Aenys I's Wife: A Stark?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Just as Quentyn might have had a shot, but his chances were not that good. He had not that much Targaryen blood and he was not all that confident that he could pull it off.

What's interesting about this is that Quentyn doesn't have that much less "Targaryen blood" than Dany, depending on how many Martell generations there have been since the first Daenerys went down there.

I can get on board with the idea that a lot of dragon-riding is psychological and can be influenced by fear, nerve, whatever. But I'm still iffy on the idea of Valyrian blood being absolutely necessary.

[maidenandwarrior]

Loved your post! I didn't notice the dragonflies reference. There is a lot of hinting going on the show, I know. During the Hand's tourney she wears a gown with pale blue roses. But I missed the dragonflies reference. I guess I should watch more closely.

I had to enlarge pic to see the dragonfly. But there it is! You are very observant!

About the flight reference in Sansa's arc, I've noticed it twice - once when she watches the falcon and wishes she could fly. The other time when she builds the snow castle - it's reminiscent of Adara (in Ice Dragon) building a snow castle before she flies on her dragon.

Thanks! I actually noticed this on a rewatch, and then googled it...only to discover that lots of other people had already noticed. :blushing: Though, to be fair, I think I have a different interpretation than most people. The majority of the posts about it claim that it means that Sansa is going to pull a Duncan, Prince of the Dragonflies, thing and give up her throne to marry Sandor Clegane? I am really approaching it from a much more simplistic view in that I simply think it means she will get one of the dragons. Remember too there is a lot of bird imagery with her as well. The Hound always calls her "little bird" and Cersei calls her "dove."

I can get on board with the idea that a lot of dragon-riding is psychological and can be influenced by fear, nerve, whatever. But I'm still iffy on the idea of Valyrian blood being absolutely necessary.

You know, I think one of the reasons this is so confusing for all of us is that --ducking now from the projectiles about to be thrown at my head-- I don't think we have actually seen a rider bond with their dragon yet. Yep, I am saying it. I don't think Dany is a dragonrider. I think she is simply their mother, and has a psychological imprint or whatever with them, which allows her some leeway when it comes to being near them.

She had next to no control over Drogon, and call me crazy, but I think it would be worse to have an uncontrolled dragon in a battle than no dragon at all.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

You know, I think one of the reasons this is so confusing for all of us is that --ducking now from the projectiles about to be thrown at my head-- I don't think we have actually seen a rider bond with their dragon yet. Yep, I am saying it. I don't think Dany is a dragonrider. I think she is simply their mother, and has a psychological imprint or whatever with them, which allows her some leeway when it comes to being near them.

She had next to no control over Drogon, and call me crazy, but I think it would be worse to have an uncontrolled dragon in a battle than no dragon at all.

I think this is fair under the circumstances. Whether she may eventually be a dragonrider, she doesn't seem like one now.

[Ghost's Shadow]

I'm happy to see that something hasn't been mentioned yet, so I'll do it myself, reluctant as I am...

Some people wish to call Dany a warg (skinchanger), so does having a Stark ancestor mean she might have some of it in her?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm happy to see that something hasn't been mentioned yet, so I'll do it myself, reluctant as I am...

Some people wish to call Dany a warg (skinchanger), so does having a Stark ancestor mean she might have some of it in her?

I'd be more inclined to call Dany a skinchanger if she ever even once demonstrated something that was actually akin to skinchanging.

I also don't think there's "some of it" at all. You're either one or you're not. And she's not.

[Frey family reunion]

Perhaps a clue lies in the wiki description, which in turn comes from Martin's description to Amok:

First Alysanne:

According to semi-canon sources, Alysanne was slim of waist and small of breast, with a long neck, a fair complexion and a high forehead. She was tall and straight, unbowed by time. She had clear, blue eyes and high cheekbones. In old age her hair turned white as snow. She wore it in a bun, pulled back and pinned behind her ears. Age left crow's feet around her eyes and laugh lines about her mouth, but her face never lost its strength. She often wore a slimmer, more feminine version of her brother-husband's crown at court.

Jaehaerys:

According to a semi-canon source, Jaehaerys looked wise and dignified even into his later years, with a long white, flowing beard. Not a warrior, his crown was a simple gold band with seven different colored stones inset

Alysanne's blue eyes and Jaehaerys choice of crown (yes I know part of this was to stop the war with the faith) might imply that mom was one of the Andal houses. Of course Martin may be sneaking in some sly northern references with Alysanne's description: hair white as snow and crow's feet around her eyes.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I actually always took the seven-stones crown to be a nod toward him ending the conflict with the Faith. The Targaryens converted to the Seven anyway, so wearing the crown wouldn't necessarily be a nod to some cultural heritage that wasn't already there.

[Frey family reunion]

Her name, Alysanne might also be a clue. Perhaps named after Alyssa Arryn of Alyssa's Tears fame from the Vale. Another indication she and her brother may be half Andal, perhaps from House Arryn.

[PatrickStormborn]

She had next to no control over Drogon, and call me crazy, but I think it would be worse to have an uncontrolled dragon in a battle than no dragon at all.

When was the last time you read her last ADwD chapter? Because she has quite clearly bonded with him (her ADwD arc would be a bit of a waste of time if she didn't). He responds to her call, shares his food with her, and goes where she wants to go. The only reason he doesn't take her back to Meereen is because ~she doesn't belong there~ fantasy cliche etc.

Drogon bent before her. He took her back to his home. He came to her when she called. He followed the Dothraki on her behalf. If that's not bonding... what is??

[PatrickStormborn]

I think this is fair under the circumstances. Whether she may eventually be a dragonrider, she doesn't seem like one now.

This is a joke, right? How can she not be a "dragonrider"? The clue is in the word, lmao...

[Florina Laufeyson]

Dany has only begun to bond with Drogon in the same way as her ancestors have. I highly disagree that she isnt a rider. Cuz lol wat. Its just that now that its just the two of them, the bond is growing more than it has otherwise. Drogon was always fated to her creature. But the implications are that a Targaryen/Rider can only bond with ONE dragon. So Rhaegal and Viserion are up for grabs. Drogon is not.

The bond appears to be similar to the Stark's bond with the direwolves. Only missing the warging part. So it seems all was really needed for Drogon and Dany to bond was time together. Serious. Alone. Time. She still needs to get some things right, like gaining better control of him, but i think we will see more of this in the next book(s). Shes not ready just yet to do what she wants with Drogon.

As for the topic at hand, that is very interesting. Jaehaerys and Alysanne's notions with the North would make sense if there was some link to it in their bloodline.

[PatrickStormborn]

Dany has only begun to bond with Drogon in the same way as her ancestors have. I highly disagree that she isnt a rider. Cuz lol wat. Its just that now that its just the two of them, the bond is growing more than it has otherwise. Drogon was always fated to her creature. But the implications are that a Targaryen/Rider can only bond with ONE dragon. So Rhaegal and Viserion are up for grabs. Drogon is not.

The bond appears to be similar to the Stark's bond with the direwolves. Only missing the warging part. So it seems all was really needed for Drogon and Dany to bond was time together. Serious. Alone. Time. She still needs to get some things right, like gaining better control of him, but i think we will see more of this in the next book(s). Shes not ready just yet to do what she wants with Drogon.

As for the topic at hand, that is very interesting. Jaehaerys and Alysanne's notions with the North would make sense if there was some link to it in their bloodline.

Agreed. Clearly Drogon will never 100% obey Daenerys - he is, after all, the most wild of the three dragons. But that doesn't mean they're not bonded, and it certainly doesn't mean she's not a dragonrider! What has she been doing all the times she's been riding Drogon... hallucinating? :P

The impression I get is that Drogon will follow and obey Daenerys... but only when they're both in unison, hence why he'll take her to the Dothraki after her epiphany in the Dothraki Sea, but he won't take her back to Meereen.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Agreed. Clearly Drogon will never 100% obey Daenerys - he is, after all, the most wild of the three dragons. But that doesn't mean they're not bonded, and it certainly doesn't mean she's not a dragonrider! What has she been doing all the times she's been riding Drogon... hallucinating? :P

The impression I get is that Drogon will follow and obey Daenerys... but only when they're both in unison, hence why he'll take her to the Dothraki after her epiphany in the Dothraki Sea, but he won't take her back to Meereen.

Stop that! By this rate, the seventh hell will be frozen over if we agree too often! :P

I also agree *gasp* that Dany will not go to Meereen. But this isnt the right topic to discuss that. ;)

What i want to know is that if Aenys I's wife was a Stark, than do their direct descendants have any First Men weirdness? (think Bloodraven and his spookery) It would explain Jaehaerys and Alysanne and....the weirdness surrounding how the direwolves in the North seemed to have vanished on that side of the Wall..

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Dany has only begun to bond with Drogon in the same way as her ancestors have. I highly disagree that she isnt a rider. Cuz lol wat. Its just that now that its just the two of them, the bond is growing more than it has otherwise. Drogon was always fated to her creature. But the implications are that a Targaryen/Rider can only bond with ONE dragon. So Rhaegal and Viserion are up for grabs. Drogon is not.

The bond appears to be similar to the Stark's bond with the direwolves. Only missing the warging part. So it seems all was really needed for Drogon and Dany to bond was time together. Serious. Alone. Time. She still needs to get some things right, like gaining better control of him, but i think we will see more of this in the next book(s). Shes not ready just yet to do what she wants with Drogon.

As for the topic at hand, that is very interesting. Jaehaerys and Alysanne's notions with the North would make sense if there was some link to it in their bloodline.

I think she can become one, but isn't one yet. Hanging on while the thing does its own thing does not make you a dragonrider. :P

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Her name, Alysanne might also be a clue. Perhaps named after Alyssa Arryn of Alyssa's Tears fame from the Vale. Another indication she and her brother may be half Andal, perhaps from House Arryn.

There's also Alysane Mormont. As in, maybe Alysan(n)e is really a northern name.

[PatrickStormborn]

Dany rides Drogon multiple times after the events at Daznak's Pit. The final time we see her riding Drogon, she is very clearly directing him. To reduce it to "hanging on while the thing does its own thing" is... questionable. It's not like she just fell on top of him and clung to him while he flew around; he submitted to her, and she rode him multiple times.

I literally don't understand how this argument can even be taking place. She rides Drogon. Therefore she is a dragonrider, as she is a rider of a dragon. It's literally that simple. There is not a distinction between a rider of a dragon and a dragonrider.

Whether or not she has bonded with Drogon is another subject entirely, but all the evidence seems to suggest she has - he submits to her, he allows her to ride him and direct him, he shares his kill with her, etc.

[maidenandwarrior]

Dany rides Drogon multiple times after the events at Daznak's Pit. The final time we see her riding Drogon, she is very clearly directing him. To reduce it to "hanging on while the thing does its own thing" is... questionable. It's not like she just fell on top of him and clung to him while he flew around; he submitted to her, and she rode him multiple times.

I literally don't understand how this argument can even be taking place. She rides Drogon. Therefore she is a dragonrider, as she is a rider of a dragon. It's literally that simple. There is not a distinction between a rider of a dragon and a dragonrider.

Whether or not she has bonded with Drogon is another subject entirely, but all the evidence seems to suggest she has - he submits to her, he allows her to ride him and direct him, he shares his kill with her, etc.

Yes, of course she is a dragon rider...that's why even with a whip she couldn't control him. That's why each time she climbs on his back, she can't direct him in any shape or form.

Sorry, I get that you are a Dany supporter, but wanting her to be a dragonrider does not make her one. The original Targ dragonriders could get their mounts to obey them. If she gets that horn and manages to get one of the dragons under control that way, fine. But as of right now, she does not have control of any dragons beyond basic imprinting, not natural control nor magical control.

Also, I just looked, and he doesn't share anything with her. Dany is forced to eat his leavings. That is not the same thing in any way.

[maidenandwarrior]

There's also Alysane Mormont. As in, maybe Alysan(n)e is really a northern name.

I've always wondered where the name Sansa came from...

[JonathanTheBold]

Weird, I was taught that genetics were based on randomness and probabilities...

Someone taught you that genes are selectively racist? Yikes!

Also

Link?

Genes aren't random unless you cout mutations which can be but generally it's half the mothers genes half the fathers genes with dominate genes winning out over recessive most of the time not always but it's far from random

[Frey family reunion]

There's also Alysane Mormont. As in, maybe Alysan(n)e is really a northern name.

Since Alyssa Arryn is a legend thousands of years old, then I would assume that this is the original source for the name's (or similar names) popularity in Westeros. However, because of Alysanne Targaryen's significant presence in the North, Alysane Mormont was probably named after her. Thus, I doubt it was a northern name until after Alysanne Targaryen made her trip up north.

I just believe that combining her eye color with a name so similar to a legendary Andal, I think it is more probable anyway that her mother was an Andal. It might also explain Maegor's decision to take the throne instead of allowing it to pass to his brother's son, especially if Maegor wasn't too keen on the Faith.