya, but she was in a situation just as bad (maybe even worse - Sansa got away with mouthing off to Joffrey, if Arya did that to Weese, Gregor, or Tywin, she'd be dead) yet still thinks of going to Lord Cerwyn or lying to the stableboys and getting a horse. Even if it ended up getting her killed, the point is that she thought of doing something.

[lifefullofwords]

As I said C.S. Lewis already did the feminine vs. tomboy heroine in his series. & this isn't fantasy but even the Greeks did that foil in Antigone so it's not a new concept.

Ismene, Susan Pevensie, and Sansa Stark may all be foils to their rebellious younger sisters but that doesn't mean they're the exact same character. Both Ismene and Susan actually do a really good job embodying the dynamic GRRM subverts with Arya and Sansa. Ismene is really only there to be a foil to Antigone. Susan's purpose as a character isn't limited to being a foil for Lucy but unfortunately she's neither interesting nor well-drawn.

ASoIaF is disrupts the typical rebellious younger sister/conventional older sister dynamic in a number of ways. First of all, although Sansa and Arya are foils for each other, neither character is favored by the narrative (as Antigone and Lucy both clearly are. And Sansa's femininity doesn't make her weak or dull (as, again, is the case with our other examples). Even Sansa's passivity is in its own way effective (i.e. it keeps her alive in KL).

Basically, the difference between Sansa and characters like Susan and Ismene is that her femininity and passivity are strengths, not weaknesses and that she's a very well-developed character and not just there to make her feisty younger sister look good.

Sansa's story may be depressing and darker but a lot of the original fairy tales were. In fact they were worse. One of them that is now popular thanks to Disney the heroine was raped. I think Sleeping Beauty.

Sansa's story being depressing is not what makes it original, we agree there.

[ARYa_Nym]

Ismene, Susan Pevensie, and Sansa Stark may all be foils to their rebellious younger sisters but that doesn't mean they're the exact same character. Both Ismene and Susan actually do a really good job embodying the dynamic GRRM subverts with Arya and Sansa. Ismene is really only there to be a foil to Antigone. Susan's purpose as a character isn't limited to being a foil for Lucy but unfortunately she's neither interesting nor well-drawn.

ASoIaF is disrupts the typical rebellious younger sister/conventional older sister dynamic in a number of ways. First of all, although Sansa and Arya are foils for each other, neither character is favored by the narrative (as Antigone and Lucy both clearly are. And Sansa's femininity doesn't make her weak or dull (as, again, is the case with our other examples). Even Sansa's passivity is in its own way effective (i.e. it keeps her alive in KL).

Basically, the difference between Sansa and characters like Susan and Ismene is that her femininity and passivity are strengths, not weaknesses and that she's a very well-developed character and not just there to make her feisty younger sister look good.

No two characters are exactly the same. Arya isn't exactly like the girl from Kickass for example but one can agree that they are from the same trope.

It would be plagiarism if Sansa was exactly like Susan and Arya was exactly like Lucy. Even within his own series GRRM has done the foils more than once but it's only expanded in the SSMs regarding Daena, Rhaena, and Elaena.

Being a feminine character in a fantasy series or having feminine aspects is not new. I would rather see Vin from Mistborn as more fresh because she combines and accepts the two (fights physically and with magic yet is feminine) eventually.

As for strengths that was a critique of Susan but she still had her own strengths. Ismene I don't think she was regarded as less because she was feminine. Antigone's actions and disposition have more negative consequences.

Ismene serves as the compassionate but rational and prudent counterpart to Antigone's headstrong style of decision-making with no regard for consequence. While Antigone resolves to honor her brother at all costs, Ismene laments that while she too loves her brother, her disposition does not allow her to defy the state and become an outlaw. Once Antigone was caught, in spite of her betrothal to his son Haemon, Creon decreed that she was to be buried alive. Ismene then declared she had aided Antigone and wanted the same fate, though she did not participate in the crime. Antigone refused to let her be martyred for a cause she did not stand up for. She even seems to forget her sister exists, calling herself the 'last descendant of Oedipus.'^{[citation needed]}

Thus, it is apparent that Ismene serves as a foil for Antigone; she is the “compliant citizen” to her sister’s “conscientious objector.”^[1] While she is loyal and willing to die at her sister’s side, she does not make the same bold, defiant stand that Antigone does. Like Haemon, she is a reasonable, sympathetic person whose fate is tied to the far more fanatical Antigone and Creon.^[1]

Those are just 2 examples of the use of a tomboy and a feminine character being used as comparisons in literature. As for feminine characters in fantasy you can find them as I said but mainly in YA fantasy/romance like off the top of my head Tessa from The Infernal Diaries who I happen to dislike but it may be more on the author.

[lifefullofwords]

As for strengths that was a critique of Susan but she still had her own strengths. Ismene I don't think she was regarded as less because she was feminine. Antigone's actions and disposition have more negative consequences.

This forum is for discussing ASoIaF and not Antigone and the Chronicles of Narnia but I'm going to respond to this briefly nonetheless. Antigone's actions having such dramatically terrible consequences is what makes her the tragic heroine of the story. Just because things turned out badly doesn't mean she's not the star. And Susan doesn't get to go to Narnia forever with the rest of the kids at the end of the series so while she may have had her own strengths she was clearly not the equal of the other Pevensie siblings (at least not in C.S. Lewis' mind).

However, all of that is beside the point. You never responded to my actual argument: that Sansa isn't yet another iteration of a character type that's been done to death but rather a subversion of that very character type.

[ARYa_Nym]

This forum is for discussing ASoIaF and not Antigone and the Chronicles of Narnia but I'm going to respond to this briefly nonetheless. Antigone's actions having such dramatically terrible consequences is what makes her the tragic heroine of the story. Just because things turned out badly doesn't mean she's not the star. And Susan doesn't get to go to Narnia forever with the rest of the kids at the end of the series so while she may have had her own strengths she was clearly not the equal of the other Pevensie siblings (at least not in C.S. Lewis' mind).

However, all of that is beside the point. You never responded to my actual argument: that Sansa isn't yet another iteration of a character type that's been done to death but rather a subversion of that very character type.

Just because she's the star doesn't mean that she is meant to be seen in a better light than Ismene. She is responsible for her own death as well as the deaths of others. Ismene is a more sympathetic character despite not being the star. She wouldn't be anyways since it's called Antigone.

I mentioned that it was a critique of C.S. Lewis but anyways there are many feminine characters where their femininity is not a hindrance. The point is that having one sister being feminine while the other isn't is not new.

I did answer your point. She can't be exactly the same because that's plagiarism. However, as said there are tons of things about her that I can find in fantasy and other genres especially her being the beauty to the beast as Elaena mentioned. I wish that trope would die already but it won't.