Why is Stannis a hero but not Jaime?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Yeah, that's far from kingslaying. Unless you consider abortion murder.

And there was no surgery, she just drank some tea. At that level of medicine, she would have scars if there was a surgery and there are none mentioned.

I wouldn't call it kingslayer if his bastards were not posing as Kings, maybe High treason #5 is a better than Kingslayer #2

[TheCrannogDweller]

I wouldn't call it kingslayer if his bastards were not posing as Kings, maybe High treason #5 is a better than Kingslayer #2

He had nothing to do with that either. For the entire time we're in his head, he keeps reiterating how he would like to take them away from the capital and just raise them as normal kids.

Still, you can pin any number of treasons on him, but a King he only slew once.

[ab aeterno]

Ab, looking at the sources of why someone turns out some way doesn't add or detract from whether one is hero/ antihero. There are sources for why Jaime is the way he is as well-- bases causes and such. Everyone has some formative stimulus that hangs over them. So looking at Stannis' "causes" are not really speaking to the issue of how he deals with them, which is how they become flaws in his case. The important thing is how the character responds to these formative stimuli. And the fact that Stannis doesn't get over Robert's shadow and chooses a path of extremism is very much why Stannis is deeply flawed, grey, and an antihero.

I agree with this. I only meant to say that it is not that Stannis doesn't intend to do the right thing, (I would argue,) but that his flaw is that he allows his jealousy and resentment of Robert to drive him to do things that are highly questionable and sometimes entirely wrong. I think his flaw is his desire for "what's mine," rather than what's right, and I think that under the surface, for Stannis, "what's mine," means "what Robert had."

That's not to discount his extremism, but like I said before, I think that his extremism was in no small part Stannis' poor reaction to his relationship with Robert.

[MotherAnduin]

He had nothing to do with that either. For the entire time we're in his head, he keeps reiterating how he would like to take them away from the capital and just raise them as normal kids.

Still, you can pin any number of treasons on him, but a King he only slew once.

Jaime refers to Tommen as his king. He just toys with the idea of taking Tommen home once. When Tywin actually tells him that she should take Tommen home, he refuses.

[Groat]

Brienne is a woman who willing supported Renly While he stealing the throne and starving tens of thousands to get it. Is there any mention of Dunk taking care of his numerous bastards?

Brienne is a text book heroine. She supported her liege lord when he made a bid for the throne, why would you blame Highgarden's decisions on Brienne? Dunk has not fathered any bastards in the novellas to date (to my knowledge), and given they would have been over 100 years in the past in the series, I'm not suprised we haven't heard of it yet.

Futhermore, both Brienne and Dunk are motivated and act by the very definition of the classical hero. They do what is right, stick up for the little guy, live by love as opposed to hate, etc... both are very classical heroes, with the normal Martin spin that one is a woman, and the other is lying about being knighted.

Jon is certainly more arguable, but I think still falls under the umbrella of the classic hero, if slightly different.

[Groat]

Jaime refers to Tommen as his king. He just toys with the idea of taking Tommen home once. When Tywin actually tells him that she should take Tommen home, he refuses.

No, he tells Cersei they should leave KL and take Tommen and Mycella to the Rock, to rule as lord and lady there and get married. It's Cersei who refuses, and since marriage and parenting are kind of a consentual thing, there's nothing Jaime can do if Cersei refuses.

[Nephenee]

I don't think Stannis is a hero either. This argument applies to those who think Stannis is a hero.

Stannis first allowed Melisandre to kill Edric Storm, and then would have done the same thing with Mance's boy. The man is a child murderer just like Jaime.

[butterbumps!]

No, I agree with this. I only meant to say that it is not that Stannis doesn't intend to do the right thing, (I would argue,) but that his flaw is that he allows his jealousy and resentment of Robert to drive him to do things that are highly questionable and sometimes entirely wrong. I think his flaw is his desire for "what's mine," rather than what's right, and I think that under the surface, for Stannis, "what's mine," means "what Robert had."

That's not to discount his extremism, but like I said before, I think that his extremism was in no small part Stannis poor reaction to his relationship with Robert.

But Jaime doesn't intend to do the wrong thing either. Both Jaime and Stannis-- and pretty much everyone in ASOIAF-- want to do the "right" thing, but either have a warped view of what "right" means, an emotional reaction or some loyalty that gets in the way, or try the "right" thing in a completely unfortunate way, using poor methods.

[yolkboy]

I don't think Stannis is a hero either. This argument applies to those who think Stannis is a hero.

Stannis first allowed Melisandre to kill Edric Storm, and then would have done the same thing with Mance's boy. The man is a child murderer just like Jaime.

Neither has murdered a child.

[TheMysteriousOne]

I don't think Stannis is a hero either. This argument applies to those who think Stannis is a hero.

Stannis first allowed Melisandre to kill Edric Storm, and then would have done the same thing with Mance's boy. The man is a child murderer just like Jaime.

I'm not sure if you understand the meaning of 'murderer'. I'm no fan of Stannis, but he has not ordered any children burned/dead.

[Dr. Pepper]

<snippity snip snip>

ab, I don't mean to be rude but I'm truly confused about what point you are trying to make. You've previously condemned the OP of using excuses for Jaime's behavior when determing where he falls on the hero scale. Yet now it seems like you are making excuses for why Stannis is flawed and using those excuses to argue that Stannis should be closer to the hero side of things if only we'd close our eyes to the flaws. It does sort of seem you are committing the same mistake as Nepheneehee.

[Nephenee]

Inasmuch as neither has murdered a child.

Agreed. But both have attempted to.

On this forum, Jaime is a child murderer because he attempted to murder one. So I'm going to go ahead and call Stannis one for allowing the murder of a child, which is no better.

[silentwanderer]

If you consider Stannis a hero, then you have to consider Jaime the superhero of the universe.

Basically, "with great power comes great reponsibility" and Jaime let himself be manipulated by Cersei far too long for it.

Stannis never flinch, for Robert, for his wife, for Davos, for the Lord of Light or even The White Walkers. Its told he must save the Realms and he puts the war on hold for it, its told that he must marry a woman he doesn't like for his House and he puts his life on hold for it, it is told he must die protecting something and he puts his fears on hold for it.

Where Jaime is the Lois Lane for Brienne's Superman, Stannis is the real deal: Thor, Spiderman, Captain America, Hulk, Iron Man, take your pick.

[butterbumps!]

Basically, "with great power comes great reponsibility" and Jaime let himself be manipulated by Cersei far too long for it.

Stannis never flinch, for Robert, for his wife, for Davos, for the Lord of Light or even The White Walkers. Its told he must save the Realms and he puts the war on hold for it, its told that he must marry a woman he doesn't like for his House and he puts his life on hold for it, it is told he must die protecting somehting and he puts his fears on hold for it.

Where Jaime is the Lois Lane for Brienne's Superman, Stannis is the real deal: Thor, Spiderman, Captain America, Hullk, Iron Man, take your pick.

You've got to be kidding.

[yolkboy]

Agreed. But both have attempted to.

On this forum, Jaime is a child murderer because he attempted to murder one. So I'm going to go ahead and call Stannis one for allowing the murder of a child, which is no better.

On this forum Jaime is an architect of defenestration, but I've never seen him described as a child murderer, save by you.

[MotherAnduin]

Brienne is a text book heroine. She supported her liege lord when he made a bid for the throne, why would you blame Highgarden's decisions on Brienne? Dunk has not fathered any bastards in the novellas to date (to my knowledge), and given they would have been over 100 years in the past in the series, I'm not suprised we haven't heard of it yet.

Futhermore, both Brienne and Dunk are motivated and act by the very definition of the classical hero. They do what is right, stick up for the little guy, live by love as opposed to hate, etc... both are very classical heroes, with the normal Martin spin that one is a woman, and the other is lying about being knighted.

Brienne supported a man she knew was wrong and she knew that King's Landing was being starved. She clearly isn't sticking for the little guy.

If Dunk supported his bastards, then he is a hero. Else, no. I reserve judgement in his case.

[Drogon'sWrath]

I don't think Stannis is a hero either. This argument applies to those who think Stannis is a hero.

Stannis first allowed Melisandre to kill Edric Storm, and then would have done the same thing with Mance's boy. The man is a child murderer just like Jaime.

I also don't think he's a hero, but he is much closer to one than Jaime imo. Jaime committed high treason by having illegitimate children with Cersei, his queen. So while he saved the kingdom once, he was a huge driving force in driving the kingdom into chaos. The only reason Stannis is rebelling is because he knows that by all the laws of Westeros, he is the rightful heir.

Now, to your point about child murder. That was all Melisandre who wanted that. Stannis was on board, but was reluctant. For example, Melisandre claimed that by killing Edric Storm, millions would be saved. Thankfully, Davos saw through that and saved him.

Also, Stannis is renowned for his sense of justice and duty. He is a good intentioned man, albeit flawed. After all, he was the only king who took the threat to the realm from the north seriously.

[Nephenee]

On this forum Jaime is an architect of defenestration, but I've never seen him described as a child murderer, save by you.

As a Jaime fan, I think I'm a lot more credible than you on this matter.

So your saying if someone attempts to murder someone there not a murderer? Lols your

Logic is laughable.

Jaime attemped to murder Bran thus he is still a murderer an attemted murderer but a murderer none the less. Jaime would probably get 25 to life in the federal pen for this offense today especially if the child was 10 years old.

Calling Jaime a hero really makes no sense. The men is a douchebag, a sisterfucker, a murderer and a bad person overall. He is almost as bad as Tyrion or his father... yeah, not a good guy.

And Jamie, The worlds most unsuccessful child murderer.

[ab aeterno]

But Jaime doesn't intend to do the wrong thing either. Both Jaime and Stannis-- and pretty much everyone in ASOIAF-- want to do the "right" thing, but either have a warped view of what "right" means, an emotional reaction or some loyalty that gets in the way, or try the "right" thing in a completely unfortunate way, using poor methods.

I agree, that's what I mentioned Jaime originally as well; I think how he lost his way morally is Jaime's tragedy, and it's really sad. When it comes to doing what's 'right," it's obviously a subjective issue. Everyone thinks they are doing what's right, but I think there's more to it than that. Jaime wanting to do what was right in protecting Rhaenys from Aerys was more right (by a reasonable conception) than Aerys was in burning Rickard Stark, and Robb executing Rickard Karstark was more right than Karstark taking his revenge on Robb's hostages. What I perhaps should say is that Stannis has a recognizably defensible notion of what is "right" or "just" but his personal flaws often prevent him from acting in a just or right manner.

ab, I don't mean to be rude but I'm truly confused about what point you are trying to make. You've previously condemned the OP of using excuses for Jaime's behavior when determing where he falls on the hero scale. Yet now it seems like you are making excuses for why Stannis is flawed and using those excuses to argue that Stannis should be closer to the hero side of things if only we'd close our eyes to the flaws. It does sort of seem you are committing the same mistake as Nepheneehee.

I don't mean to excuse anything. In saying that many of Stannis' poor decisions are rooted in his relationship with Robert I'm not excusing him for the poor decisions he makes, any more than acknowledging Tywin's experience with his father nearly bringing ruin to his family means I would be excusing him for being the monster that he is. Understanding the root of someone's flaws does not excuse them. We can look for reasons (the why) without lessening the crimes (the what); - empathy, not excuses. Stannis would be flawed even without Robert, but I would argue that the reason that his flaws manifest in the way they do is because of his relationship with Robert. That doesn't remove his agency or lessen his culpability.

[TepidHands]

Edric Storm is alive and well and living it up in Lys. No one murdered him.