What happened to make Aerys lose respect for Tywin around 270-275AL?

[UnmaskedLurker]

Also a completely valid point haha

It's so hard for me to make decisions on what I think is going to happen next because all of the character are so interwebbed as this point I'm like ok, if Tyrion is a Targaryen then that means this for Jon and this for (f?)Aegon and this and this and this... Ugh

Thanks again for this though, I'm adding it to my pile of evidence for A+J=T

Consider this--which I think is really the whole point of A+J=T. The world has to be saved--and it has to be saved by the three heads of the dragon. Who do you think the three head of the dragon are? I think they are Jon, Dany and Tyrion. The three heads are part of a prophecy regarding the descendants of Aerys and Rhaella. While Tyrion would not be from Rhaella, he would be from Aerys. The three heads have to be Targ descendants--they have to be "of the dragon" or "of House Targ". This is the reason that GRRM had to make Tyrion the son of Aerys. Tyrion has to have the "power" of being a prophecized head of the dragon. Otherwise, the prophecy just does not make sense.

[Direwolves FTW]

Consider this--which I think is really the whole point of A+J=T. The world has to be saved--and it has to be saved by the three heads of the dragon. Who do you think the three head of the dragon are? I think they are Jon, Dany and Tyrion. The three heads are part of a prophecy regarding the descendants of Aerys and Rhaella. While Tyrion would not be from Rhaella, he would be from Aerys. The three heads have to be Targ descendants--they have to be "of the dragon" or "of House Targ". This is the reason that GRRM had to make Tyrion the son of Aerys. Tyrion has to have the "power" of being a prophecized head of the dragon. Otherwise, the prophecy just does not make sense.

So then you think Aegon is fake/a Blackfyre without the right credentials to get a dragon?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

So then you think Aegon is fake/a Blackfyre without the right credentials to get a dragon?

Oh yeah! check out this thread. One of the smartest and most astute threads on this forum, explains it all. And really it is the ONLY explanation of Illyrio's motives throughout all 5 books.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/104644-the-brightfyre-theory/

[Direwolves FTW]

Oh yeah! check out this thread. One of the smartest and most astute threads on this forum, explains it all. And really it is the ONLY explanation of Illyrio's motives throughout all 5 books.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/104644-the-brightfyre-theory/[/quote

Insert lots of thumbs up emojis here

[UnmaskedLurker]

So then you think Aegon is fake/a Blackfyre without the right credentials to get a dragon?

Oh, I think (f)Aegon will get a dragon. I just think he dies in DoD 2.0, and the dragon becomes free to be with one of the heads of the dragon. And yes, there is virtually no doubt in my mind that (f)Aegon is not the son of Rhaegar. Most likely he is a Blackfyre and/or Brightflame (or maybe Bittersteel). So (f)Aegon is a dragon of sorts--he just cannot be one of the heads of the dragon in the prophecy. It just does not work from a literary standpoint. He must simply be a foil for Dany to be a slayer of lies.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I gotta say, after reading the relvant section in TWOIAF, the George is either feeding the fire on purpose or that Tyrion and quite possibly even Cersei and Jamie just might (with emphasis on might), just might be Aerys's bastards.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I gotta say, after reading the relvant section in TWOIAF, the George is either feeding the fire on purpose or that Tyrion and quite possibly even Cersei and Jamie just might (with emphasis on might), just might be Aerys's bastards.

Well Ran (Elio--one of the authors of WoIaF) believes that the book pretty much shuts the door on A+J=C+J (presumably because it appears Joanna did not see Aerys at any point between when she left KL after being dismissed by Rhaella and the Tourney of 272). In fact, the thread that quoted him as saying the book would "casually smash some theories" specifically, he has confirmed, was a reference to the A+J=C+J theory.

But he admits that even though he is not a fan of the A+J=T theory, GRRM added fuel to fire regarding that theory by placing them in the same location at a time that easily could have been the time of conception for Tryion (so apparently that information was added specifically by GRRM and not either of the co-authors). While he may not be able to reveal everything he knows, I tend to trust him on this issue. And if GRRM is feeding the fire--what possible purpose if it comes to nothing?

[Lost Melnibonean]

Well Ran (Elio--one of the authors of WoIaF) believes that the book pretty much shuts the door on A+J=C+J (presumably because it appears Joanna did not see Aerys at any point between when she left KL after being dismissed by Rhaella and the Tourney of 272). In fact, the thread that quoted him as saying the book would "casually smash some theories" specifically, he has confirmed, was a reference to the A+J=C+J theory.

But he admits that even though he is not a fan of the A+J=T theory, GRRM added fuel to fire regarding that theory by placing them in the same location at a time that easily could have been the time of conception for Tryion (so apparently that information was added specifically by GRRM and not either of the co-authors). While he may not be able to reveal everything he knows, I tend to trust him on this issue. And if GRRM is feeding the fire--what possible purpose if it comes to nothing?

Thanks for clearing that up. It looked to me that

Aerys turned Joanna into a whore so Rhaella dismissed her, but when exactly was she dismissed?

[Jasta11]

I still don't see how this adds up to conclusive evidence. It's possible, sure, but let's not act as if it's 100% Word of God confirmed either. The most we had is that these two possibly had a fling in the past, and were in the same general location around the time of Tyrion's conception. These are clues, sure, but no rock solid evidence. Red Herrings are a thing and Martin sure as hell isn't above using them.

More to the point, who's going to reveal it? Aerys is dead, so is Tyrion's mother. Tywin didn't know, neither did Kevan because he was too much of a yes man to hide it. This leavs the very only possibility that Gerion knows and stayed silent, that Tyrion finds him somehow and gets told the secret. Which seems not only unlikely, but enormously contrived to me.

And, this still brings precious little to the story. R+L=J is a inherent part of the serie's mythos. Tyrion being Aerys's bastard doesn't, unless one argues that Tyrion absolutely has to have Targaryen blood to be a dragonrider, but then GRRM ha also dropped clues that said blood is not absolutely required (Nettles most prominently). And while this is my bias speaking, I'm starting to be sick unto death of secret Targaryens and Targaryen bastards and the like, and I don't want the only Lannister I find interesting not to be a Lannister.

[Rob Snow]

I'm only halfway through my initial scan of the World book and it occurs to me the history of Westeros is littered with questionable lineages, especially when it comes to succession. Just a few of the top of my head

Aegon the Conqueror's heir Aenys was rumored to have been fathered by a singer/mummer.

Rhaenyra's first 3 sons (Jacaerys, Lucerys, & Joeffry) where rumored to have been fathered by Harwin Strong, not Laenor Velyron.

Aegon IV's son Daeron II with his sister Naerys was rumored to have been fathered by his brother Aemon (the Dragonknight).

Even when Targaryens are not part of the equation, the question of succession, and fatherhood can get muddled:

Joeffry and Tommen Baratheon both sit the IT despite being the product of their mother and uncle's incestuous relationship.

To summarize, Tyrion's Targ paternity, while distasteful to many, is completely in line with the majority of Westerosi history.

Also in the World book, there is a passage that gives a timeframe by which Joanna Lannister was in KL and could have been impregnated by the Mad King. On page 11, Joanna was recorded as present at the Great Tournament of 272 to celebrate Aerys' 10th year on the Iron Throne. At that tournament, Aerys made inappropriate comments about her breasts, and in 273 AC Joanna gave birth to Tyrion back on Casterly Rock.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Thanks for clearing that up. It looked to me that

Aerys turned Joanna into a whore so Rhaella dismissed her, but when exactly was she dismissed?

It appears from the text that she was dismissed at the latest in 263 and the twins are born in 266, so unless they had a secret meeting in 265 or early 266, not possible for A+J=C+J.

I still don't see how this adds up to conclusive evidence. It's possible, sure, but let's not act as if it's 100% Word of God confirmed either. The most we had is that these two possibly had a fling in the past, and were in the same general location around the time of Tyrion's conception. These are clues, sure, but no rock solid evidence. Red Herrings are a thing and Martin sure as hell isn't above using them.

More to the point, who's going to reveal it? Aerys is dead, so is Tyrion's mother. Tywin didn't know, neither did Kevan because he was too much of a yes man to hide it. This leavs the very only possibility that Gerion knows and stayed silent, that Tyrion finds him somehow and gets told the secret. Which seems not only unlikely, but enormously contrived to me.

And, this still brings precious little to the story. R+L=J is a inherent part of the serie's mythos. Tyrion being Aerys's bastard doesn't, unless one argues that Tyrion absolutely has to have Targaryen blood to be a dragonrider, but then GRRM ha also dropped clues that said blood is not absolutely required (Nettles most prominently). And while this is my bias speaking, I'm starting to be sick unto death of secret Targaryens and Targaryen bastards and the like, and I don't want the only Lannister I find interesting not to be a Lannister.

Is it conclusive evidence--no. But when added to all the other clues that have been given throughout the books, it seems to be a pretty big clue. If it is a red herring, for what purpose? A red herring is supposed to distract from the real solution to a mystery--what mystery are these clues a distraction from? And a red herring usually serves as a good distraction because it is stated relatively plainly--no one has ever speculated about Tyrion's father, so it is a pretty poor red herring. Really, it would just be trolling his most loyal fans.

If GRRM wants it revealed--he has a way to do it. Maybe Selmy (he was KG at the time), maybe someone else. But GRRM is more than creative enough to come up with a way to have it come out.

R+L=J is not part of any mythos--except that people have been speculating about it for years. There is not one mention in any of the books that directly connects Jon to R or L. Now I am a firm believer in RLJ, but it is no more mythos than AJT. Now the mystery of who is Jon's mother is a bit of an issue--but Ned is never questioned as not being Jon's father. WoIaF confirms, by the way, that Nettles is dragonseed (p. 81). As far as secret Targs--there really is only one--Jon. Tyrion would be Tyrion Hill, a Targ bastard. fAegon is a Targ pretender. There are others that were not originally known by the readers to be Targs (such as Aemon), but they never hid their Targ identity to others in the story.

As to why AJT is needed for the story, you are partially correct, but it is more than that. Based on the prophecy, the three heads of the dragon must come together to win the Battle for the Dawn. I believe the three heads are Jon, Dany and Tyrion. To be a head "of the dragon" Tyrion needs to be "of the dragon" (not "of the lion"). So he needs to have a Targ father. If Tyrion was just going to be a plain old dragon rider, then there were other ways to allow Tyrion to ride a dragon (such as give him a Targ grandmother). But the significance is not that he will ride a dragon, the significance is that he will be a head of the dragon--and that requires a royal Targ father.

[snip]

I agree with most all of what you said. The information about Joanna's whereabouts the year prior to Tyrion's birth has been discussed quite a bit--but in this thread mainly in spoiler boxes. In the WoIaF sub-forum, it has been discussed more openly. And yes, that information has been viewed by even most of the strongest detractors of ATJ as some amount of evidence in favor of the theory.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I still don't see how this adds up to conclusive evidence. It's possible, sure, but let's not act as if it's 100% Word of God confirmed either. The most we had is that these two possibly had a fling in the past, and were in the same general location around the time of Tyrion's conception. These are clues, sure, but no rock solid evidence. Red Herrings are a thing and Martin sure as hell isn't above using them.

More to the point, who's going to reveal it? Aerys is dead, so is Tyrion's mother. Tywin didn't know, neither did Kevan because he was too much of a yes man to hide it. This leavs the very only possibility that Gerion knows and stayed silent, that Tyrion finds him somehow and gets told the secret. Which seems not only unlikely, but enormously contrived to me.

And, this still brings precious little to the story. R+L=J is a inherent part of the serie's mythos. Tyrion being Aerys's bastard doesn't, unless one argues that Tyrion absolutely has to have Targaryen blood to be a dragonrider, but then GRRM ha also dropped clues that said blood is not absolutely required (Nettles most prominently). And while this is my bias speaking, I'm starting to be sick unto death of secret Targaryens and Targaryen bastards and the like, and I don't want the only Lannister I find interesting not to be a Lannister.

The WOIAF confirms Nettles as a 'dragonseed'. Blood of the Dragon is a requirement for riding dragons.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I'm only halfway through my initial scan of the World book and it occurs to me the history of Westeros is littered with questionable lineages, especially when it comes to succession. Just a few of the top of my head

Aegon the Conqueror's heir Aenys was rumored to have been fathered by a singer/mummer.

Rhaenyra's first 3 sons (Jacaerys, Lucerys, & Joeffry) where rumored to have been fathered by Harwin Strong, not Laenor Velyron.

Aegon IV's son Daeron II with his sister Naerys was rumored to have been fathered by his brother Aemon (the Dragonknight).

Even when Targaryens are not part of the equation, the question of succession, and fatherhood can get muddled:

Joeffry and Tommen Baratheon both sit the IT despite being the product of their mother and uncle's incestuous relationship.

To summarize, Tyrion's Targ paternity, while distasteful to many, is completely in line with the majority of Westerosi history.

Also in the World book, there is a passage that gives a timeframe by which Joanna Lannister was in KL and could have been impregnated by the Mad King. On page 11, Joanna was recorded as present at the Great Tournament of 272 to celebrate Aerys' 10th year on the Iron Throne. At that tournament, Aerys made inappropriate comments about her breasts, and in 273 AC Joanna gave birth to Tyrion back on Casterly Rock.

Excellent post! yes I have been saying the same. Tyrin being Aerys' son fits in perfectly with not only Westerosi History but especially Targaryen history (the last 300 years). These people were very good looking and could not keep it in their pants at all, tons and tons of bastards everywhere, makes sense for Aerys to have at least one.......

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I gotta say, after reading the relvant section in TWOIAF, the George is either feeding the fire on purpose or that Tyrion and quite possibly even Cersei and Jamie just might (with emphasis on might), just might be Aerys's bastards.

:)

[Lost Melnibonean]

:)

Fortunately, somebodwupthread stopped my madness about Cersei and her little brother Jaime, pointing out that the timeline made it highly unlikely as to those two. But Tyrion, well...

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Fortunately, somebodwupthread stopped my madness about Cersei and her little brother Jaime, pointing out that the timeline made it highly unlikely as to those two. But Tyrion, well...

Yes I agree with that, I've never been a contributor to the twins being bastards (they are just too perfect).

But the door for Tyrion has been left wide effing open by The World of Ice and Fire, so that, combined with all the evidence and hints in my OP........

[Lost Melnibonean]

Yes I agree with that, I've never been a contributor to the twins being bastards (they are just too perfect).

But the door for Tyrion has been left wide effing open by The World of Ice and Fire, so that, combined with all the evidence and hints in my OP........

Just like Oberyn, it could swing either way.

[Ruadhri]

It really doesn't have to have any relevance to the theory as such… and it most probably doesn't.

But a fascinating point, to me at least, is the fact that IF this theory is true, then Jon chatted with TWO uncles in Winterfell's courtyard during King Robert's feast. In the show, at least.

'Never forget who you are. Wear it like armour, and it can never be used to hurt you'.

;)

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Just like Oberyn, it could swing either way.

LMFAO

But a fascinating point, to me at least, is the fact that IF this theory is true, then Jon chatted with TWO uncles in Winterfell's courtyard during King Robert's feast. In the show, at least.

'Never forget who you are. Wear it like armour, and it can never be used to hurt you'.

;)

IN the book it is slightly different, but yeah Jon meets with Benjen and Tyrion at WF. Then he goes to the Wall with Tyrion where he chats with TYrion and Aemon (another uncle). I think these are all very significant conversations.

'Ofttimes a very small man can cast a very large shadow'

[Ruadhri]

But the door for Tyrion has been left wide effing open by The World of Ice and Fire, so that, combined with all the evidence and hints in my OP........

How so, in comparison to before, pray tell? I might have missed something (obviously I have), I've yet to get a copy of TWOIAF.