Daenerys in Slaver's bay is to show us that.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

I find the Meereenese Knot a complicated storyline that GRRM handled quite fine. Daenerys needed it, the audience needed it, and perhaps the plot needed it. Point is, Daenerys needed growth in order to become a leader. She needed to see for herself the difficulties in ruling, how It is complicated to do so in any given way. She needed to mature. She made a decision when she decided to stay in Meereen and rule, and I applaud her for that. She didn't made the best choices, but she tried. As a person, she's allowed to make mistakes. Every character has made them.

[Rod123]

Dany was never a Mary Sue. No one in this series is a Mary Sue. The next time i see Mary Sue flung around at a character in this series, im going to pull a Sansa and rip off the heads of the dolls of small children.

Wont someone please think of the dolls!

Of course there are not because GRRM doesnt feels like getting inside his books, however you cant deny that Daenerys actions is the epitome of how a Mary Sue acts, a character that feels out of place, does everything right and everything works out in the end.

The mockery is the fact that despite she does everything right, the things dont work out as expected as if she had acted like a normal person.

[Rod123]

I find the Meereenese Knot a complicated storyline that GRRM handled quite fine. Daenerys needed it, the audience needed it, and perhaps the plot needed it. Point is, Daenerys needed growth in order to become a leader. She needed to see for herself the difficulties in ruling, how It is complicated to do so in any given way. She needed to mature. She made a decision when she decided to stay in Meereen and rule, and I applaud her for that. She didn't made the best choices, but she tried. As a person, she's allowed to make mistakes. Every character has made them.

She didnt learned from her mistakes, she only got a Deus Ex Machina that will make all the screw up that was the liberation of slaves go away.

She would still not figure out how to deal with the sons of the harpy, she still couldnt reconcile with foreign powers, she still lacks the political and military skills or guts to defend against an invading force.

It goes from "everything is so screwed up, Meereen is doomed" to "DRAGONS BIATCHES!!!! DRACARYS UP YO ASS".

[Newstar]

She made a decision when she decided to stay in Meereen and rule, and I applaud her for that. She didn't made the best choices, but she tried.

I'm irresistibly reminded of that hilarious Daniel Radcliffe skit from SNL, where he defends himself after a hilariously inept demonstration of simultaneous Chinese calligraphy and Irish step dancing: "I tried, and therefore no one should criticize me."

[Rod123]

I find the Meereenese Knot a complicated storyline that GRRM handled quite fine. Daenerys needed it, the audience needed it, and perhaps the plot needed it. Point is, Daenerys needed growth in order to become a leader. She needed to see for herself the difficulties in ruling, how It is complicated to do so in any given way. She needed to mature. She made a decision when she decided to stay in Meereen and rule, and I applaud her for that. She didn't made the best choices, but she tried. As a person, she's allowed to make mistakes. Every character has made them.

Except other characters mistakes usually make them dead or worse.

She only had to deal with the death of thousands nameless characters.

[TheMysteriousOne]

Dany's problem is that she is, IMO, a good person, but she wants to be a conqueror, and conquerors have to perform controversial, and sometimes cruel acts, in order to achieve their goals. She's done some very noble and altruistic things, and she's done some very terrible things, but she's spent far too much time trying to justify her actions, and as a result, she's made herself a hypocrite, but she needs to own up to the fact that she has to do some very hard things and perform questionable acts, in order to be successful. She needs to find balance; between being a dragon-wielding conqueror and a 'nurturing' mother.

[The Don Dadda]

Dany was never a Mary Sue. No one in this series is a Mary Sue. The next time i see Mary Sue flung around at a character in this series, im going to pull a Sansa and rip off the heads of the dolls of small children.

Wont someone please think of the dolls children!

This

[illrede]

Oh that's perfectly OK then.

And I thought giving the order to torture two innocent females who might well be children (if she bothered to check) was inherently horrible.

Yeah, being in a fit of anger is perfectly reasonable grounds for diminished responsibility in this instance.

It's a non-issue. It shows that she's hot iron (and that her anger uses her, she doesn't use her anger), but we knew that. I can see characters that are pretty moral and deliberate all around ordering the same without having to feel angry and betrayed. I can also see them not. It isn't crime, it's tactics. She deliberated with feelings what could have been rejected or arrived at through calculation; the adviser she values most is her own feelings, nothing else comes close. So if it was a rotten decision or not is pretty much luck. "Daenerys has a horrible decision-making process" is something a lot of people can agree on, as opposed to "Daenerys is horrible".

[Florina Laufeyson]

Of course there are not because GRRM doesnt feels like getting inside his books, however you cant deny that Daenerys actions is the epitome of how a Mary Sue acts, a character that feels out of place, does everything right and everything works out in the end.

The mockery is the fact that despite she does everything right, the things dont work out as expected as if she had acted like a normal person.

No. A Mary Sue is someone who absolutely does no wrong whatsoever in regards to the plot and universe of a story. A Sue is never called out on their crap. Ever. Villains and protagonists alike love Mary Sue. If a villain is against Mary Sue, its because of jealousy or some other very thin reason. Mary Sue has no real flaws. Mary Sue has features or abilities that are not commonly found in the story's universe.

Dany does not fit this criteria. Targaryens arent exactly something that never happens in Planetos. She does not have rare abilities. Her features are not totally uncommon since there are even plain ol' Lyseni with similar features. (and Daynes have purple eyes too) Plenty of people in-universe hate her. She is called out all the time for her actions. Dany isnt even a deconstruction of the Mary Sue archetype. There is nothing to mock. Dany does not do everything right. Hell, everything explodes in her face, including her dragons. Dany is a deconstruction of a common fantasy archetype of the Lost Princess Virtuous Leader. Not Mary Sue.

Not even Rhaegar is a Mary Sue. (the biggest taint on him besides the Lyanna business is that he ends up causing a war and then ends up joining it on his father's side. Which contradicts his plan of removing Aerys from power.)

[Rhymes with Weak]

This all matters little; All the characters we currently know and love are going to die before this is all over. Except Stannis, he will simply ascend to godhood.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

Dany's problem is that she is, IMO, a good person, but she wants to be a conqueror, and conquerors have to perform controversial, and sometimes cruel acts, in order to achieve their goals. She's done some very noble and altruistic things, and she's done some very terrible things, but she's spent far too much time trying to justify her actions, and as a result, she's made herself a hypocrite, but she needs to own up to the fact that she has to do some very hard things and perform questionable acts, in order to be successful. She needs to find balance; between being a dragon-wielding conqueror and a 'nurturing' mother.

:agree: If she can't find balance she needs to decide between conqueror or mother and really go for it.

At the same time, posters tend to be inconsistent in their critiques. They criticize her for being too brutal, they criticize her for being too soft.

Also, Florina is right about Dany never being a Mary Sue. There are a few show fans who think otherwise, I'm sure, but I think she's supposed to be controversial. I don't know if there's a SSM about this.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

I'm irresistibly reminded of that hilarious Daniel Radcliffe skit from SNL, where he defends himself after a hilariously inept demonstration of simultaneous Chinese calligraphy and Irish step dancing: "I tried, and therefore no one should criticize me."

That's a good one. Concerning her, she did try, but things didn't work out. She should learn from her mistakes. If she didn't, then there's nothing her character can do from now on than to be a Conqueror. Daenerys is, like some said, the character that makes the line "Hell is paved with good intentions." Her cause is noble, but she doesn't know how to approach it.

She didnt learned from her mistakes, she only got a Deus Ex Machina that will make all the screw up that was the liberation of slaves go away.

She would still not figure out how to deal with the sons of the harpy, she still couldnt reconcile with foreign powers, she still lacks the political and military skills or guts to defend against an invading force.

It goes from "everything is so screwed up, Meereen is doomed" to "DRAGONS BIATCHES!!!! DRACARYS UP YO ASS".

I don't know. I haven't read TWOW to know in what direction her character will go to. I don't agree that Drogon appearing as a Deus Ex Machina. He had already been established in the story, he can't be one. I think Daenerys has a long way to go until she can be a Queen, but there's a lot she can learn. If she is willing, that's another question entirely.

[The Don Dadda]

Of course there are not because GRRM doesnt feels like getting inside his books, however you cant deny that Daenerys actions is the epitome of how a Mary Sue acts, a character that feels out of place, does everything right and everything works out in the end.

The mockery is the fact that despite she does everything right, the things dont work out as expected as if she had acted like a normal person.

No offence but this really does not make any sense. Your first statement directly contradicts your second statement. 'Everything works out in the end' but 'things don't work out as expected'. Do you know where the term Mary Sue comes from? Its not just a character who is fortuitous or who has things work out in their favour. A Mary Sue is a character that is basically a way of an author living out his or her fantasy through his/her writing.

[illrede]

At the same time, posters tend to be inconsistent in their critiques. They criticize her for being too brutal, they criticize her for being too soft.

They're criticizing her for inconsistency. Either one is better than vacillating.

[Djinn]

Daenerys on Slaver's Bay is to show us that:

-GRRM like to make up complicated names.

-How does the happily ever after of fantasy work in a realistic context.

-Messianic figures rarely live up to their ideals.

-It hard to win a war, but it's much harder to win the peace.

-Close examination of how rulership is affected by economics and culture.

-Daenerys and Robert have more in common that they would like to believe.

Tywin is, to me, the example that skills for a job have no relation with ethics or morals.

Daenerys still has evil feet.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

It seemed in her last ADWD chapter, that she has learned her lesson. She denied her dragonosity by shutting away her dragons and attempting to become a run of the mill administrator. She failed. Now she remembers who she is. The dragon. We'll see how it works out. It could go either way.

[mushroomshirt]

I had to look it up (since there is so much discussion about it I thought I would share):

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue

OP, not sure if you agree with this definition? Comparing ASOIAF and GRRM to a fanfic trope doesn't hold much water for me.

[illrede]

It seemed in her last ADWD chapter, that she has learned her lesson. She denied her dragonosity by shutting away her dragons and attempting to become a run of the mill administrator. She failed. Now she remembers who she is. The dragon. We'll see how it works out. It could go either way.

Did she learn the right lesson though? She could end up blaming her problems on compassion. That wasn't it.

[Pod The Impaler]

I had a Tywin is a good character thread locked because i said that according to the times, he was a good ruler, GRRM even points out that 20 years of Tywin means peace and prosperity for 20 years and that he only went awry when Joanna died and when Aerys went against him.

If you want to judge characters on modern morality you end up with Daenerys blunders in Slavers bay.

I suppose we cannot judge it all on modern standards, but ancient / medieval stands does not mean no standards. The big stuff doesn't really change - the kind of things Tywin did have been considered over the line for ages. It is only being able to get away with it (by being backed by weath and an army) that kept the man from experiencing some brutal payback. What he did to Tyrion and Tysha alone justifies his death - not just by modern standards, but any really. Put that one into the ancient Greek mythos, and you still get a man who offends the gods with his actions meets an ugly end.

Who knows what Tywin might have been like has his wife not died, but he already seemed like a pretty severe fellow before then (Castamere, his father's mistress, etc.). This arttitude may have been what brought him to Aerys' attention in the first place - a man who would punish people the way Aerys would himself. I bet that if Joanna was around, her children would probably no be so messed up - especially Tyrion.

[Rod123]

No. A Mary Sue is someone who absolutely does no wrong whatsoever in regards to the plot and universe of a story. A Sue is never called out on their crap. Ever. Villains and protagonists alike love Mary Sue. If a villain is against Mary Sue, its because of jealousy or some other very thin reason. Mary Sue has no real flaws. Mary Sue has features or abilities that are not commonly found in the story's universe.

Dany does not fit this criteria. Targaryens arent exactly something that never happens in Planetos. She does not have rare abilities. Her features are not totally uncommon since there are even plain ol' Lyseni with similar features. (and Daynes have purple eyes too) Plenty of people in-universe hate her. She is called out all the time for her actions. Dany isnt even a deconstruction of the Mary Sue archetype. There is nothing to mock. Dany does not do everything right. Hell, everything explodes in her face, including her dragons. Dany is a deconstruction of a common fantasy archetype of the Lost Princess Virtuous Leader. Not Mary Sue.

Not even Rhaegar is a Mary Sue. (the biggest taint on him besides the Lyanna business is that he ends up causing a war and then ends up joining it on his father's side. Which contradicts his plan of removing Aerys from power.)

I said a mockery not a Mary sue yet...

-Targaryens are extinct, only Daenerys remained

-Dragons are rare abilities.

-She is exceptionally beautiful

And more of all, its not her persona, but her moral values that are off, there is no one that thinks like Dany, her moral values are not even bleedy liberal for the time, they simply dont exist.