Why does Tyrion deserve Casterly Rock?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Eh? Tyrion doesn't do anything to interfere with the rightful heir to the Rock, does he? I mean, isn't that himself?

Iron Throne, Stannis.

[Kahl Trollo]

Deserving is neither here nor there. With Jaime in the KingsGuard, Tyrion was the lawful heir to the Rock, all past issues, treatment, and all that really don't enter into it.

Tywin, for various reasons, was going to do everything in his power to make sure that never happened. Personally I believe this includes the events of Tyrion's trial. Hard for Tyrion to inherit the Rock if he's dead.

But its was. Past tense. Tyrion has been found guilty of killing Joffrey, his Nephew and King (whether he did or didn't - that's how the cards fell) and his Father and Hand of the King. He's a wanted man living in exile. And so now the only thing he's lawfully entitled to is to be made another foot shorter.

(Shae is not forgotten, but purposefully omitted - as her death isn't going to have any influence on this situation whatsoever... dats the way the world turns).

But all though the series we see this - especially in the whole 'who is the King?'. You have had a bunch of people you could say were lawfully, rightfully, or deserved of the Kingship, and from each point of view they all are and none of them are at the same time. In the end all these things mean bugger all, and it falls to what a man/woman can take and hold by force of will and arms.

As it could be for Tyrion. All the lawful, rightful, and deserving in the world won't matter if he comes back and takes what he thinks is his.

You can look on this as good or bad, just, unjust, deserved, undeserved, then take this micro view to a bigger picture and see where another character is doing exactly the same thing on a larger scale and think the opposite, for the same reasons.

You can do this same thought exercise on many different issues in the books as well.

It's something I really enjoy in this story, and makes it quite thought provoking.

[Mad Monkey]

Iron Throne, Stannis.

Oh, well, that's different and more complicated. He wanted to deny the IT to Stannis because he assumed that Stannis would put him and his family to death if he conquered King's Landing. He barely bothers to pretend that Joffrey is a legitimate king or even better than Stannis -- he just doesn't want to lose the war. It's intensely hypocritical, I agree, but the circumstances are a little different.

But in the case of the Rock, Tyrion is/was the clear heir to the Rock. There was no one else who was contending for it. Even Jaime seems to prefer his white cloak. The law clearly favored Tyrion and if it wasn't for Tywin's blind obstinacy he would have eventually gotten the Rock (assuming that he isn't attainted, that is).

[Steinnis]

*sigh* I have been attempting to coyly reference Stannis and the Iron Throne.

Again Tyrion doesn't care about the rights of the rightful heir thus why should they apply to him. Seeing how he actively works to deny the rightful heir his claim in ACOK.

What has Stannis got to do with anything? We're talking about CR, and the rightful heir. Not the IT. Tyrion is fighting for the Lannister's at that time, he sees Stannis as a rebel and a usurper.

[Minsc]

What has Stannis got to do with anything? We're talking about CR, and the rightful heir. Not the IT. Tyrion is fighting for the Lannister's at that time, he sees Stannis as a rebel and a usurper.

Tyrion knows that Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen are all bastards made out of incest thus Stannis is Robert's rightful heir.

[TalalOfDorne]

Anybody in this series would be justified in killing Tywin. Tyrion did the realm a favor in putting that evil piece of shit down, Tyrion should be held a hero in Westeros' eyes. Tywin deserves anything that came his way and than some that it came from his child is like the best thing ever.

I want Casterly Rock in ruins on Tywin's worthless rotting carcass but if I can't have that than I want Tyrion as Lord of the Rock because I still think he is the best Lannister and that's not saying much

Cant say I agree with this. Though on the bolded part I do.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

What has Stannis got to do with anything? We're talking about CR, and the rightful heir. Not the IT. Tyrion is fighting for the Lannister's at that time, he sees Stannis as a rebel and a usurper.

Except that Tyrion knows fully well that he himself is a traitor and Stannis the lawful king.

[Mad Monkey]

Except that Tyrion knows fully well that he himself is a traitor and Stannis the lawful king.

Maybe he doesn't know. It's certainly possible in theory that Joffrey is really Robert's son. Tyrion hasn't seen the evidence, he just knows about the incest. He may believe that Joffrey is Jaime's son but there's still a small chance technically speaking that he isn't. Besides, if Stannis wins he'll probably die.

Also, there's that "law of conquest" bullshit that says that if you beat the real king in a battle that somehow makes you the real king, except it only works for a fixed number of iterations. (So Stannis and Robert can steal the throne from Aerys and Rhaegar and it's all straight, but Joffrey and Tyrion can't steal it from Stannis and Robert because that's "treason", a word here which means "anything that the people I don't like want to do,".)

[Minsc]

Maybe he doesn't know. It's certainly possible in theory that Joffrey is really Robert's son. Tyrion hasn't seen the evidence, he just knows about the incest. He may believe that Joffrey is Jaime's son but there's still a small chance technically speaking that he isn't. Besides, if Stannis wins he'll probably die.

Who knows if had skipped town and side with Stannis off the bat, it is possible that Stannis might name him Lord of Casterly Rock in how he isn't in rebellion.

[Djinn]

Oh, well, that's different and more complicated. He wanted to deny the IT to Stannis because he assumed that Stannis would put him and his family to death if he conquered King's Landing. He barely bothers to pretend that Joffrey is a legitimate king or even better than Stannis -- he just doesn't want to lose the war. It's intensely hypocritical, I agree, but the circumstances are a little different.

But in the case of the Rock, Tyrion is/was the clear heir to the Rock. There was no one else who was contending for it. Even Jaime seems to prefer his white cloak. The law clearly favored Tyrion and if it wasn't for Tywin's blind obstinacy he would have eventually gotten the Rock (assuming that he isn't attainted, that is).

He could have just left the city and Stannis would get the Iron Throne. No, he actively tried to deny someone else rightful inheritance. That clearly undermines any such claims of his own.

Sansa is/was clear heir to WF, but that didn't stop Robb from issuing a will in favor of Jon(we assume). Stannis was also clearly Roberts heir for SE, and yet Renly got it. The current Lord as the power to designate someone else as heir other that the next in line. Pretty sure Tywin intended to grant CR, if not Jaime, to someone else other then Tyrion(Tommen, Kevan's kids, cousins).

[Steinnis]

Tyrion knows that Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen are all bastards made out of incest thus Stannis is Robert's rightful heir.

Except that Tyrion knows fully well that he himself is a traitor and Stannis the lawful king.

Yet, his family hold the capital and the throne. I doubt he would of had the authority to yield it to Stannis, Hand or no. He was expected to fight on the Lannister's side. As they are seen as the royal family at the time.

[Kahl Trollo]

The interesting thing about that battle is that it mirrors what happened years earlier in many many ways - only this time you cheer for a different outcome, and some of the players face the real possibility of what they did years ago coming home to roost.

[Mad Monkey]

He could have just left the city and Stannis would get the Iron Throne. No, he actively tried to deny someone else rightful inheritance. That clearly undermines any such claims of his own.

You mean, leave his nephew and niece to die? That's pretty disturbing; I feel as if Tyrion would have been bashed even harder if he had done that too. It's kind of a no-win situation; betray the king or betray your family.

Sansa is/was clear heir to WF, but that didn't stop Robb from issuing a will in favor of Jon(we assume). Stannis was also clearly Roberts heir for SE, and yet Renly got it. The current Lord as the power to designate someone else as heir other that the next in line.

That's a very good point. I hadn't thought of that example -- Robb took away Sansa's inheritance not to punish her but to keep the Lannisters from stealing Winterfell. Another example of this is the issue with the Hornwood lands, where Bran is asked to help designate an heir to the lands because there is no one really in line for it, or the succession issues that led Egg to take the throne. The laws of succession aren't set in stone, and can be modified depending on the wishes of the current lord or based on exigent circumstances that arise.

Here's a question -- if the current Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, Robert Baratheon, chose to designate the boy Joffrey Waters of King's Landing as his heir even though the legal next-in-line is Stannis, that would be OK too?

[Djinn]

You mean, leave his nephew and niece to die? That's pretty disturbing; I feel as if Tyrion would have been bashed even harder if he had done that too. It's kind of a no-win situation; betray the king or betray your family.

That's a very good point. I hadn't thought of that example -- Robb took away Sansa's inheritance not to punish her but to keep the Lannisters from stealing Winterfell. Another example of this is the issue with the Hornwood lands, where Bran is asked to help designate an heir to the lands because there is no one really in line for it, or the succession issues that led Egg to take the throne. The laws of succession aren't set in stone, and can be modified depending on the wishes of the current lord or based on exigent circumstances that arise.

Here's a question -- if the current Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, Robert Baratheon, chose to designate the boy Joffrey Waters of King's Landing as his heir even though the legal next-in-line is Stannis, that would be OK too?

Well, i meant evacuate his family from KL. But he did stood between Stannis and the IT. Why shouldnt others stand between him and CR?

Sucession laws are the default state, but clearly the current holder of the seat can choose someone else. Robert could appoint Joffrey Waters for the Throne, but he isn't recognized as a Waters, so cause for dispute ensues.

Balon also had objections to Theon, Selwyn doesnt seem to treat Brienne as heir.

[Mad Monkey]

Well, i meant evacuate his family from KL. But he did stood between Stannis and the IT. Why shouldnt others stand between him and CR?

True, I agree it's hypocritical. It would still be a betrayal of his family though. I actually think that Tyrion probably thinks that Stannis is a better person, but is it really practical to make Cersei and Joffrey leave KL, or to sneak both Tommen and Myrcella away from Westeros?

Sucession laws are the default state, but clearly the current holder of the seat can choose someone else. Robert could appoint Joffrey Waters for the Throne, but he isn't recognized as a Waters, so cause for dispute ensues.

Balon also had objections to Theon, Selwyn doesnt seem to treat Brienne as heir.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying though. Robert named Joffrey, not Stannis. An argument can be made that Robert wanted Joffrey to succeed him, and that he wanted Eddard Stark to be his regent until he came of age. He could have asked Stannis to do so instead but he didn't. The only reason his will said something else was because Eddard Stark tampered with it, in clear defiance of Robert's legislative intent.

It would be as if Tyrion came to Tywin as he was dying and transcribed his will naming Jaime the heir to the Rock, and instead of writing 'Jaime' wrote, 'my lawful heir'.

[Djinn]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying though. Robert named Joffrey, not Stannis. An argument can be made that Robert wanted Joffrey to succeed him, and that he wanted Eddard Stark to be his regent until he came of age. He could have asked Stannis to do so instead but he didn't. The only reason his will said something else was because Eddard Stark tampered with it, in clear defiance of Robert's legislative intent.

It would be as if Tyrion came to Tywin as he was dying and transcribed his will naming Jaime the heir to the Rock, and instead of writing 'Jaime' wrote, 'my lawful heir'.

Yes, but Robert intent/named Joffrey Baratheon, his legitimate eldest son, as his heir. The appointment was based on treason/usurpation. It's not like Robert didn't had any other choices( 2 brothers, 16 bastards). That should nullify the will, just like Robb's will should be nullified since Bran and Rickon are still alive. Usually, when such step is necessary, there's a explanation of the reasons why the change is made. If the reasons don't apply, the change is reversed(or it should). Anyway, that where many claim disputes come from.

[The joyful man]

Tyrion didnt kill Tywin for Casterly Rock. Tywin had done too much wrong to him and Tyrion was just lashing out about everything. He simply kept his promise to kill Tywin if he called his wife a whore again. He is the only claimant of Casterly Rock that could actually rule and do good.

[chrisdaw]

He is (possibly) the rightful heir.

[Drogon'sWrath]

Tyrion is, or at least was, the rightful heir, regardless of what Tywin had to say. That said, he lost that right when he was found guilty of killing Joffrey and when he killed his father. Not that I blame him too much on the second account. Tywin was a complete prick to Tyrion. Out of all the living Lannisters, he would be the best fit for CR, although Kevan had the potential to be just as good or better. Cersei is nuts, Tommen is king, Myrcella and Martyn are children, and Lancel is part of the Faith Militant and can't hold lands. I'm sure there are other cousins I haven't mentioned, but at least out of these, Tyrion is the most competent. However, he would have to conquer CR, and I think he'll fail. He'll be close, but in the end, I don't see him succeeding, which leaves Kevan's son Martyn as next in line.

[BlackStark]

Tyrion is, or at least was, the rightful heir, regardless of what Tywin had to say. That said, he lost that right when he was found guilty of killing Joffrey and when he killed his father. Not that I blame him too much on the second account. Tywin was a complete prick to Tyrion. Out of all the living Lannisters, he would be the best fit for CR, although Kevan had the potential to be just as good or better. Cersei is nuts, Tommen is king, Myrcella and Martyn are children, and Lancel is part of the Faith Militant and can't hold lands. I'm sure there are other cousins I haven't mentioned, but at least out of these, Tyrion is the most competent. However, he would have to conquer CR, and I think he'll fail. He'll be close, but in the end, I don't see him succeeding, which leaves Kevan's son Martyn as next in line.

Given the manner in which Tywin restored the Lannisters to a position of prominence in Westeros (through fear and sheer will), Tyrion is actually probably the least suited to carry on the mantle that Tywin created and is the reason he thought Tyrion was a poor fit as an heir for Casterly Rock. Tyrion lacks the stature both literally and figuratively to command the respect, loyalty, and fear of the Lannister bannermen. Without the person of Tywin or Jaime to act as an enforcer, who would follow Tyrion? People like to make the comparison between Tywin and Tyrion but they fail to see the one Tywin saw...the similarity between Tytos and Tyrion.