Why is Stannis a hero but not Jaime?

[shiola]

You can't really compare them.. I like both of them despite what they've done. I don't think either of them are particularly "good" people, and no one should really argue that they are. I don't understand the point of this thread, since neither of them are heroes and since they're such vastly different characters anyway.

[Éadaoin]

I think some people just like to play fast and loose with the word "hero".

[Groat]

I don't think people understand the point of this thread. I'm comparing Stannis and Jaime and saying "well, Stannis is considered a hero despite x and y, but Jaime did x and y already and far greater things than Stannis ever did." So the people who consider Stannis a hero have to feel the same about Jaime, rationally.

Naphenee, I don't know if you're a troll or serious, but I have a few things to say.

1) As a serious Jaime fan and someone who actually does defend Jaime on these forums, you're making my task all that much more harder. You are only hurting Jaime's character, and you only bolster the sentiment on here that Jaime is a scumbag, something I am adamently against.

2) If you are serious, feel free to PM me about Jaime, I will be happy to work with you on constructive posts for Golden Hand the Good.

3) If you are simply trolling, please stop with these threads.

To answer your question, Stannis and Jaime are fundamentally different characters, so it's no wonder opinions vary on them. While both can be categorized as "anti heroes" as explained above, they have entirely different set of values and views of the world. Most people side with Stannis a lot because of his unfaltering committment to the law and justice, his shrewd insight, and his military commanding prowess. Most people like Jaime because of his selfless acts of heroism, his deconstruction of the knightly values and vows, and his is personal bravery. They are very different characters so it's not suprising people who view Stannis as a hero, would not view Jaime as such. I notice the same people who love Stannis, also have a strong dislike for Dany, which again is not suprising.

Most people would agree neither is a hero, and both are on 2 completely different story arcs.

[TheMysteriousOne]

I think that neither are traditional heroes.

[Mladen]

Seeing as he killed the pyromancers responsible for the wildfre and never told anyone, he could hardly think them neutralised?

Cersei found a stache beneath Baelor's Sept remember?

Yes, but I was thinking in this direction: He didn't kill every pyromancer in town. Some of them might have neutralized it later.

[Knight Of Winter]

Anyhow, the ancient wisdom was confirmed here: if you put word Stannis in your thread title, you can expect at least 40-50 responses just in first hour or so :P

[ab aeterno]

the term "hero" is being thrown around with reckless abandon.

Neither Jaime nor Stannis are literary "heroes." They are anti-heroes, which means that they are protagonists that do not follow a traditional hero's path or set of qualities.

Both sides are wrong though, because neither falls under the category of "hero."

I wouldn't say they they fit the definition of anti-heroes either. Jaime is closer by virtue of his cynicism and disrespect for authority, but I wouldn't say that either of them fit that mold to be honest. Neither of them are classical or traditional heroes, that's for sure, but I'd say that they're both somewhat closer to tragic heroes than anti-heroes, if we go by a dictionary definition. (Wikipedia saves me from having to copy all the different dictionary links.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

Anyhow, the ancient wisdom was confirmed here: if you put word Stannis in your thread title, you can expect at least 40-50 responses just in first hour or so :P

Well, what do you expect? Troll baiting is fun, and everything's better with bluetooth pirates Stannis. B)

[Jon's Queen Consort]

snip

I would bet that option 3 is the right one since (s)he doesn't respond at any of the comments.

[The Great Walrus]

I would bet that option 3 is the right one since (s)he doesn't respond at any of the comments.

I don't know about that, i've never met a troll who tried to actually manufacture a decent argument. Most of them just go for blatant hot button topics without much thought.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I don't know about that, i've never met a troll who tried to actually manufacture a decent argument. Most of them just go for blatant hot button topics without much thought.

that is why I said option 3 ;)

[TepidHands]

Methinks OP puts a little heart over the "i" in Jaime when she writes it in the margins of her notebook.

[butterbumps!]

I wouldn't say they they fit the definition of anti-heroes either. Jaime is closer by virtue of his cynicism and disrespect for authority, but I wouldn't say that either of them fit that mold to be honest. Neither of them are classical or traditional heroes, that's for sure, but I'd say that they're both somewhat closer to tragic heroes than anti-heroes, if we go by a dictionary definition. (Wikipedia saves me from having to copy all the different dictionary links.

No, they are anti-heroes. From OED: One who is the opposite or reverse of a hero; esp. a chief character in a poem, play, or story who is totally unlike a conventional hero.

"Anti-heroes" are characters like Don Quixote, Lucifer in Paradise Lost, and for a more recent example, Snape in HP. Anti-heroes often perform acts of true heroicism, but their motivations are not those you would typically associate with the pure goodness of a true hero.

[The Great Walrus]

that is why I said option 3 ;)

And now i look like an idiot, nice... :dunce:

[Ingelheim]

There are no heroes in ASOIAF. Jaime is no hero, the same for Stannis. Just like that. You can think about really good people, as Brienne, Sansa, Maester Aemon, Tommen, Myrcella...but they are not heroes.

[Fat Mac]

Neither Stannis or Jaime are heroes in any traditional sense at least. Both have done enough questionable acts, but they've also done heroic acts. As Stannis says "the good does not wash out the bad, nor the bad the good." Grey characters, people.

[WildBlood]

I don't think people understand the point of this thread. I'm comparing Stannis and Jaime and saying "well, Stannis is considered a hero despite x and y, but Jaime did x and y already and far greater things than Stannis ever did." So the people who consider Stannis a hero have to feel the same about Jaime, rationally.

He also did far worse things than Stannis ever did.

Neither is a hero, and they will both be dead before too long anyway.

[TalalOfDorne]

Stannis is probably an antihero but not Jaime IMO.

This again? ERo ERo where art thou?

Jaime:

• Kingslayer (x2)
  
• Oathbreaker
  
• 4 accounts of high treason
  
• Started wo5k
  
• Stood aside when a certain mad king killed 2 innocent people and their companion
  
• Stood aside when a certain mad king raped his sisterwife
  
• Trebuchet
  
• Threw a innocent 6 years old of a window so the child don’t say that he committed high treason
  

When Stannis burned people and when he killed a child?

Isn't ordering Neds men killed part of this as well?

[yolkboy]

There are no heroes in ASOIAF. Jaime is no hero, the same for Stannis. Just like that. You can think about really good people, as Brienne, Sansa, Maester Aemon, Tommen, Myrcella...but they are not heroes.

I tend to disagree with this. For example, I don't see any reason why Brienne couldn't be considered a hero (or heroine), she fits the definition to a tee, despite being somewhat unconventional.

With regards to Jaime being a hero (in it's pure meaning), I'm not sure having sex with his sister, next to the corpse of his dead son whom he couldn't have cared less about, qualifies him as a hero (by the definition I'm using).

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Stannis is probably an antihero but not Jaime IMO.

Isn't ordering Neds men killed part of this as well?

I had forgotten that! I am adding it :)