Maybe Rhaegar was obsessed with Lyanna?

[SaltpansResident]

It does strikes me as a bit odd that Lyanna is bothered by Robert's affairs and bastards, and yet runs away with a married man and becomes the "other woman" as it were. It just seems a bit hypocritical, and possibly out of character for the honorable Starks. On another note, Can anyone find the quote from the AGOT with Ned's reflections on Rhaegar and Robert? I had to return my copy to the library, and I would love to have the exact wording.

I think this is a really good point, but I also wonder if Lyanna actually was very bothered by the bastard children. Maybe she was just filing it for the future under, "Bastards, childcare and administrative."

[corbon]

I always thought (heard) that Rhaegar just kidnapped and raped her.

Fixed that for you?

Its the first thing we hear in the books. But all the evidence that slowly accumulates afterward actually points to it being a lie (or more accurately, a fantasy that allows Robert to shed any blame for the mess his life is).

It does strikes me as a bit odd that Lyanna is bothered by Robert's affairs and bastards, and yet runs away with a married man and becomes the "other woman" as it were. It just seems a bit hypocritical, and possibly out of character for the honorable Starks. On another note, Can anyone find the quote from the AGOT with Ned's reflections on Rhaegar and Robert? I had to return my copy to the library, and I would love to have the exact wording.

Its around here in many places, but I don't have it to hand.

To address your concern (a common one) though...

Is it better to be the only wife of a drunken lecher of a man who will ignore you and trample on your honour at every turn, bedding every wench he can lay his hands on?

or

Is it better to be a second wife (polygamy being a legal option for Targs) of a man famously dutiful, whose first wife was an arranged marraige to a woman whom he does not love, and who cannot have further children and whom he has no reason to sleep with ever again?

Rhaegar is entirely capable of being 'faithful' to her despite also being married to Elia, in a way that Robert could never do despite being only married to her.

Also worth mentioning, the Starks are not a collective mind. Each is their own person. Ned has his own morality and honour which is different from his siblings.

"Stark honour" is a misnomer. Ned was Ned, stiff quiet and shy unlike Lyanna and Brandon, and brought his kids up his own way. Brandon was very different, and Lyanna her own person too.

Would you expect Arya to behave the same way a Sansa? To have the same responses and honour code? Of course not!

[Pikachu101]

I think it's kind of weird that people are saying "this is an interesting theory," because I thought that this "theory" is the face-value conclusion readers are meant to draw, and it's what Robert believed.

But the majority of readers aren't drawn to it, are they?

There's an insistence that Rhaegar loved Lyanna, and they ran off because they were in love and wanted to be together :ack:

I don't like the "R loved L" theory because:

A) it's not complex or interesting

B ) it makes Rhaegar a tragic hero and everyone forgets he caused the deaths of thousands

C) IMO it makes both Rhaegar and Lyanna very one dimensional

Is it better to be a second wife (polygamy being a legal option for Targs) of a man famously dutiful, whose first wife was an arranged marraige to a woman whom he does not love, and who cannot have further children and whom he has no reason to sleep with ever again?

First of all I think it's clear Rhaegar wasn't "famously dutiful" if he was willing to run off with a 16 year old and abandon his wife and kids.

Secondly so what if it was an arranged marriage? Everyone had an arranged marriage, IMO Rhaegar's incredibly selfish and shallow if he thinks just because he's Rhaegar Targaryen he gets to marry for love.

I like how you're not even thinking about Elia or her opinion on the matter :)

Because everything you wrote is sexist. You're implying that it's Elia's fault Rhaegar isn't trying to make their marriage work, because Elia can't have kids Rhaegar shouldn't do his husbandly duties and make sure she's happy.

[Nami]

First of all I think it's clear Rhaegar wasn't "famously dutiful" if he was willing to run off with a 16 year old and abandon his wife and kids.

Um, Selmy said that. Why do you always question what's in the books?

What GRRM writes it's the canon.

Of course you can write fanfiction where Rhaegar is a douche monster, it's still not the canon story.

[Ygrain]

Um, Selmy said that. Why do you always question what's in the books?

What GRRM writes it's the canon.

Of course you can write fanfiction where Rhaegar is a douche monster, it's still not the canon story.

Besides, he was famously dutiful the first 23 years of his life, until the incident with Lyanna.

[TepidHands]

Ned remembers Lyanna, while she lay dying, opens her hand, and blue rose petals so old they'd turned black fell out... She was, in her extremity, holding onto the roses Rhaegar handed her at the tourney.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

But the majority of readers aren't drawn to it, are they?

There's an insistence that Rhaegar loved Lyanna, and they ran off because they were in love and wanted to be together :ack:

I don't like the "R loved L" theory because:

A) it's not complex or interesting

B ) it makes Rhaegar a tragic hero and everyone forgets he caused the deaths of thousands

C) IMO it makes both Rhaegar and Lyanna very one dimensional

First of all I think it's clear Rhaegar wasn't "famously dutiful" if he was willing to run off with a 16 year old and abandon his wife and kids.

Secondly so what if it was an arranged marriage? Everyone had an arranged marriage, IMO Rhaegar's incredibly selfish and shallow if he thinks just because he's Rhaegar Targaryen he gets to marry for love.

I like how you're not even thinking about Elia or her opinion on the matter :)

Because everything you wrote is sexist. You're implying that it's Elia's fault Rhaegar isn't trying to make their marriage work, because Elia can't have kids Rhaegar shouldn't do his husbandly duties and make sure she's happy.

Hmm its true everyone says Rhaegar love Lyanna maybe it is a red herring, since Alfie said Jon's parentage is a bit like starwars when GRRM told him maybe Rhaegar is the bad guy all along :o

[Pikachu101]

Um, Selmy said that. Why do you always question what's in the books?

What GRRM writes it's the canon.

Of course you can write fanfiction where Rhaegar is a douche monster, it's still not the canon story.

So please explain how a dutiful man can leave his wife and kids in the clutches of his insane father whilst he goes off with a 16 year old girl?

I don't trust Selmy's opinion, he's clearly biased considering how he even though acknowledges that Rhaegar caused the deaths of thousands he still thinks he would make a great king

[Nami]

So Selmy is biased when it comes to Rhaegar but not when it comes to Aerys and Robert?

[Pikachu101]

So Selmy is biased when it comes to Rhaegar but not when it comes to Aerys and Robert?

Yes because he knows and accepts that Aerys and Robert were terrible rulers. But he's in denial that Rhaegar was just as bad, even though he acknowledged what Rhaegar did

[Kuther2000]

Selmy thinks Rhaegar would have been the greatest King ever. But this is not hard when you have Mad King Aerys who was burning people alive and Robert, the drunkard and whore to take cues from. He may have been, but what is the say that Rhaegar wouldn't go crazy after he took the throne and been worse than Aerys because people never saw and coming. He was so beloved. It is the normal and most charismatic ones you have to watch out for. They would think of how he once was and telling themselves that it couldn't be true. He couldn't be.

All I know is that Rhaegar's diplomacy skills suck.

[Blede]

It does strikes me as a bit odd that Lyanna is bothered by Robert's affairs and bastards, and yet runs away with a married man and becomes the "other woman" as it were. It just seems a bit hypocritical, and possibly out of character for the honorable Starks. On another note, Can anyone find the quote from the AGOT with Ned's reflections on Rhaegar and Robert? I had to return my copy to the library, and I would love to have the exact wording.

Here it is:

For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not.

It is right before meeting Jaime Lannister and his red cloaks in the street.

[The Wolves]

Yes because he knows and accepts that Aerys and Robert were terrible rulers. But he's in denial that Rhaegar was just as bad, even though he acknowledged what Rhaegar did

But Rhaegar didn't cause thousands to die IMO. And yes Barristan has served Kings over half his life I think he would know who would make a great king.

[Nami]

Selmy thinks Rhaegar would have been the greatest King ever. But this is not hard when you have Mad King Aerys who was burning people alive and Robert, the drunkard and whore to take cues from. He may have been, but what is the say that Rhaegar wouldn't go crazy after he took the throne and been worse than Aerys because people never saw and coming. He was so beloved. It is the normal and most charismatic ones you have to watch out for. They would think of how he once was and telling themselves that it couldn't be true. He couldn't be.

All I know is that Rhaegar's diplomacy skills suck.

He said Rhaegar would be a better king than Robert, Aerys and Jaeherys combined. Those were his exact words.

Yes because he knows and accepts that Aerys and Robert were terrible rulers. But he's in denial that Rhaegar was just as bad, even though he acknowledged what Rhaegar did

What? LOL

Why the hell do you think he's in denial? Where did you get this from?

[WildBlood]

But the majority of readers aren't drawn to it, are they?

There's an insistence that Rhaegar loved Lyanna, and they ran off because they were in love and wanted to be together :ack:

I don't like the "R loved L" theory because:

A) it's not complex or interesting

B ) it makes Rhaegar a tragic hero and everyone forgets he caused the deaths of thousands

C) IMO it makes both Rhaegar and Lyanna very one dimensional

First of all I think it's clear Rhaegar wasn't "famously dutiful" if he was willing to run off with a 16 year old and abandon his wife and kids.

Secondly so what if it was an arranged marriage? Everyone had an arranged marriage, IMO Rhaegar's incredibly selfish and shallow if he thinks just because he's Rhaegar Targaryen he gets to marry for love.

I like how you're not even thinking about Elia or her opinion on the matter :)

Because everything you wrote is sexist. You're implying that it's Elia's fault Rhaegar isn't trying to make their marriage work, because Elia can't have kids Rhaegar shouldn't do his husbandly duties and make sure she's happy.

I asked this in another thread, but do you not take the actual text into consideration? On top of what was stated above, Egg and his kids all married for love not arranged marriages...to the sorrow of the kingdom, but none the less. It is the truth.

[Ygrain]

He said Rhaegar would be a better king than Robert, Aerys and Jaeherys combined. Those were his exact words.

What? LOL

Why the hell do you think he's in denial? Where did you get this from?

As it is said, by ourselves, we judge the others :P

[Pikachu101]

But Rhaegar didn't cause thousands to die IMO. And yes Barristan has served Kings over half his life I think he would know who would make a great king.

Barristan: "Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna and a thousand died for it"

Like I said he's biased and I for one certainly would not take his word to say Rhaegar would be an ideal king

[Nami]

Barristan: "Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna and a thousand died for it"

Like I said he's biased and I for one certainly would not take his word to say Rhaegar would be an ideal king

:dunno:

[Morienthar]

Rhaegar would probably have been a decent King but the problem is the man lost his ability to think straight after he started to put his mind into the prophecy.

[Nami]

Rhaegar would probably have been a decent King but the problem is the man lost his ability to think straight after he started to put his mind into the prophecy.

or something else...