Jaime: one of best swordsmen in history of Westeros

[Nephenee]

It surprises me that no one has brought this up in the Jaime vs. Arthur threads:

The realization chilled him. Robert had been stronger than him, to be sure. The White Bull Gerold Hightower as well, in his heyday, and Ser Arthur Dayne. Amongst the living, Greatjon Umber was stronger, Strongboar of Crakehall most likely, both Cleganes for a certainty. The Mountain's strength was like nothing human. It did not matter. With speed and skill, Jaime could beat them all.

"All." That clearly means everyone in his list, including Dayne.

And then there's this:

“Aragorn’s pretty tough though,” Martin allows, “but Jaime is, fully functioning, one of the great swordsmen in the history of Westeros.”

From a GRRM interview.

[m00mba]

And?

[Ramsay B.]

I could beat Michael Jordan in basketball.

[Vuron]

Are you saying that Jaime and Darkstar are the same person?

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

I could beat Michael Jordan in basketball.

i can beat Michael Vick at dog fighting

[Light a wight tonight]

Actually Jaime observed that with a lot of practice he might be able to beat his squire, Peck. He considers a training session with Illyn Payne successful if he's only "killed" twice. He's now Goldenhand the Just Average.

[MRHD]

There's a good discussion to be had here, I think. Jaime probably does honestly believe he could beat all those people. It's not that unfathomable, considering that he is a top tier fighter among the living, and being named to the Kingsguard at the age of fifteen is a good indication that he at least deserves to be considered in the GOAT discussion. Not to mention that as Selmy himself says, who wins a battle depends on many things:

“A slick spot in the grass may mean defeat, or what you ate for supper the night before. A change in the wind may bring the gift of victory.” He glanced at Ser Jorah. “Or a lady’s favor knotted round an arm.”

So depending on the circumstances Jaime, with his level of skill, could probably beat any one of them (the reverse is of course also true).

Some might deride Jaime for thinking so high of his own skill, but I think that's necessary to become the very best. You have to have a high opinion of your own abilities; if you think you're going to lose, then you probably will. It reminds me how last summer people got on Kobe Bryant for saying his Olympic basketball team could have beaten the Dream Team; while we might not believe that, the competitor needs to have that mentality that they can take on all comers in order to reach the summit of their profession.

While I don't think I'd personally bet on him to beat everyone else in the history of Westeros ever, he deserves to be in the discussion among the legends of the past. Also, the reason his fellow Westerosi don't speak of him in awed terms like Arthur Dayne or Barristan Selmy isn't because his level of skill isn't at or at least near their levels, but because he killed an evil king.

[Nephenee]

Good post as always. Far better reasoning than every other member I've seen here.

Some might deride him for thinking so high of his own skill,

I don't think he thinks that highly of himself, at least not to the degree that it makes him blind to the truth. Jaime does admit things that he doesn't like:

She is stronger than I am.

The realization chilled him. Robert had been stronger than him, to be sure. The White Bull Gerold Hightower as well, in his heyday, and Ser Arthur Dayne. Amongst the living, Greatjon Umber was stronger, Strongboar of Crakehall most likely, both Cleganes for a certainty. The Mountain's strength was like nothing human. It did not matter. With speed and skill, Jaime could beat them all. But this was a woman. A huge cow of a woman, to be sure, but even so . . . by rights, she should be the one wearing down.

So Jaime seems to be very objective when he comes to swordfighting. He might be plain wrong when it comes to Dayne, but this establishes that Jaime is at least an objective source.

[mormont]

I think the meaning of the passage is clear: that Jaime considered himself able, through speed and skill, to defeat physically stronger opponents, including Dayne - and the implication must be, since he undoubtedly had sparred with Dayne and may have fought him in tourneys at some point, that he had in fact beaten Dayne. But that doesn't necessarily mean that Jaime considers himself clearly a superior fighter to Dayne. In the same tier, maybe: physically weaker, but perhaps faster and more skilful.

[The Duke]

Perhaps he was

[MotherAnduin]

nvm

[MRHD]

Good post as always. Far better reasoning than every other member I've seen here.

I don't think he thinks that highly of himself, at least not to the degree that it makes him blind to the truth. Jaime does admit things that he doesn't like:

So Jaime seems to be very objective when he comes to swordfighting. He might be plain wrong when it comes to Dayne, but this establishes that Jaime is at least an objective source.

Thanks. Yeah, I definitely don't think his assessment is off-base, and you're right that he seems to be able to objectively measure swordfighting skill. Which makes sense, since a delusional swordsman who thought over much of his own abilities would likely bite off more than he could chew and get himself killed sooner rather than later.

[MRHD]

Jaime is talking about living people not dead. Not even Jaime is deluded enough to believe he can beat Arthur Dayne.

I'm not so sure he couldn't, if the situation of the battle favored him (as the Selmy quote I posted before shows, it's not really cut and dry who beats who on any given day). GRRM has said in terms of Dayne v. Selmy that Dayne had the advantage if wielding Dawn, but that they would be just about evenly matched if both were using normal swords. I can't imagine Jaime is that much less of a swordsman than Barristan that he wouldn't also stand a fair chance if the weapons playing field was equal.

ETA: One way to think of it is that if they fought a hundred times, how many times do you think each would win? The GRRM quote makes it look like that in Selmy v. Dayne with equal weaponry that each would win roughly fifty times. Jaime would be deluded in thinking he could ever beat Dayne only if Dayne would take all 100 matches. I don't know how many Jaime would take out of 100, but I can't imagine he wouldn't win a respectable number of them.

[Theons missing fingers]

Wasnt it said that Barristan Selmy is one of the best fighters the world has ever seen ?

[BaseBornBastard]

Please..... Dayne would have slew Jaime with his left hand while taking a piss with his right :)

[Ser DeBrun]

I could beat Michael Jordan in basketball.

I could beat him also if I tied his shoe laces together and cuffed his hands behind his back

[Nephenee]

Please..... Dayne would have slew Jaime with his left hand while taking a piss with his right :)

Posts like this make me think that people on this forum just don't understand Jaime.

[Kanali]

I think Jaime is overestimating himself. This was back before his humbling. I honestly don't think he could beat Gregor either.

[Techelles]

Just because Jaime thinks a thought does not mean that it's true.

[Fat Mac]

Quite honestly, he might have been able to. I think Jaime could beat just about anyone if the circumstances were right. That doesn't mean he thinks himself the superior fighter, just that he could beat Arthur Dayne if he needed to. We don't have enough knowledge to confirm or deny this.