R+L=J v. 57

[Mladen]

ah, sorry then, lost in this context seemed to indicate "gone/lost without a trace"

Interesting question indeed, the only (obvious) possibilty I can think of would be the collective of House Dayne, the method of one person (=Lord) deciding would make it susceptible to corruption.

Source

Definitely vague.

I think they decide who the next Sword of the Morning by a family decision or maybe a trial by combat and the Daynes then decide whether they are worthy of wielding Dawn by seeing his good they fight.

Like a public forum? It is a bit weird, because we don't know how exactly one becomes Sword of the Morning. We know what he gets, but how he got there is a bit interesting. Darkstar certainly is capable warrior, and yet he is not Sword of the Morning. Why? It has to be related to something other than prowness in battle...

edit: necessery coloring... :)

[King of Winters]

Like a public forum? It is a bit weird, because we don't know how exactly one becomes Sword of the Morning. We know what he gets, but how he got there is a bit interesting. Darkstar certainly is capable warrior, and yet he is not Sword of the Morning. Why? It has to be related to something other than prowness in battle...

edit: necessery coloring... :)

Someone remembers Darkstar is of the night :D

Maybe the Daynes of Starfall think Darkstar isn't worthy of wielding Dawn. Arianne says something like she didn't believe half the stories of him when she was thinking how fair he looked. So maybe he's done some bad things, and the Daynes don't want him wielding Dawn because of what he's done.

Either way, I think he's going to try and steal Dawn.

And is it me or does your wolf avatar looked squashed?

[Mladen]

Someone remembers Darkstar is of the night :D

Maybe the Daynes of Starfall think Darkstar isn't worthy of wielding Dawn. Arianne says something like she didn't believe half the stories of him when she was thinking how fair he looked. So maybe he's done some bad things, and the Daynes don't want him wielding Dawn because of what he's done.

Either way, I think he's going to try and steal Dawn.

And is it me or does your wolf avatar looked squashed?

Yeap, he is of the night. But I have always been intruiged with Doran's assessment that he is "the most dangerous man in Dorne", not mentioning his behavior. He is annoying but there is something about him that is relatively interesting. I imagine he is right, and that means he is unfit for the Sword of the Morning, but at the time in Starfall is only one Dayne, so is it on Allyria to decide, or is some sort of public forum. It seems to me we are facing Arthurian legend of Excalibur, where only the "chosen one" is fit to wield the sword...

And, as for my avatar, I have been on a diet :)... You are not the only one, I'll try to fix it...

[King of Winters]

Yeap, he is of the night. But I have always been intruiged with Doran's assessment that he is "the most dangerous man in Dorne", not mentioning his behavior. He is annoying but there is something about him that is relatively interesting. I imagine he is right, and that means he is unfit for the Sword of the Morning, but at the time in Starfall is only one Dayne, so is it on Allyria to decide, or is some sort of public forum. It seems to me we are facing Arthurian legend of Excalibur, where only the "chosen one" is fit to wield the sword...

And, as for my avatar, I have been on a diet :)... You are not the only one, I'll try to fix it...

When Doran says Darkstar is "the most dangerous man in Dorne", there could be a number of reasons he is. He could be the best sword in Dorne and is physically dangerous, or (and I was thinking about this yesterday) if Ser Gerold is Oberyn's son, and he knows, then Doran describing him as "the most dangerous man in Dorne" could mean Ser Gerold knows he has a chance at getting the seat of the Martells, and trying to get the "competition" (Arianne, Trystane, Doran) out of the way.

[finger]

I think that Jons destiny is greater than the Iron Throne, but if he is the last Targ. standing, he may adhere to Neds teachings on duty.

I agree. Jon's destiny is tied to the wildlings and the fight against the Others.

Lord Mormont address some thoughts to Sam, in one of his last appearances. He says that the purpose of the NW was defending the realms of men, and, after all, the wilddings were no more than men, even though they live beyond the Wall: this Wall is meant against another, more dangerous foe.

Some clues.

Jon remembered to have travelled the Gift with Ned, who intended to bring people there to protect the North against raiders. This is one of those funny Martin's ironies.

Martin said sort of he thought Jon would die at the Wall.

The sacrifices. Every hero in the story has to pay a high price to get their weapon.

Azor Assai is the paramount: he had to thrust his sword trough Nisa Nisa in order to forge Lighbringer. The real ones didn't choose.

Bran lost his legs to become a greenseer.

Dany lost Drogo to get her dragons.

Did Jon lose Ygritte to get the wildlings? I think so.

I could add some more, but I think this enough to take this bottom line home: many things point to Jon stablishing a wildling lordship south of the Wall.

Of course, he'll have to fight the Others as well.

[SFDanny]

Yes, it would work. Only one thing. It seems that everyone in Westeros know that Ned returned the sword to Ashara, so it must have not been that hodden meeting. I imagine, he and Howland rode for Starfall, surrendered sword to Ashara in public, and after it, they moved back home. So, the highest probability is that Ashara's older brother, Edric's father was still held captive in KL or Trident...

I wasn't suggesting the meeting and the return of Dawn remained hidden. Only that Ned needed to travel disguised through Dorne and into Starfall to get to Ashara first and get her help. Once she is convinced, and has Dawn, she can publicly present Ned to the Lord of Starfall, if he is there. Otherwise we have to square how Ned travelled through many miles of enemy territory unmolested after killing one of its most illustrious citizens. Not to mention he was present at the deaths of Elia, a princess of Dorne, and her children. The Martells would not likely be forgiving, even if we assume the Daynes are predisposed to receive Ned openly.

[Mladen]

I wasn't suggesting the meeting and the return of Dawn remained hidden. Only that Ned needed to travel disguised through Dorne and into Starfall to get to Ashara first and get her help. Once she is convinced, and has Dawn, she can publicly present Ned to the Lord of Starfall, if he is there. Otherwise we have to square how Ned travelled through many miles of enemy territory unmolested after killing one of its most illustrious citizens. Not to mention he was present at the deaths of Elia, a princess of Dorne, and her children. The Martells would not likely be forgiving, even if we assume the Daynes are predisposed to receive Ned openly.

I am not sure, since we were told Ned travelled to Starfall and there gave Ashara a sword. Plus, he wasn't present at the deaths of Elia and her children. He came after everything was done. Elia was dead by the time Ned came to KL. As for how he did travel unmolested, we have to assume that everybody realized who is King by then, and didn't want to cause any more troubles...

[Greymoon]

Jon remembered to have travelled the Gift with Ned, who intended to bring people there to protect the North against raiders. This is one of those funny Martin's ironies.

Martin said sort of he thought Jon would die at the Wall.

I believe Jon remembers Benjen and Ned make plans to re-settled people in Brandon's gift, to act as a 'buffer' zone...Not that he traveled there with Ned.

But otherwise I agree. I also think that Jon's destiny is much more tied to the wildlings than his heritage. The way he handles the wildling shows as much IMO. He arranges for Alys and the Magnar of Thenn to marry. He lets Tormund and his lot cross into the realm after having made the wildings agree to pay a 'blood price'. He takes the sons and means to have them trained at arms. The Norreys and Flints, think this is a good agreement, and not much different from what the Starks used to do, to insure the loyalty of mountain clans. In many ways, through his role in Alys's wedding (he gives her away, plus there some symbolism in the maiden cloak Alys wears) and his role with the wildlings Jon appears as the 'Pater' figure. To the northern lords he might be considered as a conciliator. He embodies in any case a figure of authority - one who settles conflicts, and takes young boys as his wards, to be trained, taught and basically raised by him and men under his command. He promises food and shelter.

I believe Jon's 'stabbing' opens the way for the wildlings to take over the wall and that Jon will become de facto 'King at the Wall' in Stannis's absence, when/if he ever wakes. He may never wear a crown and never wear a title, but he may embody the figure of a ruler. The wildlings will remember that Jon is the only one who made promises to them. I doubt they would ever defer to another figure of authority. Mance Rayder had enough trouble to get them to follow his lead, yet we see wildlings like Borroq and Moria the warrior witch, greet Jon as a brother, or swear loyalty to him, and him alone. Jon is also a warg, and wargs are both feared and revered by wildlings, I seem to remember.

[SFDanny]

I am not sure, since we were told Ned travelled to Starfall and there gave Ashara a sword. Plus, he wasn't present at the deaths of Elia and her children. He came after everything was done. Elia was dead by the time Ned came to KL. As for how he did travel unmolested, we have to assume that everybody realized who is King by then, and didn't want to cause any more troubles...

We are told a soldier's story that is how it happens, by soldiers who are not there. These same soldiers say that Ned killed Ser Arthur in single combat - which we know to be untrue. But assuming, and I think it is safe to assume, Ned first gets Ashara's assistance before revealing himself (alternatively she could have already have been at the tower and travelled with them from that spot, but that has other problems) because we know that the Martells do not yet come to the realization you write about. Not until Jon Arryn travels to Sunspear is Dorne pacified to the new order. The Red Viper is trying to raise Dorne, at this point, to avenge Elia. And, even if we accept your timeline of precisely when Ned arrives during the sack - before or after Elia and her children are killed - it is hardly material to the feelings of the Martells. He was a rebel general present the day Elia dies. He cannot be expected to just waltz through Dorne to Starfall proclaiming his identity along the way.

[Ygrain]

I wasn't suggesting the meeting and the return of Dawn remained hidden. Only that Ned needed to travel disguised through Dorne and into Starfall to get to Ashara first and get her help. Once she is convinced, and has Dawn, she can publicly present Ned to the Lord of Starfall, if he is there. Otherwise we have to square how Ned travelled through many miles of enemy territory unmolested after killing one of its most illustrious citizens. Not to mention he was present at the deaths of Elia, a princess of Dorne, and her children. The Martells would not likely be forgiving, even if we assume the Daynes are predisposed to receive Ned openly.

I do agree that Ned most certainly travelled in disguise but the fact that he killed Arthur Dayne wouldn't have been known yet. Furthermore, the major settlements in Dorne seem to be situated along the coast or rivers, with the rest of the country mosty desert, which would make for whole areas almost unpopulated.

[SFDanny]

I do agree that Ned most certainly travelled in disguise but the fact that he killed Arthur Dayne wouldn't have been known yet.

True, but it also means Ned, assuming Ashara is not with him on the journey, has to not only disguise himself and his companions, but also keep the great sword Dawn hidden throughout the trip. Its possession is tantamount to declaring "I killed Ser Arthur Dayne."

Furthermore, the major settlements in Dorne seem to be situated along the coast or rivers, with the rest of the country mosty desert, which would make for whole areas almost unpopulated.

Again true, but the most probable route from the tower to Starfall is via the Prince's Pass. As one of the two main routes over the Red Mountains it must be expected to have been guarded during a time of war. In short, the journey of Ned to Starfall raises many questions we still need answers for.

[finger]

I'm trying to be a good sport, but it's getting frustrating to have to keep correcting this kind of statement. Edric Dayne does not say where he got the story that he and Jon were milk brothers. Here is the dialogue.

Edric knows Wylla was his wet-nurse. He's confident enough to swear on the honor of his house. And she's still at Starfall. He has this information first hand. He also believes that Wylla is Jon's mother. It's not any kind of secret, since he's surprised Jon never told Arya. It does not say where he learned either of these facts. The logical conclusion is that this was discussed openly around Starfall, including between Wylla and Edric.

You may be confusing the milk brother story with the story about Eddard and Ashara, which is several pages later and where Edric's information may not be as reliable.

I imagine big breasted Wylla as anything a suckling babe might dream of, lol.

My catch is that Wylla was at ToJ when Jon was born or soon after. We can leave aside how and when she arrived there. Since Lyanna died and Jon survived to reach Starfall, we can conclude that someone did feed him.

My guess is that Wylla came from the hereabouts of ToJ, and she was well instructed to tell everyone that Jon was hers. The first look of them in Starfall was Jon clutching happilly some Wylla's breast, so no one had to suspect any else. Then she was was kept at Starfall to make them sure that she wasn't telling stories once she were out of touch,... and because she was a good wetnurse.

[finger]

:lol: I really needed that. You know, certain debates on this board follow Martinian patterns: a dragon biting its own tail, cyclicity of time and all :rolleyes:

ETA 'Emotinception' after reading your last post LOL If I didn't have to go out I'd just sit with a can of pop corn and enjoy ;)

Perfectly summarized.

There's another explanation.

Aegon had been there soon before.

Since the war is lost, they'd decided that Aegon had better flee in disguise. "Disguise" is at odds with "been guarded by the KG", btw.

The 3 KG could have compromised with Ned about Jon. After all, he was his uncle. They could have asked Ned a vow about it, and it would have been surer than leaving it to the result of the fighting. They didn't even try. (There's a paralell with Penrose, who refused to hand Erik Storm to his uncle and his grandfather, who knows why.) Instead the fought and died.

My catch is they weren't protecting Jon's live, but Aegon's escape

[Twinslayer]

May I suggest a different scenario? When Ned travels to Starfall Dorne is still, in all probability, at war with the rebels who have seized the Iron Throne. It is quite likely he and whoever travels with him do so in disguise and don't reveal themselves until they reach the one person they think may at least listen to their story before imprisoning or killing the lot of them. That one person is Ashara - regardless if the lord of Starfall is in the castle when Ned arrives.

What do you think of the possibility that Ned fought against and subdued Starfall before going to the TOJ?

Ran has floated the tantalizing idea that Jon was not actually in the TOJ when Ned arrived there -- that he was moved away before Ned arrived because Lyanna was sick and they did not want the baby infected. See post #46 in this thread:

http://asoiaf.wester...ve/page__st__40

That would open up some interesting possibilities. For one thing, Ned says that when he left KL after the Sack, he went to fight the last battles of the war. The only battle we know Ned was in after the Sack was at the TOJ. Perhaps one of Ned's post-Sack "battles" was at Starfall?

This would also tie in with the fact that "they" found Ned after Lyanna died. "They" would be Howland and the rest of Ned's troops.

The sequence would be: after lifting the siege of Storm's End, Ned led his troops into Dorne. The first stop was Starfall. Ned fought, won, and occupied the castle. Lord Dayne bent the knee and Ned found out about Jon from Ashara. She told him Lyanna was ill and gave him directions to the TOJ. He headed off with his 6 companions so he could move quickly, but with troops marching along behind because he is traveling through hostile territory. He fought his way through the 3 KG to get to Lyanna and went to see her while Howland went to collect the rest of the troops. He had some time with Lyanna before she died, maybe even a couple of days. She dies, the troops arrive, and Howland takes Lyanna's hand out of Ned's. The troops help Ned and Howland tear down the TOJ and use the bloody stones to make cairns. The troops know Arthur Dayne is dead and Ned is alive and they start the rumour that Ned killed Arthur in single combat. The troops don't know about Jon because he is not there. He's being kept hidden at Starfall. Ned goes back to Starfall to return Dawn and collect Jon. Ned's troops see Ned leaving Ashara's chamber with a baby and start the rumour that Ned and Ashara are Jon's parents.

[finger]

Maybe it was simply because she thought her child would have better prospects raised as her parents legitimate daughter, and thought she might be a burden to her future.

This is the reason many give up their children for adoption and take a separate path.

In a true story, the actor Jack Nicholson was raised thinking his grandparents were actually his parents when in reality, his "sister" was his mother.

Ashara fled with Aegon.

As it has just been proved, it'd have been considered very strange her killing herself having a child to take care of. So, her own daughter had to pass as her sister in order to make her fake suicide credible.

Btw, how many years older is Arthur than Allyria? And Edric's father? Are we told of more than one Lady Dayne? If there's only one, how long has she been fertile? Strange, too.

[finger]

Entire theory sounds a bit stretchy in my opinion. We don't know exact age of Allyria, and that is number one problem here. Then, of course, there is the misinformation Edric said to Arya. As a girl she had to be back then, and I doubt she was more than 10, Allyria also isn't someone who would know the real story. So, most likely she said what she was told by her elder brother, Edric's father, or even the lie Ashara planted as true as a cover-up story for Jon. Then of course, we have to wonder where the hell was Edric's father at the time. He was oldest, if I remember correctly, and somehow Ned was returning the Dawn to Ashara, not him. Is there a possibility Edric's father had a role in all the conundrum surrounding ToJ and Starfall. And most importantly, how he died (if he died at the first place)? So, yes, it isn't beyond any possibility for the theory to be possible, it's just that I find it unlikely...

Well, yes, Domeric would be born somewhere in 282,83? Can you just imagine the irony of Brandon giving his son to his BFF - Roose? :)

He could be hiding with Aegon, or have been taken captive at the Trident, or... The good thing with literature is you can invent anything.

Eta: ninja'd. Forget about it.

[Ygrain]

What do you think of the possibility that Ned fought against and subdued Starfall before going to the TOJ?

Ran has floated the tantalizing idea that Jon was not actually in the TOJ when Ned arrived there -- that he was moved away before Ned arrived because Lyanna was sick and they did not want the baby infected. See post #46 in this thread:

http://asoiaf.wester...ve/page__st__40

That would open up some interesting possibilities. For one thing, Ned says that when he left KL after the Sack, he went to fight the last battles of the war. The only battle we know Ned was in after the Sack was at the TOJ. Perhaps one of Ned's post-Sack "battles" was at Starfall?

This would also tie in with the fact that "they" found Ned after Lyanna died. "They" would be Howland and the rest of Ned's troops.

The sequence would be: after lifting the siege of Storm's End, Ned led his troops into Dorne. The first stop was Starfall. Ned fought, won, and occupied the castle. Lord Dayne bent the knee and Ned found out about Jon from Ashara. She told him Lyanna was ill and gave him directions to the TOJ. He headed off with his 6 companions so he could move quickly, but with troops marching along behind because he is traveling through hostile territory. He fought his way through the 3 KG to get to Lyanna and went to see her while Howland went to collect the rest of the troops. He had some time with Lyanna before she died, maybe even a couple of days. She dies, the troops arrive, and Howland takes Lyanna's hand out of Ned's. The troops help Ned and Howland tear down the TOJ and use the bloody stones to make cairns. The troops know Arthur Dayne is dead and Ned is alive and they start the rumour that Ned killed Arthur in single combat. The troops don't know about Jon because he is not there. He's being kept hidden at Starfall. Ned goes back to Starfall to return Dawn and collect Jon. Ned's troops see Ned leaving Ashara's chamber with a baby and start the rumour that Ned and Ashara are Jon's parents.

IIRC, Starfall and Storms' End are the width of the continent away. Definitely not the "first" stop.

Ran's hypothesis is consistent with one I've proposed myself: that Jon was moved away but the KG stayed behind to protect him by not giving away his existence by their presence, as well as preventing anyone from fidning out that Lyanna had given birth. However, I don't think that medieval or fictional mindset is as foreign as Ran presents it, I've done my share of both literary analysis as well as role-playing and have been able to grasp a fairly wide scale of behaviours, and I doubt I'm the only one here.

Lastly, we do not have any mention of Ned's men gossiping about where Jon came from. We know from Cat's PoV what the gossip was:

They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys’s Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur’s sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes.

Not a word of Jon coming from Starfall.

[Mladen]

He could be hiding with Aegon, or have been taken captive at the Trident, or... The good thing with literature is you can invent anything.

The thing about good literature is inventing things that make logical sense to previously written things. Taken captive at Trident makes sense, but hiding with Aegon, none. It contradicts timeline, no explanation, nothing goes in that direction...

[finger]

I think something happened that we don't know about, about Ser Arthur Dayne. I'm not saying he's still alive but there's a reason they don't hold any grudge against Ned.

They let him go after fighting their Sword of the Morning, and call Edric "Ned", which is a well known Eddard nickname?

:agree: :agree:

[finger]

I wasn't suggesting the meeting and the return of Dawn remained hidden. Only that Ned needed to travel disguised through Dorne and into Starfall to get to Ashara first and get her help. Once she is convinced, and has Dawn, she can publicly present Ned to the Lord of Starfall, if he is there. Otherwise we have to square how Ned travelled through many miles of enemy territory unmolested after killing one of its most illustrious citizens. Not to mention he was present at the deaths of Elia, a princess of Dorne, and her children. The Martells would not likely be forgiving, even if we assume the Daynes are predisposed to receive Ned openly.

I think there's a link between Daynes and Starks, al least since HH, where Ashara "looked to Stark".

No one has considered a friendship between Ashara and Lyanna. They were of an age, I think.