Maybe Rhaegar was obsessed with Lyanna?

[Nami]

Also worth mentioning, the Starks are not a collective mind. Each is their own person. Ned has his own morality and honour which is different from his siblings.

"Stark honour" is a misnomer. Ned was Ned, stiff quiet and shy unlike Lyanna and Brandon, and brought his kids up his own way. Brandon was very different, and Lyanna her own person too.

Would you expect Arya to behave the same way a Sansa? To have the same responses and honour code? Of course not!

Finally someone addressed this. Seems to be the general idea of most people who read the books/unsullied: that everyone from a house acts and thinks the same

Obviously Brandon wasn't that honorable when he most likely impregnated Ashara Dayne and went around taking the maidenhead of highborn women

[Pikachu101]

Rhaegar would probably have been a decent King but the problem is the man lost his ability to think straight after he started to put his mind into the prophecy.

Same could be said about Viserys as well. Dany remembers him being a kind, loving brother who told her stories about dragons and princes.

It was the desperation to get his crown back that drove him insane

[The Wolves]

Same could be said about Viserys as well. Dany remembers him being a kind, loving brother who told her stories about dragons and princes.

It was the desperation to get his crown back that drove him insane

I think it was the stress of trying survive at such a young age, fear for his and his sister's life. The constant humiliation of begging for shelter and basic human needs. The sadness over his family's deaths and there was always a chance that he would have been more susceptible to mental illness since he was born of incest. These were the factors that drove him insane.

[Nami]

Viserys was never kind. He abused her all the time.

[Mariagoner]

I remember thinking this when I first read the books; that Lyanna went willingly, but that finding out about her brother and father's death would break whatever romantic spell they were wrapped up in, especially on her end.

I could also see her having second thoughts before she got the news about Brandon and Rickards deaths too. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure the first month was seriously EPIC; being whisked off on horseback from her unwanted, impending marriage to a magical tower by a devastatingly handsome silver haired prince professing his love and assuring her that everything will be peachy (seriously, I'd run away with him too and I'm old enough to know better!)

After about three or four weeks of non-stop, 24 hour a day "sexy time" in the tower however, reality begins to sink in. This guy is married, he has kids, he's moody. She's homesick and realizes her family's probably worried sick about her. It also wouldn't surprise me if he just happened to "forget" to fill her in on his whole prophecy/baby agenda until after he got her out to the TOJ and it would be too late to for her to change her mind or leave.

I could see her waking up one morning and thinking, "OMGS, what have I gotten myself into? I'm stuck in some decrepit old tower in a blazing hot desert in the middle of nowhere with this nutty married man and his bodyguards with nothing to do all day but listen to him play the harp and talk about how I'm going to help him fulfill his destiny. What have I done?"

That's exactly what I think happened as well. While the idea of being wrapped in an isolated cocoon with your gorgeous lovah sounds great... in reality, any normal woman would get sick of it after a while. Who wants to be in a tower all day, doing nothing but having sick and hearing some sad pretty-boy braying on about a prophecy endlessly? And it couldn't have made Lyanna happy to be either cut off from any news of the outside world (if Rhaegar decided not to let her know what happened to her brother, father, and so on) or to know that she had indirectly contributed to her father and brother's death, as well as a massive rebellion that would lead to the death of thousands.

Unless Lyanna was utterly love-sick or experiencing Stockholm Syndrome, she had to have at least partially regretted running off with (or catching the eye of, if it wasn't consensual) Rhaegar at some point. If nothing else, dying in childbirth without even a fricking midwife to help her must have given her second thoughts.

Plus, I rather doubt Lyanna would be allowed to roam around and pretend to be a knight after she becamse pregnant. Can't let the precious vessel of the prince's beloved child of prophecy accidentally hurt herself in any way, right? Though of course, apparently getting a mid-wife for her difficult wife is far too hard!

Rhaegar would probably have been a decent King but the problem is the man lost his ability to think straight after he started to put his mind into the prophecy.

Am I the only one who thinks Rhaegar would make a pretty terrible king? He probably (or hopefully) wouldn't ever sink to Joffrey levels of wanton torture but I wouldn't want to be ruled by a man who thinks it's a good idea to kidnap a high lord's daughter who's engaged to another high lord and run off without making sure my severely mentally ill father/king doesn't end up bolloxing everything up.

Seriously. I'm willing to believe Rhaegar was a morally decent man with good intentions but he had the political acumen of a goddamn squirrel. Even if he ended up winning his rebellion and ended up king, I'm willing to bet his reign would have ran into trouble sooner or later -- if not with the Lyanna issue, than with something else. It's a little hard to rule when you begin your kingship by trampling over the rights/feelings/alliances of at least 3 noble families (Baratheons, Starks, Martells) and make people nervous about how you're going to screw them over later!

(Because seriously. Just running off with the daughter of a high lord whose engaged with to another high lord even though you're married to the daughter of a great house already? Diplomatic cluster-fuck any way you look at it. And if I were the high lords, I'd be mighty scared about what other things Rhaegar might think he could do to me and my family based on 'prophecy.' I wouldn't be surprised if he got bit by the Targaryen crazy genes sooner or later!)

[Pikachu101]

If nothing else, dying in childbirth without even a fricking midwife to help her must have given her second thoughts.

...

Though of course, apparently getting a mid-wife for his difficult wife is far too hard!

OMG it never occurred to me that Lyanna never had a midwife to help her with the birth! :o

This puts a the whole scenario on a whole new level tbh. On one hand you could say Rhaegar didn't actually care if Lyanna lived or died, he just wanted her to give birth to his Visenya.

But on the other hand it also implies that he didn't care about her and their baby. A Maester/midwife insures the newborn lives so unless one of his KG men is a secret midwife Lyanna and the baby could die from complications.

Or it could be that it was the KG didn't care about her and the baby. The minute Rhaegar galloped off to war, Lyanna was alone and neglected. But that wouldn't make sense because they're extremely loyal to Rhaegar.

Alternatively Jon was born premature, but they were going to send for a midwife later.

So many thoughts with just that small evidence. I can't believe I didn't see it before :dunno:

Seriously. I'm willing to believe Rhaegar was a morally decent man with good intentions but he had the political acumen of a goddamn squirrel. Even if he ended up winning his rebellion and ended up king, I'm willing to bet his reign would have ran into trouble sooner or later if not with the Lyanna issue, than with something else. It's a little hard to rule when you begin your kingship by trampling over the rights/feelings/alliances of at least 3 noble families (Baratheons, Starks, Martells) and make people nervous about how you're going to screw them over later!

:agree:

Angering 5/7 of Westeros before his reign even begins isn't what you'd want in an ideal king. Rhaegar clearly lacks in the skills of diplomacy nor did he fully think things through.

Then we have the Lyanna debacle, he may love her but the people won't. Thinking how Edward IV's marriage was seen by many historians as a political error.

Also Jon and any future sons she may have is just screaming for another Blackfyre rebellion.

[Mariagoner]

OMG it never occurred to me that Lyanna never had a midwife to help her with the birth! :o

Seriously. That was one of the most WTF moments in the series to me when it came to Rhaegar. Like -- Jesus man, it isn't enough that you run off with a woman guaranteed to make not one, not two, but three noble families (Baratheon, Martell, Stark) pissed at you right from the get-go? You also don't have the smarts or ability to make sure your 15 year old wife/mistress/captive/whatever who's carrying your incredibly important prophecy baby has some bloody help when she's giving birth to the son that you're fighting a war over?!

He's either stupid enough to think that Lyanna is so awesome she can do it all herself, despite being an inexperienced teenage girl who may or may not be emotionally traumatized -- or he lacks the planning ability to figure out that he needs to keep a very discreet, experienced and incredibly well-paid midwife in the Tower of Joy before he starts his boink-a-thon with his hot teenaged mistress. (And if said midwife wants to run when things go bad? That's what the king's guard is for! I'm pretty sure she'd do her job at sword-point, if needed.) That is just amateur hour when it comes to planning a cospiracy out.

Rhaegar clearly lacks in the skills of diplomacy nor did he fully think things through.

The more I think about Rhaegar, the more I'm horribly amused by how incredibly inept all his plans were. I mean... what did he expect would happen when he runs off with Lyanna and leaves his crazy ass father in charge? The man gets sexually excited by burning people to death, was nicknamed 'The Mad King' and was involved in a massive conspiracy to burn King's Landing down if he was ever in danger of being toppled. Why the hell did Rhaegar think leaving with maybe a few notes sent off to people (Dear Lord Stark: Made off with your daughter. She's going to bear my prophecy baby. Please don't make a fuss - you know how cranky daddy gets sometimes. Ta-ta!) while King Crazy was still in charge was a good idea?

Either way, I wouldn't trust Rheagar to plan a picnic. He's awful at any level of detail!

[Morienthar]

OMG it never occurred to me that Lyanna never had a midwife to help her with the birth! :o

This puts a the whole scenario on a whole new level tbh. On one hand you could say Rhaegar didn't actually care if Lyanna lived or died, he just wanted her to give birth to his Visenya.

But on the other hand it also implies that he didn't care about her and their baby. A Maester/midwife insures the newborn lives so unless one of his KG men is a secret midwife Lyanna and the baby could die from complications.

Or it could be that it was the KG didn't care about her and the baby. The minute Rhaegar galloped off to war, Lyanna was alone and neglected. But that wouldn't make sense because they're extremely loyal to Rhaegar.

Alternatively Jon was born premature, but they were going to send for a midwife later.

So many thoughts with just that small evidence. I can't believe I didn't see it before :dunno:

There are those who will tell you that Wylla was there with the KG and hence she became the Wet Nurse for Jon.

[Ygrain]

Seriously. That was one of the most WTF moments in the series to me when it came to Rhaegar. Like -- Jesus man, it isn't enough that you run off with a woman guaranteed to make not one, not two, but three noble families (Baratheon, Martell, Stark) pissed at you right from the get-go? You also don't have the smarts or ability to make sure your 15 year old wife/mistress/captive/whatever who's carrying your incredibly important prophecy baby has some bloody help when she's giving birth to the son that you're fighting a war over?!

He's either stupid enough to think that Lyanna is so awesome she can do it all herself, despite being an inexperienced teenage girl who may or may not be emotionally traumatized -- or he lacks the planning ability to figure out that he needs to keep a very discreet, experienced and incredibly well-paid midwife in the Tower of Joy before he starts his boink-a-thon with his hot teenaged mistress. (And if said midwife wants to run when things go bad? That's what the king's guard is for! I'm pretty sure she'd do her job at sword-point, if needed.) That is just amateur hour when it comes to planning a cospiracy out.

Eh. You have an exhausting list of the persons present at ToJ that you are dead sure there was no midwife? Curious, I'd love to get my hands on it, as well.

The more I think about Rhaegar, the more I'm horribly amused by how incredibly inept all his plans were. I mean... what did he expect would happen when he runs off with Lyanna and leaves his crazy ass father in charge? The man gets sexually excited by burning people to death, was nicknamed 'The Mad King' and was involved in a massive conspiracy to burn King's Landing down if he was ever in danger of being toppled. Why the hell did Rhaegar think leaving with maybe a few notes sent off to people (Dear Lord Stark: Made off with your daughter. She's going to bear my prophecy baby. Please don't make a fuss - you know how cranky daddy gets sometimes. Ta-ta!) while King Crazy was still in charge was a good idea?

1) we DON'T KNOW whether Rickard knew anything or not because we don't have a single reference to that, and Brandon's action doesn't provide any clue to that, either.

2) the plan to burn KL was conceived about a year later, so you're speaking with hindsight. The same goes for burning people, as we have no record of Aerys doing this prior the Rebellion, either.

[Mariagoner]

Eh. You have an exhausting list of the persons present at ToJ that you are dead sure there was no midwife? Curious, I'd love to get my hands on it, as well.

If you find a midwife anywhere, let me know. Because all I remember is Ned finding Lyanna lying in a pool of blood after she screams his name in exhaustion. So... not really great planning on Rhaegar's part.

(I mean, goddamn, if her prophesized child is so important, I'd have surrounded by as many loyal mid-wifes and/or maestars as I could freaking find. What's the use of fighting a damn war for her and the child if they both die during child-birth?)

1) we DON'T KNOW whether Rickard knew anything or not because we don't have a single reference to that, and Brandon's action doesn't provide any clue to that, either.

2) the plan to burn KL was conceived about a year later, so you're speaking with hindsight. The same goes for burning people, as we have no record of Aerys doing this prior the Rebellion, either.

I still don't see anything that convinces me that Aerys was some paragon of mental health even before the rebellion or that Rhaegar wasn't acting recklessly and irresponsibly in leaving his father in charge while he ran off with Lyanna. (Leaving... what? A few notes behind to explain his actions? That... really doesn't help much.)

For god's sake, Aerys' nickname was The Mad King. Not The Slightly Loony King. Or The Wee Bit Tetchy King. He was so nuts that he was mauling his wife constantly, becoming increasingly erratic in his decisions, getting practically everyone to hate him and even Rhaegar wanted to dethrone him -- although Rhaegar somehow decided it would make sense to do it after creating a horribly unstable political situation.

Seriously. The Mad King. How much more warning do you need not to let this guy in charge?

[Ygrain]

If you find a midwife anywhere, let me know. Because all I remember is Ned finding Lyanna lying in a pool of blood after she screams his name in exhaustion. So... not really great planning on Rhaegar's part.

(I mean, goddamn, if her prophesized child is so important, I'd have surrounded by as many loyal mid-wifes and/or maestars as I could freaking find. What's the use of fighting a damn war for her and the child if they both die during child-birth?)

Read again, then. She is in a "bed of blood", which means "birthing bed", not necessarily a physical pool of blood, and we don't know if she screams Ned's name or not because that's the part of the dream when Poole is trying to wake him.

Furthermore, after Lyanna dies, they found Ned, and since Howland Reed was the only survivor of the fight, there was at least one another person present. Could as well be the midwife/nurse.

[Mariagoner]

Furthermore, after Lyanna dies, they found Ned, and since Howland Reed was the only survivor of the fight, there was at least one another person present. Could as well be the midwife/nurse.

Ah yes, the sneaky ninja midwife nurse who is apparently there to attend to Lyanna despite never being noted in the text. Damn woman must have trained with Howland Reed in the art of Westerosi invisibility to have been on hand to help Lyanna so invisibly!

[Morienthar]

Ah yes, the sneaky ninja midwife nurse who is apparently there to attend to Lyanna despite never being noted in the text. Damn woman must have trained with Howland Reed in the art of Westerosi invisibility to have been on hand to help Lyanna so invisibly!

There's always the chance she was ignored or even killed in the aftermath of the TOJ to protect the secret.

[Mariagoner]

There's always the chance she was ignored or even killed in the aftermath of the TOJ to protect the secret.

Or maybe she ran off and became Septa Lemore and the 'Aegon' she's traveling with is really -- the third head of the dragon!

Hey, awesome. I think I came up with a new crack theory!

[Pikachu101]

There are those who will tell you that Wylla was there with the KG and hence she became the Wet Nurse for Jon.

Then how come Ned never mentions her? He only recollects Howland Reed being there. Wylla was part of the Dayne household which implies that Ned met her when he went to give Ashara Arthur's sword.

Also if I was a crown prince and was about to have my third child I'd make sure the mother had some of the best maesters in the kingdom. Not some random woman who couldn't even save Lyanna in the birthing bed

[Mariagoner]

I want to read the adventures of this awesome sneaky ninja midwife now. Maybe she'll pop up as an eventual viewpoint character? She can't be any more pointless than half the Ironborn!

[Morienthar]

Then how come Ned never mentions her? He only recollects Howland Reed being there.

Also Wylla was part of the Dayne household which implies that Ned met her when he went to give Ashara Arthur's sword.

I don't man you'll have to ask the ones who adamantly defend the theory.....If you look around in the R+L=J threads you'll find some of them.

I just told you such a theory exists,I'm a neutral on most Jon is legitimate theories.

[Pikachu101]

I don't man you'll have to ask the ones who adamantly defend the theory.....If you look around in the R+L=J threads you'll find some of them.

I just told you such a theory exists,I'm a neutral on most Jon is legitimate theories.

Sorry, it's just the whole midwife issue is new to me and I wanted to know all the plot holes and theories behind it

[Toos]

I'm curious what would Rhaegar do if he won at Trident and then find at Tower of Joy Lyanna dead and with boy when he clearly expected another daughter? Would he try find another woman because he would want third head or he would decide that maybe Aegon's future son would be Prince?

[Ygrain]

Sorry, it's just the whole midwife issue is new to me and I wanted to know all the plot holes and theories behind it

Basically, the text clearly states that there was at least one other person present at ToJ:

"Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black. After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it."

They = two or more persons, one of them Howland Reed, so who was this other person, if Ned and Howland were the only survivors of the fight?

Ned doesn't say much about the ToJ, only that it was old and round and damaged, and that he pulled it down afterwards. However, if R+L and the KG were staying there for some time, they had to get their supplies somewhere, someone had to do the cooking, washing etc. Ned never mentions any of these activities, yet they had to be performed by someone, and unless the KG did them themselves, it means there were servant(s). Where could they obtain servants who could be relied on not to spread word of Rhaegar's hideout and who kept them supplied? The most common guess is Starfall, the home to Arthur Dayne. So, if they had a connection with Starfall, they could arrange any other services that were needed, such as a midwife or perhaps even a maester, or a wetnurse - and look, yes, there happens to be one Wylla at Starfall, a long-time Dayne servant and wetnurse, who claims to be Jon's mother. It is assumed that she was one of those mysterious persons present at ToJ, as after Lyanna's death, Jon had to be fed somehow.