Maybe Rhaegar was obsessed with Lyanna?

[Ygrain]

yeah because that happened on its own.

lyanna gets kidnapped > brandon gets himself imprisoned > rickard go to court and the mad kill has him burned alive.

"Brandon gets himself imprisoned" is in no way a logical outcome of "Lyanna gets kidnapped" (if it was a kidnap).

[TorCub Tormundson]

knowing brandon and aerys and the fact that he believed that his sister was abducted by the ass with the platinum hair.

[Ygrain]

knowing brandon it is.

Please.

How plausible it is to expect a hothead to get to blows when you abscond with his sister? Quite a lot but still not necessarily so.

How plausible it is to expect a hothead to get to blows when you abscond with his sister and cannot be found? Not at all because you're not there.

This is what makes the difference: Brandon came to KL yelling for Rhaegar to come out and die, even though Rhaegar wasn't there at all. It was either a totally new level of stupid, not to check if the person whom you want to challenge is at home at all, or the result of misinformation fed by someone who wished to fan the potential conflict. Personally, I'd go for the latter, as I don't think that hothead = automatically stupid, not to mention that Brandon had several days to chill out at least a bit before he got to KL, as well as a bunch of friends with him, out of whom no-one apparently thought to check, either. So far, stupidity hasn't been proven to be contagious, so at least one of them should have come up with the idea that it's kinda weird for Rhaegar to take a kidnapped victim to the house where his parents, wife and children live, when he had a whole private island fortress just over the bay where he could hole up.

[Mariagoner]

How plausible it is to expect a hothead to get to blows when you abscond with his sister? Quite a lot but still not necessarily so.

How plausible it is to expect a hothead to get to blows when you abscond with his sister and cannot be found? Not at all because you're not there.

And how plausible is it for the hot-head (who's never been a noted intellect either, btw -- Brandon always struck me as the 'act now, think later' type) to do something so hasty as to set Crazy King Aerys off?

Very, very plausible, insofar as it was what in fact occurred. And if it weren't Brandon who did something to set Crazy King Aerys off, it would likely have been Robert Baratheon or Oberyn Martell -- given that they were also passionate, not-terribly-brilliant hot-heads who swung first and asked questions later. Do you honestly think these guys would have just shrugged their shoulders and given up just because they didn't know exactly where Rhaegar was? No -- they would have gone to Rhaegar's crazy father in an attempt to get information!

If Rhaegar thought his mysterious disappearing act would help at all, he was severely mistaken. As we've seen, that would only lead people to assume that Aerys knew where Rhaegar was and go to Aerys -- leading to a quick, horrible death and war being called. After all, why wouldn't they believe Aerys knew where his fool son was and could direct them to his secret love shack? Who would believe that the Crown Prince of Westeros -- supposedly one of the most honorable, intelligent men around -- would just leave without letting his own family know of his plans?

If Rhaegar actually thought leaving without a word would calm anyone's temper down or cause them to just give up on their frantic hunt for him, he was mistaken. (And being severely stupid, but that goes without saying.) In fact, he miscalculated in every single move he made in Lyanna's 'abduction' and he got thousands of relatively innocent people killed.

If that's not screwing up on a grand scale, what is?

[TorCub Tormundson]

now maybe im an idiot but if some dude kidnaps one of my sisters i'd become a tornado of murderous rage and bad decisions and i'm a fairly easy going dude, but when something like that happens you go batshit and brandon had a knack for acting without thinking.

[Ygrain]

Everyone makes a bad decision now and then but Brandon doesn't merely make a bad decision. he makes an unexplicable one (and as I said, he had several companions with him, how come that they all displayed the same fault of thinking?), in which, on top of it, he doesn't even enquire about Lyanna at all. - Which, I hope, would be your primary concern if you thought your sister was kidnapped - to get her safely out first and deal with the bastard later. Do you think you would really walk into the middle of the guy's base where he has tens of henchmen at his call and want to kill him while they are holding your sister and might harm her if you harm him? Forgive me for saying so from the female perspective, but this is simply inexcusable. "Release my sister at once!" would be the right thing to say.

[Mariagoner]

Corbon, I admire your arguments but I do not agree with them. Principally, you seem to be saying that Aerys was a relatively quietly insane man whose sudden pyromaniac kill-them-all tendencies could not possibly be expected. In fact, I would argue that any reasonably intelligent person would realize that Aerys was slipping off the cliff of relatively sanity and already plunging towards the river of screaming madness full-tilt.

From this site's Wiki: http://awoiaf.wester...ys_II_Targaryen

The Defiance of Duskendale marked the beginning of Aerys' descent into madness. Deeply shaken by his imprisonment, he refused to leave the Red Keep for many years afterward. His jealous and suspicious nature deepened into paranoia and eventually outright delusions, seeing evidence of treachery everywhere. The king no longer trusted his wife or his heir, and especially not his Hand, all of whom he perceived as having gladly abandoned him to rot away in Duskendale. Hearing word of Varys' talents as an information broker from across the Narrow Sea, he appointed the eunuch his Master of Whispers, believing that only a foreigner with no competing loyalties in Westeros could be trusted to alert him of potential threats. Aerys grew brutal, capricious and increasingly fascinated with fire, especially the highly flammable substance known as wildfire. Aerys began to use wildfire for executing alleged traitors. The procedures aroused him and, while he and his wife had slept in separate chambers for some years and avoided each other by day as well, Aerys would always claim his marriage rights after such an execution by fire, brutally abusing his wife in bed.^[1]

And this was years before any of the trouble with Lyanna had ever started. In short, this was not some guy who was cheerfully living his life, only slightly twitching every once in a while. This was a man who was unstable, abusing his wife, killing people horribly with wildfire, and causing even loyal Barristan Selmy to wonder if he should have let Aerys die years before, in the Defiance of Duskendale incident.

If Rhaegar honestly didn't realize his father was mad enough to do something hasty and horrific out of delusional paranoia in a terribly unstable, frightening political shit-storm, I... I just... I...

I mean... seriously. What did Rhaegar think would happen? Crazy Paranoid Fire Daddy would somehow turn into a cheerful, patient, calm diplomat and urge the frightened family and fiancee of Lyanna (and the angry family of Elia) to sit back, relax, and wait for Rhaegar to stop ravaging and come back home?

In what universe would Aerys be capable of that level of calm diplomacy?

[Mariagoner]

But here's the thing. Aerys is in charge. Period. No bullshit about "Rhaegar leaving Aerys in charge" while he disappeared. Aerys was in charge, and Rhaegar had no part in the government and no power against his father. Thats it. Period.

And this is what I disagree with the most. Aerys was a complete and utter nut-case. Rhaegar knew it -- he wanted to remove his father from power at some point, even before Aerys died. But stupidly enough, he let Aerys live and fled with Lyanna without apparently realizing that his crazy father would end up doing something horrific (like, say, kill Brandon Stark, Lord Stark, and declare war on the Starks and Baratheons) during a time of great political distress. Which... yeah. Is stupid and short-sighted as hell. You'd never see Tywin Lannister or Little Finger or Oleanna Tyrell do something that stupid in their plots, would you? Rhaegar was a political naif and he paid for it with his life and family.

Maybe it shouldn't be Rhaegar's responsibility to baby-sit his father -- but if he's going to be king, he has to put the good of the kingdom ahead of his own desires. And if that means he makes sure his crazy mentally ill father isn't in the position to kill important people and create a civil war -- well, that's what he has to do. Otherwise, Rhaegar should have abdicated from his position as crown prince responsibly, not abandoned his family and run off with a teenage girl because he was too much of a wimp to deal with the pressure.

Ultimately, Rhaegar's poor decisions lead many, many people to a horrible death. And even if plenty of other people were also fucked up (hey Brandon, hey Aerys), Rhaegar was the one who got the ball rolling in the most irresponsible way.

[Mariagoner]

Everyone makes a bad decision now and then but Brandon doesn't merely make a bad decision. he makes an unexplicable one (and as I said, he had several companions with him, how come that they all displayed the same fault of thinking?), in which, on top of it, he doesn't even enquire about Lyanna at all. - Which, I hope, would be your primary concern if you thought your sister was kidnapped - to get her safely out first and deal with the bastard later. Do you think you would really walk into the middle of the guy's base where he has tens of henchmen at his call and want to kill him while they are holding your sister and might harm her if you harm him? Forgive me for saying so from the female perspective, but this is simply inexcusable. "Release my sister at once!" would be the right thing to say.

Brandon actually acted exactly as I thought he would have acted. He's a hot-headed young man who clearly loves his family, holds his honor highly, is involved in rash endeavors constantly (duel with Littlefinger, anyone?) and acts before he can think. He (and Robert and Oberyn) is exactly the kind of person who would run screaming to Rhaegar's most likely location (hell, why not his father's place?) and demand that he allow Brandon to carve his anger out on Rhaegar's hide.

Reasonably speaking, what else do you expected a "wolf-blooded" man like Brandon to do? If I were making plans where he was involved, I'd assume he would do something stupid in a very politically difficult situation! He's exactly that type of person!

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I come to believe that Rhaegar somehow thought everyone -- from Crazy Daddy to the various Starks, Baratheons and Martells involved -- would simply be happy to sit back and wait for him to pop his head back up after he got done plowing Lyanna for a couple of months. Which... dear god, suggests that Rhaegar had little to no insight on basic human nature or the people around him at all.

[Jory Cassel]

And how plausible is it for the hot-head (who's never been a noted intellect either, btw -- Brandon always struck me as the 'act now, think later' type) to do something so hasty as to set Crazy King Aerys off?

Very, very plausible, insofar as it was what in fact occurred. And if it weren't Brandon who did something to set Crazy King Aerys off, it would likely have been Robert Baratheon or Oberyn Martell -- given that they were also passionate, not-terribly-brilliant hot-heads who swung first and asked questions later. Do you honestly think these guys would have just shrugged their shoulders and given up just because they didn't know exactly where Rhaegar was? No -- they would have gone to Rhaegar's crazy father in an attempt to get information!

If Rhaegar thought his mysterious disappearing act would help at all, he was severely mistaken. As we've seen, that would only lead people to assume that Aerys knew where Rhaegar was and go to Aerys -- leading to a quick, horrible death and war being called. After all, why wouldn't they believe Aerys knew where his fool son was and could direct them to his secret love shack? Who would believe that the Crown Prince of Westeros -- supposedly one of the most honorable, intelligent men around -- would just leave without letting his own family know of his plans?

If Rhaegar actually thought leaving without a word would calm anyone's temper down or cause them to just give up on their frantic hunt for him, he was mistaken. (And being severely stupid, but that goes without saying.) In fact, he miscalculated in every single move he made in Lyanna's 'abduction' and he got thousands of relatively innocent people killed.

If that's not screwing up on a grand scale, what is?

Ignoring your first assumption that Oberyn and/or Robert would've done something to upset Aerys for the sake of the argument here, Brandon did not look for information, he did not state his wish to get his sister back - he simply strode up to the Red Keep and demanded the death of the Crown Prince.

There's no basis for claiming that negotiating or demanding information would've upset Aerys in the way that Brandon's action did.

Textual basis for the third paragraph please. How do you conclude that Brandon thought that Aerys had explicit knowledge concerning Rhaegar's whereabouts?

Corbon, I admire your arguments but I do not agree with them. Principally, you seem to be saying that Aerys was a relatively quietly insane man whose sudden pyromaniac kill-them-all tendencies could not possibly be expected. In fact, I would argue that any reasonably intelligent person would realize that Aerys was slipping off the cliff of relatively sanity and already plunging towards the river of screaming madness full-tilt.

From this site's Wiki: http://awoiaf.wester...ys_II_Targaryen

And this was years before any of the trouble with Lyanna had ever started. In short, this was not some guy who was cheerfully living his life, only slightly twitching every once in a while. This was a man who was unstable, abusing his wife, killing people horribly with wildfire, and causing even loyal Barristan Selmy to wonder if he should have let Aerys die years before, in the Defiance of Duskendale incident.

And this is what I disagree with the most. Aerys was a complete and utter nut-case. Rhaegar knew it -- he wanted to remove his father from power at some point, even before Aerys died. But stupidly enough, he let Aerys live and fled with Lyanna without apparently realizing that his crazy father would end up doing something horrific (like, say, kill Brandon Stark, Lord Stark, and declare war on the Starks and Baratheons) during a time of great political distress. Which... yeah. Is stupid and short-sighted as hell. You'd never see Tywin Lannister or Little Finger or Oleanna Tyrell do something that stupid in their plots, would you? Rhaegar was a political naif and he paid for it with his life and family.

Maybe it shouldn't be Rhaegar's responsibility to baby-sit his father -- but if he's going to be king, he has to put the good of the kingdom ahead of his own desires. And if that means he makes sure his crazy mentally ill father isn't in the position to kill important people and create a civil war -- well, that's what he has to do. Otherwise, Rhaegar should have abdicated from his position as crown prince responsibly, not abandoned his family and run off with a teenage girl because he was too much of a wimp to deal with the pressure.

Ultimately, Rhaegar's poor decisions lead many, many people to a horrible death. And even if plenty of other people were also fucked up (hey Brandon, hey Aerys), Rhaegar was the one who got the ball rolling in the most irresponsible way.

You quote the wiki, and the part you quoted does not provide a reliable timeline, therefore your statement that this "was years before any of the trouble with Lyanna had ever started" is invalid, quotes from the books, please.

And yes, Barristan wonders because of what happened during the Rebellion, justified, if I might add.

And again, proof please that Aerys was severely mad before the Rebellion. He was paranoid, yes, and he had a ragged appearance and the nickname King Scab, but that's not proof that he displayed the same madness as during the Rebellion before Brandon's appearance and the Rebellion.

And he did not declare war on Baratheon and Stark, his actions led to Jon Arryn rebelling - accuracy please.

And who could guess that a civil war broke out? Again, in order to make a plausible argument that it was like this, you have to proof that his madness before the Rebellion was in a state that allowed Rhaegar to conclude this.

Eta:

Brandon actually acted exactly as I thought he would have acted. He's a hot-headed young man who clearly loves his family, holds his honor highly, is involved in rash endeavors constantly (duel with Littlefinger, anyone?) and acts before he can think. He (and Robert and Oberyn) is exactly the kind of person who would run screaming to Rhaegar's most likely location (hell, why not his father's place?) and demand that he allow Brandon to carve his anger out on Rhaegar's hide.

Reasonably speaking, what else do you expected a "wolf-blooded" man like Brandon to do? If I were making plans where he was involved, I'd assume he would do something stupid in a very politically difficult situation! He's exactly that type of person!

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I come to believe that Rhaegar somehow thought everyone -- from Crazy Daddy to the various Starks, Baratheons and Martells involved -- would simply be happy to sit back and wait for him to pop his head back up after he got done plowing Lyanna for a couple of months. Which... dear god, suggests that Rhaegar had little to no insight on basic human nature or the people around him at all.

Littlefinger challenged him, not the other way around.

And as Ygrain pointed out, he had several days to think during the ride from RR to KL, +companions who could've shown him where he erred.

As pointed out before, what Brandon did was not only reckless an unreflecting - mildly put - but completely insane. He spoke death threats against the crown prince in front of the royal stronghold.

And the last paragraph is purely speculation because of personal resentment, it seems.

[Mariagoner]

And who could guess that a civil war broke out? Again, in order to make a plausible argument that it was like this, you have to proof that his madness before the Rebellion was in a state that allowed Rhaegar to conclude this.

Do you have proof at that any point after the Defiance at Duskdale, Aerys was somehow mentally competant?

But okay, if you want to see evidence that Aerys was dangerously mad, here are a few things I found just in A Storm of Swords:

(Stannis to Davos about what he wants to do when he is king:) I mean to scour that court clean. As Robert should have done, after the Trident. Ser Barristan once told me that the rot in King Aerys’s reign began with Varys. The eunuch should never have been pardoned. No more than the Kingslayer.

And Viserys had become part of the court after the Defiance of Duskdale, spying on behalf of an increasingly a paranoid Aerys.

(Jaime on Aerys' bloodlust:) ““After dancing griffins lost the Battle of the Bells, Aerys exiled him.” Why am I telling this absurd ugly child? “He had finally realized that Robert was no mere outlaw lord to be crushed at whim, but the greatest threat House Targaryen had faced since Daemon Blackfyre. The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins’ men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father. But no raven returned from Casterly Rock, and that made the king even more afraid. He saw traitors everywhere, and Varys was always there to point out any he might have missed. So His Grace commanded his alchemists to place caches of wildfire all over King’s Landing. Beneath Baelor’s Sept and the hovels of Flea Bottom, under stables and storehouses, at all seven gates, even in the cellars of the Red Keep itself.”

More proof that Varys was making Aerys increasingly paranoid.

That was the first time that Jaime understood. It was not his skill with sword and lance that had won him his white cloak, nor any feats of valor he’d performed against the Kingswood Brotherhood. Aerys had chosen him to spite his father, to rob Lord Tywin of his heir.

Aerys had long been increasingly paranoid and not afraid of pissing powerful nobles off simply to make a point -- hardly politic behavior.

Lord Tywin ignored that; it was Joffrey he addressed. “Aerys also felt the need to remind men that he was king. And he was passing fond of ripping tongues out as well. You could ask Ser Ilyn Payne about that, though you’ll get no reply.”

“Ser Ilyn never dared provoke Aerys the way your Imp provokes Joff,” said Cersei.

Aerys had long been cruel and easily resorted to torturing men.

I'll search the other books if this doesn't suffice but if there's any evidence against the idea that Aerys had long been a paranoid, torturous, insane wreck after Duskendale, I'd like to see it.

[Jory Cassel]

Quote

And who could guess that a civil war broke out? Again, in order to make a plausible argument that it was like this, you have to proof that his madness before the Rebellion was in a state that allowed Rhaegar to conclude this.

1 Do you have proof at that any point after the Defiance at Duskdale, Aerys was somehow mentally competant?

But okay, if you want to see evidence that Aerys was dangerously mad, here are a few things I found just in A Storm of Swords:

2 Quote

(Stannis to Davos about what he wants to do when he is king:) I mean to scour that court clean. As Robert should have done, after the Trident. Ser Barristan once told me that the rot in King Aerys’s reign began with Varys. The eunuch should never have been pardoned. No more than the Kingslayer.

3 And Viserys had become part of the court after the Defiance of Duskdale, spying on behalf of an increasingly a paranoid Aerys.

4 Quote

(Jaime on Aerys' bloodlust:) ““After dancing griffins lost the Battle of the Bells, Aerys exiled him.” Why am I telling this absurd ugly child? “He had finally realized that Robert was no mere outlaw lord to be crushed at whim, but the greatest threat House Targaryen had faced since Daemon Blackfyre. The king reminded Lewyn Martell gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of the ten thousand Dornishmen coming up the kingsroad. Jon Darry and Barristan Selmy rode to Stoney Sept to rally what they could of griffins’ men, and Prince Rhaegar returned from the south and persuaded his father to swallow his pride and summon my father. But no raven returned from Casterly Rock, and that made the king even more afraid. He saw traitors everywhere, and Varys was always there to point out any he might have missed. So His Grace commanded his alchemists to place caches of wildfire all over King’s Landing. Beneath Baelor’s Sept and the hovels of Flea Bottom, under stables and storehouses, at all seven gates, even in the cellars of the Red Keep itself.”

More proof that Varys was making Aerys increasingly paranoid.

5 Quote

That was the first time that Jaime understood. It was not his skill with sword and lance that had won him his white cloak, nor any feats of valor he’d performed against the Kingswood Brotherhood. Aerys had chosen him to spite his father, to rob Lord Tywin of his heir.

Aerys had long been increasingly paranoid and not afraid of pissing powerful nobles off simply to make a point -- hardly politic behavior.

6 Quote

Lord Tywin ignored that; it was Joffrey he addressed. “Aerys also felt the need to remind men that he was king. And he was passing fond of ripping tongues out as well. You could ask Ser Ilyn Payne about that, though you’ll get no reply.”

“Ser Ilyn never dared provoke Aerys the way your Imp provokes Joff,” said Cersei.

Aerys had long been cruel and easily resorted to torturing men.

I'll search the other books if this doesn't suffice but if there's any evidence against the idea that Aerys had long been a paranoid, torturous, insane wreck after Duskendale, I'd like to see it.

1 If you claim he was as unstable as during the rebellion already then you have to prove it, not the other way around.

2 Yes, Aerys became increasingly paranoid after the defiance of Duskendale, I did not doubt this. This is not proof that he displayed the same madness as during the Rebellion, though.

3 I suppose you mean Varys, yes?

4 This quote shows Aerys behaviour during the Rebellion, not before. The point you are trying to prove (as corbon and I argued against it) is that he already displayed that kind of behaviour before the Rebellion, so this quote does not have any value in this regard.

5 Yes, he used his power to get Jaime close to him to ensure Tywin's loyalty, besides showing his paranoia, funnily enough he was not so wrong to doubt Tywin's loyalty. Again, this does not prove that he already displayed the same amount of madness like during the Rebellion in advance to the Rebellion.

6 He severely punished a subordinate of his Hand for insolence, displaying unnecessarily harsh measures, he did nothing to Tywin or to any other Lord, though, he did not burn anyone and he did not put anyone to death.

I never doubted that Aerys was paranoid and that his paranoia was progressing, please point out where I did.

Until now, you have failed to bring up one single quote that decidedly shows that the displayed the same amount of madness before the Rebellion as during the Rebellion, because that is exactly what you claimed (eta: in order to conclude that Rhaegar would've been able to anticipate Aerys' behaviour):

What did it matter when King Crazy got his nickname? He'd been unstable for years since the Defiance of Duskdale and had been incredibly paranoid about his enemies, going to the point of having Varys spy on his own son in fear of Rhaegar overthrowing him. And he'd been burning people to death for years, and assaulting his poor wife afterwards. (Which... yeah, not a sign of sterling mental health. And I'm not even going into his nasty-ass floor-dragging finger-nails. I sincerely hope he had a groom to give his backside a wash once in a while. Otherwise, urgh, like I didn't have enough reason to pity his wife!)

If Rhaegar thought his mysterious disappearing act would help at all, he was severely mistaken. As we've seen, that would only lead people to assume that Aerys knew where Rhaegar was and go to Aerys -- leading to a quick, horrible death and war being called. After all, why wouldn't they believe Aerys knew where his fool son was and could direct them to his secret love shack? Who would believe that the Crown Prince of Westeros -- supposedly one of the most honorable, intelligent men around -- would just leave without letting his own family know of his plans?

And this was years before any of the trouble with Lyanna had ever started. In short, this was not some guy who was cheerfully living his life, only slightly twitching every once in a while. This was a man who was unstable, abusing his wife, killing people horribly with wildfire, and causing even loyal Barristan Selmy to wonder if he should have let Aerys die years before, in the Defiance of Duskendale incident.

If Rhaegar honestly didn't realize his father was mad enough to do something hasty and horrific out of delusional paranoia in a terribly unstable, frightening political shit-storm, I... I just... I...

I mean... seriously. What did Rhaegar think would happen? Crazy Paranoid Fire Daddy would somehow turn into a cheerful, patient, calm diplomat and urge the frightened family and fiancee of Lyanna (and the angry family of Elia) to sit back, relax, and wait for Rhaegar to stop ravaging and come back home?

Please feel free to bring one quote that shows precisely that Aerys was already burning Lord Paramounts/Nobles with no trial or something similar (eta2: not to forget demanding the heads of young lords), effectively displaying the same amount of madness as during the Rebellion, and I'll be happy to accept it.

[Pikachu101]

I'm seriously judging anyone who thinks Brandon's actions were stupid but Rhaegar and Lyanna's are justifiable <_<

[TorCub Tormundson]

I'm seriously judging anyone who thinks Brandon's actions were stupid but Rhaegar and Lyanna's are justifiable <_<

Brandon's actions were stupid even if entirely justified and expected. Rhaegar's actions were just as dumb if not more.

[Pikachu101]

Brandon's actions were stupid even if entirely justified and expected. Rhaegar's actions were just as dumb if not more.

I'm not going to hold Brandon's actions against him, what he did was totally understandable. Rhaegar's on the other hand wasn't, he just runs off with a lord's daughter and it doesn't even occur to him that her family might not be ok with it.

[Nami]

I'm not going to hold Brandon's actions against him, what he did was totally understandable. Rhaegar's on the other hand wasn't, he just runs off with a lord's daughter and it doesn't even occur to him that her family might not be ok with it.

He knew they wouldn't be ok, that's why he stayed hidden with her...

[Mariagoner]

Please feel free to bring one quote that shows precisely that Aerys was already burning Lord Paramounts/Nobles with no trial or something similar (eta2: not to forget demanding the heads of young lords), effectively displaying the same amount of madness as during the Rebellion, and I'll be happy to accept it.

I'm not going to say that Aerys was acting quite as mad before the rebellion as he did after -- but there's a clear escalation of his madness and paranoia. It wasn't as though he was some nice, cheerful bloke beforehand and Brandon's actions somehow caused him to do a 180 on his personality and go completely insane. Even before the Lyanna incident, we know that Aerys:

1) Was afraid of Twyin's growing popularity, to the point where he pissed Tywin off by "stealing away" his son and heir Jaime into the Kingsguard (as Jaime says in the excerpt from ASOS). Hardly a sign of political astuteness or a patient mind.

2) Was so disliked by the people that they nick-named him King Scab for cutting himself on the Iron Throne repeatedly (this was his nick-name pre-Rebellion, before Mad King became popular). Hardly a sign of mental stability and a clear signal that his actions were causing to be seen askance by many.

2) Was growing increasingly paranoid and had imported Varys over to be his spy-master (and Varys later stoked Aerys' paranoia further, according to Stannis). Again, a sign that he was getting worse over time.

3) Was burning people alive, getting aroused, and then raping his poor wife Rhaella afterward (this was even before Brandon). Rhaella wasn't attacked just once either -- Jaime clearly remembers many occasions where he's forced to hear her being raped and gouged, and told by his brothers in the Kingsguard that he can do nothing.

4) Was pulling stunts like ripping Ilyn Payne's tongue out for supposed "arguing" against him. (Though Cersei states that Ilyn Payne hadn't done anything nearly as disrespectful as Tyrion does to Joffrey). Again, hardly a sign that

5) And most importantly, was acting in a way that made Golden Boy Rhaegar (who of course was so brilliant) want to depose him "eventually." Rhaegar even says to Jaime (in a flash-back): "When the battle [of Trident is] done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but ... well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return."

So in sum, we have plenty of evidence that Aerys was nuts for a long time -- and in fact, Rhaegar even confirms it by saying he should have "made changes" to Aerys rule (aka depose that nutty sumbitch) long before. But he didn't because... I dunno... still 14 year old girls left to be plowed. Or whatever.

In any case, Rhaegar's biggest mistake was not taking Aerys out before King Crazy screwed up Rhagear's already hopelessly unrealistic plans. If you want textual evidence, it's all there in the books.

[corbon]

Corbon, I admire your arguments but I do not agree with them. Principally, you seem to be saying that Aerys was a relatively quietly insane man whose sudden pyromaniac kill-them-all tendencies could not possibly be expected. In fact, I would argue that any reasonably intelligent person would realize that Aerys was slipping off the cliff of relatively sanity and already plunging towards the river of screaming madness full-tilt.

Look, if you had your facts right, then I'd be arguing with you, not against you. But you consistently and insistently have your facts wrong, timewise at least. Fix that, then you might have a chance at making a reasonable argument for your case.

In the mean time, Aerys had ups and downs, and was clearly a full blown paranioc, but he was a successfully functioning king who still ruled the kingdom and still had wide support. This is proven by the fact that even after he displayed the higher levels of madness at Brandon's trial and the immediate aftermath, he still had the support of much of the realm. Stannis very nearly fought for Aerys against his own brother, and still doubts his decision.

Any suggestion that Aerys was already proven incapable of ruling is pure fan-fic with not a shred of support in the books.

From this site's Wiki: http://awoiaf.wester...ys_II_Targaryen

And this was years before any of the trouble with Lyanna had ever started. In short, this was not some guy who was cheerfully living his life, only slightly twitching every once in a while. This was a man who was unstable, abusing his wife, killing people horribly with wildfire, and causing even loyal Barristan Selmy to wonder if he should have let Aerys die years before, in the Defiance of Duskendale incident.

No, it was not.

The wife abuse, the killing people with wildfire etc, there is not a single instance of these sorts of things happening before Brandon's Trial.

You keep taking weak secondary sources (like the wiki) and then making mis-assumptions about what they say. Those facts are based on primary sources, and we have solid timelines for those. They are after Brandon's trial.

I guess you could argue that Illyn Payne's treatment counts (it was before the trial). Thats arguable - I don't think it does myself. In a culture where death is a regular penalty for a variety of crimes, castration for rape, losing a hand for stealing, etc etc are normal punishments, losing a tongue for mocking the King is harsh, but not an insane level of punishment.

If Rhaegar honestly didn't realize his father was mad enough to do something hasty and horrific out of delusional paranoia in a terribly unstable, frightening political shit-storm, I... I just... I...

First, there is no "terribly unstable, frightening political shitstorm" here. Thats a fan invention based on a desire to hate Rhaegar, not a clear reading of the text, the characters involved or the histories.

What we have is a minor event - a betrothed woman running off with another man. Worse shit than this happens regularly. Its easily fixed, one way or another, wthout war. Its been done before plenty of times without war - or rather, worse things have. You know the Blackwood/Bracken feud? That started because they were fighting to be the kings mistress! One king spent a night at a nobles castle and left the noble with his three maiden daughters all with bastards in their belly, and the noble was happy and rewarded!

But Brandon didn't check his facts, didn't check his target, didnt check in his brain, and what he started was a political shitstorm. A High Lord's heir publicly committing treason. Thats political. And serious, since death is the automatic penalty.

I mean... seriously. What did Rhaegar think would happen? Crazy Paranoid Fire Daddy would somehow turn into a cheerful, patient, calm diplomat and urge the frightened family and fiancee of Lyanna (and the angry family of Elia) to sit back, relax, and wait for Rhaegar to stop ravaging and come back home?

In what universe would Aerys be capable of that level of calm diplomacy?

There is no calm diplomacy needed. Aerys and Rickard are on the same side here. Rickard approaches Aerys wanting his daughter back. Aerys agrees as he does not want his untrustworthy son having a woman he didn't choose, especially not with Aerys already haven chosen Elia for Rhaegar.

All that is needed is for some idiot not to go in all guns blazing when shooting doesn't accomplish anything.

Thats a reasonable expectation. That it wasn't met is entirely on Brandon, and maybe whoever fed him false information, if someone did.

And this is what I disagree with the most. Aerys was a complete and utter nut-case.

Except that every time you've tried to show this, you've mis-timed your data. At the time in question he was the paranoid-but-functional "Scab King", not the raving "Mad King" from near the end.

Rhaegar knew it -- he wanted to remove his father from power at some point, even before Aerys died. But stupidly enough, he let Aerys live

Right so Aerys is still competent enough to forestall Rhaegar's plans. That in itself proves his competency level is still high enough that he had not yet earned removal.

And 'stupid' would be killing Aerys or doing anything to undermine the position of King. that hurts Rhaegar and all his descendents, not to mention the whole world if he has the prophecies anywhere near pegged.

He apparently, maybe, started to work on a plan to remove the king 'constitutionally' (have enough support amongst the nobles to remove the King in a Great Council) but Aerys proved competent enough to block this, making it not yet necessary.

Maybe it shouldn't be Rhaegar's responsibility to baby-sit his father -- but if he's going to be king, he has to put the good of the kingdom ahead of his own desires.

Oh yes? How? He's got no power, and the king has absolute power. He's distrusted and probably somewhat alieanted poltically as a result. He's already tried (we think) once and been blocked.

But sure, if you think he can snap his fingers and fix everything...

And putting the good of the kingdom first? Who is to say he wasn't doing just that? Theres a prophesy (and remember prophecies are real and proven in this world and the entire Targaryen existence owes itself to taking one seriously) that has something about 3 heads of a dragon, A Song of Ice and Fire and it seems, saving the world. Everything points to him actually working on that.

And if that means he makes sure his crazy mentally ill father isn't in the position to kill important people and create a civil war -- well, that's what he has to do.

Excellent, I'll just snap my fingers... because anything else is stupid selfish and irresponsible.

Otherwise, Rhaegar should have abdicated from his position as crown prince responsibly, not abandoned his family and run off with a teenage girl because he was too much of a wimp to deal with the pressure.

Ultimately, Rhaegar's poor decisions lead many, many people to a horrible death. And even if plenty of other people were also fucked up (hey Brandon, hey Aerys), Rhaegar was the one who got the ball rolling in the most irresponsible way.

Oh, so you can abdicate being crown prince now? And thats not selfish, stupid or irresponsible? And it helps how?

I'm seriously judging anyone who thinks Brandon's actions were stupid but Rhaegar and Lyanna's are justifiable <_<

Thats ok, your judgement has been noted as someone who advocates mindless violence without even checking there is any solid basis for it.

I'm not going to say that Aerys was acting quite as mad before the rebellion as he did after -- but there's a clear escalation of his madness and paranoia. It wasn't as though he was some nice, cheerful bloke beforehand and Brandon's actions somehow caused him to do a 180 on his personality and go completely insane.

Except you've repeatedly insisted he did act that mad before the rebellion, and continue to do so, getting your facts wrong, below.

Even before the Lyanna incident, we know that Aerys:

1) Was afraid of Twyin's growing popularity, to the point where he pissed Tywin off by "stealing away" his son and heir Jaime into the Kingsguard (as Jaime says in the excerpt from ASOS). Hardly a sign of political astuteness or a patient mind.

2) Was so disliked by the people that they nick-named him King Scab for cutting himself on the Iron Throne repeatedly (this was his nick-name pre-Rebellion, before Mad King became popular). Hardly a sign of mental stability and a clear signal that his actions were causing to be seen askance by many.

2) Was growing increasingly paranoid and had imported Varys over to be his spy-master (and Varys later stoked Aerys' paranoia further, according to Stannis). Again, a sign that he was getting worse over time.

Right. So in summary, he's unpopular, jealous, and paranoid.

But not a raving lunatic and not entirely unfit to be king just because of these things.

3) Was burning people alive, getting aroused, and then raping his poor wife Rhaella afterward (this was even before Brandon). Rhaella wasn't attacked just once either -- Jaime clearly remembers many occasions where he's forced to hear her being raped and gouged, and told by his brothers in the Kingsguard that he can do nothing.

No, it was NOT before Brandon's Trial. All of these things are attested to only much later.

4) Was pulling stunts like ripping Ilyn Payne's tongue out for supposed "arguing" against him. (Though Cersei states that Ilyn Payne hadn't done anything nearly as disrespectful as Tyrion does to Joffrey). Again, hardly a sign that

Mocking him, not arguing, not that it makes a lot of difference (but please, get some facts right).

But, while perhaps harsh, this is hardly any indication of being unfit to rule. Hundreds of Kings throughout real history have done much worse than this. Mocking the King within his own earshot has always been a dangerous thing to do. Frankly Illyn Payne was lucky to come away alive from that little piece of stupidity. Which does not make Aerys any 'righter' of course.

5) And most importantly, was acting in a way that made Golden Boy Rhaegar (who of course was so brilliant) want to depose him "eventually." Rhaegar even says to Jaime (in a flash-back): "When the battle [of Trident is] done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but ... well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return."

Right. Because he wasn't a good king, wasn't liked, wasn't respected. But when Rhaegar did (maybe) try to call the council, Aerys blocked it, showing his competency.

So in sum, we have plenty of evidence that Aerys was nuts for a long time -- and in fact, Rhaegar even confirms it by saying he should have "made changes" to Aerys rule (aka depose that nutty sumbitch) long before. But he didn't because... I dunno... still 14 year old girls left to be plowed. Or whatever.

In any case, Rhaegar's biggest mistake was not taking Aerys out before King Crazy screwed up Rhagear's already hopelessly unrealistic plans. If you want textual evidence, it's all there in the books.

In sum, you still can't sort out your facts and are arguing based on misapprehensions. Indeed, the textual evidence is all there in the books, but you are using it, your using secondary sources and making mistakes from them.

[TorCub Tormundson]

He knew they wouldn't be ok, that's why he stayed hidden with her...

RAHEGAR: YEAH IM GONNA ABDUCT ME A STARK GIRL BUT THEN IM GONNA LAY LOW SO NOTHING WILL HAPPEN! HURR DURR.

[The Wolves]

I'm not going to hold Brandon's actions against him, what he did was totally understandable. Rhaegar's on the other hand wasn't, he just runs off with a lord's daughter and it doesn't even occur to him that her family might not be ok with it.

I will certainly hold Brandon's actions against him. He went into the Targaryen's region to threaten the Targaryen Prince. Brandon had a few companions and he goes to threaten the prince where his family's army resided and where they held power. And he does this where a crazy unpredictable king who likes to burn people resides.

And Brandon was not even head of House Stark at the time any action he took regarding getting his sister back should have come from Rickard Starks' mouth and orders.

Brandon was stupid and hotheaded he did put a bunch of men in danger. Brandon certainly does get to be held responsible for his actions. I would have killed him to if he came and yelled for my son to come out and die