Maybe Rhaegar was obsessed with Lyanna?

[Natasi]

I haven't yet read a convincing argument (or any argument really) for why a true love story between R and L is boring, one-dimensional, or not complex enough. When I read those reasons all I can think of is, that's just a reader opinion and not based on any foreshadowing in the actual text. How do any of us know whether a love story would be too boring and not complex enough for this story? Just because some people don't like love stories doesn't make that a plausible explanation for R and L not having one.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I haven't yet read a convincing argument (or any argument really) for why a true love story between R and L is boring, one-dimensional, or not complex enough. When I read those reasons all I can think of is, that's just a reader opinion and not based on any foreshadowing in the actual text. How do any of us know whether a love story would be too boring and not complex enough for this story? Just because some people don't like love stories doesn't make that a plausible explanation for R and L not having one.

Based on GRRM 's writing it seems too romantic, haven't you noticed there haven't been any true romances in the five books he has witten.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Viserys was never kind. He abused her all the time.

He started out as kind boy just as Aerys did

[King of Winters]

Based on GRRM 's writing it seems too romantic, haven't you noticed there haven't been any true romances in the five books he has witten.

From what I've read in the Re-Read section in Rethinking Romance, I think R+L was a real romance.

And I have to agree with Natasi that if people don't like real love stories, then they either don't like R+L's one or they don't want the, to have one.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Or maybe she ran off and became Septa Lemore and the 'Aegon' she's traveling with is really -- the third head of the dragon!

Hey, awesome. I think I came up with a new crack theory!

haha true

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

From what I've read in the Re-Read section in Rethinking Romance, I think R+L was a real romance.

And I have to agree with Natasi that if people don't like real love stories, then they either don't like R+L's one or they don't want the, to have one.

I didnt say they werent in love, but the whole eloping thing soo doesn't sound GRRM, I believe Rhaegar loved the prophecy more than Lyanna even though he did love Lyanna

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I'm curious what would Rhaegar do if he won at Trident and then find at Tower of Joy Lyanna dead and with boy when he clearly expected another daughter? Would he try find another woman because he would want third head or he would decide that maybe Aegon's future son would be Prince?

Thats a good question, I believe his obsession with the prophecy was similar to Viserys's one for being king, so he might of looked for another woman to get his visenya.

[King of Winters]

I didnt say they werent in love, but the whole eloping thing soo doesn't sound GRRM, I believe Rhaegar loved the prophecy more than Lyanna even though he did love Lyanna

I agree I think he was a little obsessed with the prophecy, but I think Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love for real.

[svareff]

I didnt say they werent in love, but the whole eloping thing soo doesn't sound GRRM, I believe Rhaegar loved the prophecy more than Lyanna even though he did love Lyanna

It could be very GRRM if you consider that the "only perfect love story" of westeros caused a terrible civil war and the death of the two persons involved.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

It could be very GRRM if you consider that the "only perfect love story" of westeros caused a terrible civil war and the death of the two persons involved.

Maybe...but I find it weird that Lyanna would agree to get locked up in the tower of Joy, she may have been selfish at the begging when Rhaegar took her, but maybe Rhaegar was soo obsessed with the prophecy he didnt trust her love so he had to lock her up.

[Natasi]

It could be very GRRM if you consider that the "only perfect love story" of westeros caused a terrible civil war and the death of the two persons involved.

This. Also, George could very well have one true love story in his saga amidst all the turmoil. I don't find that un-GRRM at all.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

This. Also, George could very well have one true love story in his saga amidst all the turmoil. I don't find that un-GRRM at all.

No one said they weren't in love... the issue is did he love her more than the prophecy or not?

[Ygrain]

It could be very GRRM if you consider that the "only perfect love story" of westeros caused a terrible civil war and the death of the two persons involved.

:agree:

[Where Boars Glow]

_{Rheagar was obsessed with himself...and the prophesy about himself. Lyanna was a means to the end of this. In that sense he was obsessed with her....but R + L = J is not a fracking love story.}

[Pikachu101]

@Ygrain not sure if I'm completely convinced about the midwife theory tbh

For starters Rhaegar should have hired the realm's best maesters for something like this and if there was more than one person with Ned aren't people going to start talking and threaten Jon's safety?

Just going to have to wait for more info from the books :dunno:

[King of Winters]

@Ygrain not sure if I'm completely convinced about the midwife theory tbh

For starters Rhaegar should have hired the realm's best maesters for something like this and if there was more than one person with Ned aren't people going to start talking and threaten Jon's safety?

Just going to have to wait for more info from the books :dunno:

If the people helping them were from House Dayne, then they could still be loyal to and honour Ned's wish and not say anything about Jon and Lyanna.

There are two known people who would be old enough to know what happened, and that's Allyria and Wylla,and so far, of both of them know, they've kept quiet.

[Inquisitor Glokta]

Knowing how the madness runs in the Targaryen family, maybe Rhaegar became obsessed with Lyanna Stark?

Maybe she went willingly (or maybe not) and then wanted to leave, because she found out about her family situation, Rhaegar didn't let her. And in a messed up way of dealing with everything, tried to please her, showering her with blue winter roses.

Anyone think it's unlikely for GRRM to go with the tragic love cliche?

Are suggesting, that Rhaegar actually had a room filled with newspaper clippings and other creepy serial killer stuff? Because if so, I like it!

[Ygrain]

@Ygrain not sure if I'm completely convinced about the midwife theory tbh

For starters Rhaegar should have hired the realm's best maesters for something like this and if there was more than one person with Ned aren't people going to start talking and threaten Jon's safety?

Just going to have to wait for more info from the books :dunno:

I think that secrecy played a major role here, as during the Rebellion, Lyanna had to hide from both Robert as well as Aerys, therefore bringing in maesters from all over Westeros would definitely spill the beans. With servants, it is different - we see great loyalty from servants to their masters (in worthy houses, I doubt anyone would show the same degree of loyalty to e.g. Boltons), so if the servants at ToJ were picked among the Starfall staff for their reliability and loyalty, they certainly could be trusted.

On the whole, the point about the presence of another person(s) at ToJ remains, as well as the connection to Starfall via Dayne and Wylla, and while it cannot be claimed that a midwife/wetnurse was definitely there, it cannot be claimed that there wasn't, either, because there is no information to draw such a conclusion from.

[Nami]

Seriously. I'm willing to believe Rhaegar was a morally decent man with good intentions but he had the political acumen of a goddamn squirrel. Even if he ended up winning his rebellion and ended up king, I'm willing to bet his reign would have ran into trouble sooner or later -- if not with the Lyanna issue, than with something else. It's a little hard to rule when you begin your kingship by trampling over the rights/feelings/alliances of at least 3 noble families (Baratheons, Starks, Martells) and make people nervous about how you're going to screw them over later!

(Because seriously. Just running off with the daughter of a high lord whose engaged with to another high lord even though you're married to the daughter of a great house already? Diplomatic cluster-fuck any way you look at it. And if I were the high lords, I'd be mighty scared about what other things Rhaegar might think he could do to me and my family based on 'prophecy.' I wouldn't be surprised if he got bit by the Targaryen crazy genes sooner or later!)

This thing of Rhaegar being a great king seems to be the general belief of the people in Westeros, because until the Lyanna debacle according to Selmy he was: dutiful, deliberate and apparently a very nice and just person, that makes for a good king. The Lyanna thing is considered by Selmy as a crazy act of love/infatuation, not that Rhaegar was a big asshole.

[Nami]

Maybe...but I find it weird that Lyanna would agree to get locked up in the tower of Joy, she may have been selfish at the begging when Rhaegar took her, but maybe Rhaegar was soo obsessed with the prophecy he didnt trust her love so he had to lock her up.

Ok, let's be clear here: she was getting some good lovin', she wasn't locked up. TOJ (tower of JOY. Joy? really now how obvious is that) was their love nest.