theory about mothers of targaryen children.

[Groat]

@ Mladen the very first book's plot was entirely about bloodlines and their importance. Someone tried to make a bastard the king, and we see an example of some form of magic involved with the "Baratheon Gene" that always causes the male's to have black hair. All Ned talks about is the blood in his family's veins, the First Men's blood, Jon Snow may not be a Stark, but he has Ned's blood, etc... Clearly the concept of bloodlines and genetics are important for the story, as the author has made it important by bringing the topic up repeatedly.

[Mladen]

Just because the Stark and Targ families have more magic, doesn't mean no one else can rise high or be special, also Varys could easily be a blackfyre so he would be part of the Targ group as well. I am not saying no one is special but these families I am just saying that the families have some ancient qualities in their blood that makes them more magical. it has nothing to do with other people. Other people and families can also be special.

Yes, they certainly inherited something. Bu, you also have to understand that generations of Starks and Targaryens had no magical properties. Thing isn't about blood, but person. Why Dany of all Targaryens, why half-Northern children to warg direwolves, after how many generations? This isn't about families, it's about individuals. How come Bran is greenseer, and others aren't. Beside small fact of inheritance, there is undeniable individualism when magic is concerned. IT's not related to one family, bloodline or even a nation...

And for Christ's sake this is a fantasy series we are talking about, nothing we are saying is nonsensical, honestly to deny this seems nonsensical to me. We are not talking about a history of European Monarchs or anything real. We are talking about fiction and fantasy, don't try to make it so real.

Actually, it works here too. One of the most common arguments European Monarchs were presenting about themselves is that they are chosen by God to rule. The same sense of entitlement is lurking around the Kings and Queens of Westeros. All of them think they are God-given to rule, and they believe in grandeur of their bloodline. This is fantasy genre, but reality can't be neglected when we are talking things like this. especially if the series is influenced by real-life historical events like War of Roses and others...

[Mladen]

@ Mladen the very first book's plot was entirely about bloodlines and their importance. Someone tried to make a bastard the king, and we see an example of some form of magic involved with the "Baratheon Gene" that always causes the male's to have black hair. All Ned talks about is the blood in his family's veins, the First Men's blood, Jon Snow may not be a Stark, but he has Ned's blood, etc... Clearly the concept of bloodlines and genetics are important for the story, as the author has made it important by bringing the topic up repeatedly.

The concept is important for the characters, but the obvious solution to the conflict is that bloodline has nothing to do with reality. How would you explain a bastard being a King? Or low-born men like LF or Davos rising to great power. Martin deconstructed the idea of bloodline being the most important thing and gave us wonderful world in which people are valued by what they have done.

[Groat]

The concept is important for the characters, but the obvious solution to the conflict is that bloodline has nothing to do with reality. How would you explain a bastard being a King? Or low-born men like LF or Davos rising to great power. Martin deconstructed the idea of bloodline being the most important thing and gave us wonderful world in which people are valued by what they have done.

But he hasn't deconstructed it, and bloodlines very much so have to do with reality. Did the Starks randomly choose a Direwolve for the sigil? Or maybe there is something wrt the lineage of the Starks, and First Men in general, something magically related, which is why they chose the direwolve for their sigil? Why is it the Targaryens have their prophetic green dreams? Othere characters have prophetic dreams as well, but a LOT of Targaryens seem to have it.

Ned died because of his belief in bloodlines. Did Ned die in vein because bloodlines simply don't matter? Time and time again we are shown that the concept matters heavily to the characters, and that magic is very closely related to genetics.

[Mladen]

Ned died because of his belief in bloodlines. Did Ned die in vein because bloodlines simply don't matter? Time and time again we are shown that the concept matters heavily to people, and that magic is very closely related to genetics.

Ned died because he was doing the right thing. He died because of Joffrey's foly. Ned believed in the rightful order of things, and was abandoned by Renly because of that.

Magic is closely related to genetics, but the relation isn't determinative. People believe in bllodlines because of system, and not all of them believe it. It is just like in our medieval world. People respected Dukes, Lords and Kigs, and believed they are something special, although they never were, and were just humans.

But he hasn't deconstructed it, and bloodlines very much so have to do with reality. Did the Starks randomly choose a Direwolve for the sigil? Or maybe there is something wrt the lineage of the Starks, and First Men in general, something magically related, which is why they chose the direwolve for their sigil? Why is it the Targaryens have their prophetic green dreams? Othere characters have prophetic dreams as well, but a LOT of Targaryens seem to have it.

Through Davos, LF and Varys the idea of importance of bloodline isn't deconstructed? LF, low-born screwed with everybody in the Game, and Davos surpassed many great Highlords for the position he got from Stannis. What we do in our lives count, not what family we are born into. And Stark children felt the truth of it better than anyone. Why do they have power? Why BR had power? OR Mirri Maz Duur, Maggy the frog, Marwyn, Moqorro, Melisandre, or even Thoros? Bloodline isn't the most important thing...

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Through Davos, LF and Varys the idea of importance of bloodline isn't deconstructed? LF, low-born screwed with everybody in the Game, and Davos surpassed many great Highlords for the position he got from Stannis. What we do in our lives count, not what family we are born into. And Stark children felt the truth of it better than anyone. Why do they have power? Why BR had power? OR Mirri Maz Duur, Maggy the frog, Marwyn, Moqorro, Melisandre, or even Thoros? Bloodline isn't the most important thing...

I completely agree, for me, I am not saying that it has to be one versus the other. I am saying that both are happening at the same time, individuals can rise up and do whatever they want. individuals growing to great power has nothing to do with these 2 families having more magic (or whatever you want to call it) than others. I agree with you, but I am also saying that the Stark and targaryen families are special in these books, I get into a ton of debates on whether or not Targ's have some special traits. Saying that they do in no way implies that other non-targ's cannot be great as well. Both are happening at the same time, Dany likes super hot water and brought the dragons back. this is not saying anything bad about davos or LF, they are just simply not targ's or starks. I don't understand why every discussion has to branch out to include every person ever mentioned in the books. I am saying I agree with you.

[Groat]

Ned died because he was doing the right thing. He died because of Joffrey's foly. Ned believed in the rightful order of things, and was abandoned by Renly because of that.

Magic is closely related to genetics, but the relation isn't determinative. People believe in bllodlines because of system, and not all of them believe it. It is just like in our medieval world. People respected Dukes, Lords and Kigs, and believed they are something special, although they never were, and were just humans.

Through Davos, LF and Varys the idea of importance of bloodline isn't deconstructed? LF, low-born screwed with everybody in the Game, and Davos surpassed many great Highlords for the position he got from Stannis. What we do in our lives count, not what family we are born into. And Stark children felt the truth of it better than anyone. Why do they have power? Why BR had power? OR Mirri Maz Duur, Maggy the frog, Marwyn, Moqorro, Melisandre, or even Thoros? Bloodline isn't the most important thing...

I agree bloodline isn't the most important thing, but why does the fact that Davos and LF rising high because of merit conflict with the idea that magic is tied with genetics? The 2 are mutally exclusive. A large percentage of Targaryens have prophetic "dragon dreams", are you claiming that their blood has nothing to do with this? The Stark children all are wargs, how could this be explained by anything else other than their genetics? It seems pretty clear that magical ability is tied to ones lineage.

[Ser Greg of House House]

What do you mean by closely related but not determinative.

Do you agree that a Targ (or someone with Valyrian blood) has more chance to ride a dragon? Or that a Stark (or a first man) is more likely to be a warg? Because that's what believe and I find it absurd to say that it is somehow related to a nazi-like view of the world.

[Mladen]

What do you mean by closely related but not determinative.

Do you agree that a Targ (or someone with Valyrian blood) has more chance to ride a dragon? Or that a Stark (or a first man) is more likely to be a warg? Because that's what believe and I find it absurd to say that it is somehow related to a nazi-like view of the world.

I was talking about previous debate where it was claimed that this or that bloodline is powerful, contrary to other weaker. I agree that someone with Valyrian blood has more chance to ride a dragon, but then, riding a dragon, as we know, can be taught. As for wargs, it is a gift within genetic code of First Men and therefore it is specific for them. But, even in these nations and bloodlines, we distinct individuals. How would you explain that Brandon or Lyanna, who according to Ned had wolf blood in them, weren't wargs, and sweet Sansa is? To make general statements about power of certain group of people is Nazi-like view on the world

I agree bloodline isn't the most important thing, but why does the fact that Davos and LF rising high because of merit conflict with the idea that magic is tied with genetics? The 2 are mutally exclusive. A large percentage of Targaryens have prophetic "dragon dreams", are you claiming that their blood has nothing to do with this? The Stark children all are wargs, how could this be explained by anything else other than their genetics? It seems pretty clear that magical ability is tied to ones lineage.

But, not every Targaryen had dragon dreams, nor every Stark was a warg. It has something with genetics, but to a certain point. Some attributes were given for plot reasons, other we wouldn't have obvious contrast in Dany and Viserys. You can't generalize these things, for it is always about individuals. If we count members of family treewith magical attributes as quantifier to determine which bloodline is stronger than you would have the point. But, alas, things don't work that way.

Dany likes super hot water and brought the dragons back

Hot, not super hot, and she didn't bring dragons on her own...

[lojzelote]

That would be a huge evolutionary disadvantage when it comes to spreading the superior Targaeryen Uebermensch genes. Stupid little genes, don't know what is good for them, bound to die out.

Alleles trying to keep the race pure? :D

Tbh, it woudn't be so different from the way the vampires in GRRM's Fevre Dream reproduce.

As a rule, the vampire mother dies giving birth to her first child.

Not that I believe it's the case with the Targs.

[Groat]

I was talking about previous debate where it was claimed that this or that bloodline is powerful, contrary to other weaker. I agree that someone with Valyrian blood has more chance to ride a dragon, but then, riding a dragon, as we know, can be taught. As for wargs, it is a gift within genetic code of First Men and therefore it is specific for them. But, even in these nations and bloodlines, we distinct individuals. How would you explain that Brandon or Lyanna, who according to Ned had wolf blood in them, weren't wargs, and sweet Sansa is? To make general statements about power of certain group of people is Nazi-like view on the world

But, not every Targaryen had dragon dreams, nor every Stark was a warg. It has something with genetics, but to a certain point. Some attributes were given for plot reasons, other we wouldn't have obvious contrast in Dany and Viserys. You can't generalize these things, for it is always about individuals. If we count members of family treewith magical attributes as quantifier to determine which bloodline is stronger than you would have the point. But, alas, things don't work that way.

Ok, so just to clarify your opinion, you agree that genetics matter to a certain point with magical power, but to say a certain group of people has a magical power because of genetics is a Nazi-like view on the world? There may be other contributing factors as to why someone can bond to a dragon, have a dragon dream, and warg an animal, but it seems to me the first prerequisite is the right bloodline. I don't know why of all the First Men blood lines only this current generation of Starks are wargs (South of the Wall that is), it could have to do with magic returning to the world, or it could be something special strictly for the Starks, but claiming that First Men or Valyrians descendents are inherently more powerful in magic is not a Nazi-like view, when the author has basically told us this is how it works in his universe.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Hot, not super hot, and she didn't bring dragons on her own...

SSM-- 'The Targaryans can tolerate a bit more heat than most ordinary people, they like really hot baths and things like that."

So really hot, not super hot.

But we can also conclude from this statement that Targ's are not ordinary people. SSM

[Mladen]

Ok, so just to clarify your opinion, you agree that genetics matter to a certain point with magical power, but to say a certain group of people has a magical power because of genetics is a Nazi-like view on the world? There may be other contributing factors as to why someone can bond to a dragon, have a dragon dream, and warg an animal, but it seems to me the first prerequisite is the right bloodline. I don't know why of all the First Men blood lines only this current generation of Starks are wargs (South of the Wall that is), it could have to do with magic returning to the world, or it could be something special strictly for the Starks, but claiming that First Men or Valyrians descendents are inherently more powerful in magic is not a Nazi-like view, when the author has basically told us this is how it works in his universe.

Entire Nazi-like thing wasn't about this. I am just stating that general statements are usually wrong, because not all Targaryens or all Starks, have magical abilities. There are individuals within those bloodlines that got some magical attributes, but we can't use that for generalization. Five Stark children, compared to countless others who weren't wargs isn't big number. My idea of magic is that although it is passed through blood in some cases, like warging, it is individual power.

SSM-- 'The Targaryans can tolerate a bit more heat than most ordinary people, they like really hot baths and things like that."

So really hot, not super hot.

But we can also conclude from this statement that Targ's are not ordinary people. SSM

But even this doesn't conclude that Targaryen are anything special. Even the quote from SSMs isn't about general population of Targaryens, nor does it sepcifically says how hot those baths are... It's not like they are fireproof, which they are not.

[Ser Greg of House House]

Entire Nazi-like thing wasn't about this. I am just stating that general statements are usually wrong, because not all Targaryens or all Starks, have magical abilities. There are individuals within those bloodlines that got some magical attributes, but we can't use that for generalization. Five Stark children, compared to countless others who weren't wargs isn't big number. My idea of magic is that although it is passed through blood in some cases, like warging, it is individual power.

Ok, then we agree. In ASoIaF it's not like all the First Men our all Valyrians are wargs or dragon riders. Though I don't like the comparison with nazis anyway. Even if it's not the case, Martin could have written a world where some actual races have supernatural powers and others don't (like LotR) and yet it wouldn't make it a nazi book.

[Sopranos With Swords]

I think there are so many examples because childbirth in medeival society could be extremely risky. Especially, say, on a boat in a storm or in a tower possibly without adequate midwife support or adequate sanitation.

Possible it may be significant, and I can see the logic, but most likely it's just realism on GRRMs part.

[Mladen]

Ok, then we agree. In ASoIaF it's not like all the First Men our all Valyrians are wargs or dragon riders. Though I don't like the comparison with nazis anyway. Even if it's not the case, Martin could have written a world where some actual races have supernatural powers and others don't (like LotR) and yet it wouldn't make it a nazi book.

Yes, but the Nazi-like was said before this conversation, and people stuck to it like flies... :). I am glad we resolved possible misunderstandings

[Ser Greg of House House]

Yes, but the Nazi-like was said before this conversation, and people stuck to it like flies... :). I am glad we resolved possible misunderstandings

Hehe it's just that nazi is a pretty strong word for some :)

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Entire Nazi-like thing wasn't about this. I am just stating that general statements are usually wrong, because not all Targaryens or all Starks, have magical abilities. There are individuals within those bloodlines that got some magical attributes, but we can't use that for generalization. Five Stark children, compared to countless others who weren't wargs isn't big number. My idea of magic is that although it is passed through blood in some cases, like warging, it is individual power.

But even this doesn't conclude that Targaryen are anything special. Even the quote from SSMs isn't about general population of Targaryens, nor does it sepcifically says how hot those baths are... It's not like they are fireproof, which they are not.

Well idk what to say, i think it is blaringly obvious they are special, supported by the literature on many occasions. I think you want them to not be special for some reason, so you might overlook evidence to prove your point. I have changed my mind about some things when i listen to other people's opinions, it is ok to do that.

[KingMaekarWasHere]

A Hightower lady was also married to Viserys I and according to the dangerous women book preview, she did not die birthing Aegon II or his little brother.

[Mladen]

Well idk what to say, i think it is blaringly obvious they are special, supported by the literature on many occasions. I think you want them to not be special for some reason, so you might overlook evidence to prove your point. I have changed my mind about some things when i listen to other people's opinions, it is ok to do that.

The same thing applies to you, my dear. Nothing suggests us they are anything more special than others, except of having famous name. There are Targaryens in the history who weren't special at all, as there are members of certain families who were never special and those who were. I am not overlooking anything, I am just stating the obvious. And my dear, for something to change my mind, it has to be well-reasoned and to have textual basis. This simply hasn't.