Aenys I's Wife: A Stark?

[Frey family reunion]

Well, Aegon and his sisters adopted the Faith when they landed. What Aenys and Maegor had trouble with were the military formations of the Faith. Jaehaerys was one of my favorite Targs, don't get me wrong, but it seems like the hostilities were on their way to ending when he became King, and he just took advantage and credit for it. He was then smart and appointed a Septon as his Hand. It is hard to say that he is hostile to the Faith if a Septon is his closest councilor.

I'm not saying Jaehaerys was hostile to the faith, just the opposite. I just think it more likely that the reason he adopted it wholeheartedly is that he may have had parent of the Faith.

I don't think we have ever seen any evidence that the Faith is hostile to the old gods. They seem to live in concert with each other. There might be some derision from the Faith, but I can't remember any out right hatred. There is no reason that Alysanne and Jaehaerys couldn't have kept the Old Gods and New, like the current Stark generation, save Jon.

thousands of heart trees may beg to differ.

Thinking on it, there is another oddity that points to a Northern union.

The Red Keep was not built at that point, so they (Aenys and his wife) lived at Dragonstone. Why does Dragonstone have a godswood until Stannis burned it? Dragonstone was a Valyrian outpost, not a Andal one. There would have been no reason to plant a godswood as all the southron houses tried to do. Did Aenys plant it for his wife?

I don't think Aegon's garden is a godswood, it is a garden that existed at least back to Aegon the Conqueror. And I could be mistaken but I thought the Red Keep was finished under Maegor's reign.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The Red Keep was not built at that point, so they (Aenys and his wife) lived at Dragonstone. Why does Dragonstone have a godswood until Stannis burned it? Dragonstone was a Valyrian outpost, not a Andal one. There would have been no reason to plant a godswood as all the southron houses tried to do. Did Aenys plant it for his wife?

I gotta say, this is a pretty sweet observation. Just about every godswood on the continent can be explained as a throwback to the First Men, before the Andals came to power. But in theory the Targaryens would have right from their Valyrian gods to the Seven, and this would have been long after the Andals came to power. So why would there have to be a godswood on Dragonstone, a volcanic rock of an island?

ETA: I'm actually rereading it a bit and it does look like FFR might be right about it just being a garden.

I don't think Aegon's garden is a godswood, it is a garden that existed at least back to Aegon the Conqueror. And I could be mistaken but I thought the Red Keep was finished under Maegor's reign.

Maegor who was king after Aenys and after Aenys would have married whoever it was he married.

[Frey family reunion]

Maegor who was king after Aenys and after Aenys would have married whoever it was he married.

I always get that order of succession mixed up.

[Dr. Pepper]

I'm not saying Jaehaerys was hostile to the faith, just the opposite. I just think it more likely that the reason he adopted it wholeheartedly is that he may have had parent of the Faith.

I don't think anyone is denying that Jaehaerys had a parent of the faith. The presumption is that Aenys was of the faith since his parents had converted. There is nothing unusual about a child of parents with two different faiths choosing one or the other. It was also very helpful to be an ardent supporter of the Faith as being an adherent likely would have helped squash the Uprising.

thousands of heart trees may beg to differ.

Yes, thousands of years ago.

I don't think Aegon's garden is a godswood, it is a garden that existed at least back to Aegon the Conqueror. And I could be mistaken but I thought the Red Keep was finished under Maegor's reign.

Maegor was king after Aenys I. Then came Jaehaerys. Aenys would have been already married by the time Maegor became king and finished Red Keep.

[maidenandwarrior]

thousands of heart trees may beg to differ.

Lol, I meant in the current timeline and in the last three hundred years.

Going to go look up the Dragonstone stuff now.

ETA: Yep, this was my bad. I was confusing the one that Melisandre burnt at Storm's End for Dragonstone.

[Roadside Rose]

Well the recent review of The Princess and the Queen stated that a sub-plot of the novella involves a search for "dragonseeds", because both sides need riders for their dragons, and only those with Targaryen blood can bond with their dragons.

Of course this could simply be a mistake from the reviewer, but it fits with the dragons liking Brown Ben Plumm and explains the Valyrian custom of incest. It's also possible that the Targaryens are lying about needing Targaryen blood to bond with a dragon... but in that case, why would Alicent Hightower not try and ride a dragon, or give a dragon to one of her supporters?

This makes a lot of sense - if there was a search for 'dragonseeds' during Rhaenyra's war with Aegon II, then it means there is some truth to to the 'Targ blood required to bond with dragons' theory.

The question whether Valyrian blood predisposes you to bond with a dragon is no true question anymore. The practice of Valyrian most certainly was a way to keep the family blood pure so that a member of a rival house could not try to take over one of the family dragons after its rider died. Think about it: I'm Valyrian, I marry my daughter off into another house. Some time passes, they have children, and suddenly their blood is no longer that far from mine own. When the dragons realize this they may actually be able to bond with me as well. That way I could really take over another house by stealing its dragons (or rather the members of house could after some time has passed).

As to how the dragonbonding process works in detail - no idea. The Targaryens apparently did not have a Dragonbinder horn, that much seems clear, but the process of binding apparently really enabled you to control your dragon quite thoroughly. It does not seem as if the dragons of Aegon and his sisters run amok during while they had riders. Not even when they did not have any riders (which surely happened from time to time). For instance, we don't know who inherited Balerion after Maegor's death. I doubt that it was Jaehaerys since he may have already have bonded with another dragon when his uncle died.

The question whether any dragon is compatible with any rider is really intriguing. But my guess is still is that the closer your magical genetics are to the person who rode the dragon before you the better is your chance to bond with that dragon. That might be how Maegor could bond with Balerion, just as any other child of Aegon could have. If your blood is diluted then things get more and more difficult. Brown Ben Plumm is liked by the dragons, but I'm not sure if that's enough to actually bond with any of them.

Just as Quentyn might have had a shot, but his chances were not that good. He had not that much Targaryen blood and he was not all that confident that he could pull it off.

As to Aenys' non-Targaryen marriage: Surely there have been political marriages from time to time - even among the Valyrians back in the Freehold - despite the dragonbonding stuff. That was just necessity.

I like this explanation of a dragonrider having blood ties with the person who rode the dragon before him - making him a better candidate to ride a dragon. I know that Elaena Targaryen had a silver gold egg which she treasured. When I read about the Brown Ben incident, I wondered if Viserion was born of that same egg. But I think Viserion's egg was more pale cream and gold, so I guess that is unlikely.

This may also be the reason Illyrio gave Dany these dragon eggs, and not Aegon cause she had a higher probability to bond with the dragons.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

This makes a lot of sense - if there was a search for 'dragonseeds' during Rhaenyra's war with Aegon II, then it means there is some truth to to the 'Targ blood required to bond with dragons' theory.

Either that or they had started to drink their own Kool-Aid. I also remember something about the "dragonseed" hunt resulting in only middling success, or something, which again suggests that something else is going on here.

This may also be the reason Illyrio gave Dany these dragon eggs, and not Aegon cause she had a higher probability to bond with the dragons.

I think he gave them to her expecting her to sell them for ships for the Dothraki. He had absolutely no way of expecting that she would hatch them, and certainly doesn't suggest as much to, say, Tyrion. He's probably just as shocked that they hatched as anyone else.

[Dr. Pepper]

The excerpt and review of excerpt indicates that a part of the argument over who should be the next leader of the Targ dynasty centered on who was more Targaryen. If the debate was that the person with fewer branches in the family tree deserved the crown, it makes absolute sense that they'd try to validate why fewer branches=best and one of the best ways would seem to be with dragons. "Oh look, only mega Targs can ride dragons. har har har!" Makes me wonder who many dragon horns there were and who had control of the knowledge to use the dragon horns.

[wolfmaid7]

The question whether Valyrian blood predisposes you to bond with a dragon is no true question anymore. The practice of Valyrian most certainly was a way to keep the family blood pure so that a member of a rival house could not try to take over one of the family dragons after its rider died. Think about it: I'm Valyrian, I marry my daughter off into another house. Some time passes, they have children, and suddenly their blood is no longer that far from mine own. When the dragons realize this they may actually be able to bond with me as well. That way I could really take over another house by stealing its dragons (or rather the members of house could after some time has passed).

As to how the dragonbonding process works in detail - no idea. The Targaryens apparently did not have a Dragonbinder horn, that much seems clear, but the process of binding apparently really enabled you to control your dragon quite thoroughly. It does not seem as if the dragons of Aegon and his sisters run amok during while they had riders. Not even when they did not have any riders (which surely happened from time to time). For instance, we don't know who inherited Balerion after Maegor's death. I doubt that it was Jaehaerys since he may have already have bonded with another dragon when his uncle died.

The question whether any dragon is compatible with any rider is really intriguing. But my guess is still is that the closer your magical genetics are to the person who rode the dragon before you the better is your chance to bond with that dragon. That might be how Maegor could bond with Balerion, just as any other child of Aegon could have. If your blood is diluted then things get more and more difficult. Brown Ben Plumm is liked by the dragons, but I'm not sure if that's enough to actually bond with any of them.

Just as Quentyn might have had a shot, but his chances were not that good. He had not that much Targaryen blood and he was not all that confident that he could pull it off.

As to Aenys' non-Targaryen marriage: Surely there have been political marriages from time to time - even among the Valyrians back in the Freehold - despite the dragonbonding stuff. That was just necessity.

I think there is a bond between Dragon and Rider and that the Dragon initiates it by singing and if you have the blood but can't withstand the Dragonsong you are toast.That's how the Dragons test a rider's strength.

Mor told Vic now that he has the horn he needs blood. Dragonsong plus the right blood equals a dragon rider.I also think that's how the horn is suppose to work buy bypassing the effects of the Dragonsong which is death but putting it onto another.

"Yet when she slept that night, she dreamt a dragon dream again. Viserys was not in it this time. There was only her and the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her. She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce(agot,Dany).

Morroqo: ‘I am Dragonbinder,’ it says. Have you ever heard it sound?”

Victarion: “The sound it made … it burned,

somehow. As if my bones were on fire, searing my flesh from within. Those writings glowed red-hot,then white-hot and painful to look upon. It seemed as if the sound would never end. It was like some long scream. A thousand screams, all melted into one.”

Morroqo: “And the man who blew the horn, what of him?”

“He died. There were blisters on his lips, after. His bird was bleeding too.

‘No mortal man shall sound me and live.’ ”

Bitterly Victarion brooded on the treachery of brothers. Euron’s gifts are always poisoned.

Vic: “The Crow’s Eye swore this horn would bind dragons to my will. But how will that serve me if the price is

death?”

Mor: “Your brother did not sound the horn himself. Nor must you.” Moqorro pointed to the band of steel. “Here. ‘Blood for fire, fire for blood.’ Who blows the hellhorn matters not. The dragons will come to the horn’s master. You must claim the horn. With blood.”( ADWD,Victarion).

Edit: To insert text and condense first thought.

[The Dragon has three heads]

I didnt make the law it has been there for ages.

Aa x Aa

gives AA Aa Aa aa, after several generations you will have more AA and aa in the population than Aa thus pure lines are made.

Again I didnt make this law, its in all biology books.

AZOR AHAI!!!!?

[PatrickStormborn]

Yes, of course she is a dragon rider...that's why even with a whip she couldn't control him. That's why each time she climbs on his back, she can't direct him in any shape or form.

Sorry, I get that you are a Dany supporter, but wanting her to be a dragonrider does not make her one. The original Targ dragonriders could get their mounts to obey them. If she gets that horn and manages to get one of the dragons under control that way, fine. But as of right now, she does not have control of any dragons beyond basic imprinting, not natural control nor magical control.

Also, I just looked, and he doesn't share anything with her. Dany is forced to eat his leavings. That is not the same thing in any way.

Right, time to start throwing some quotes at you. You need educating on this subject.

Firstly, Daenerys is a dragonrider who has bonded with Drogon, that much is obvious. We only have two examples of riding dragons: the Targaryens physically riding dragons, and then there's also Visenya Targaryen taking the young Lord Arryn for a ride on Vhagar with her. The young Lord Arryn wouldn't be a "dragonrider", because he is only a passenger; similarly, just because someone rides in a car doesn't make them a driver.

However, Daenerys - as far as I'm aware - is the only person riding Drogon. He physically bends before her to allow her to climb on top of him. He has not done that with anyone else, nor have the other two dragons.

Here's what Dany notes at the beginning of her final ADwD chapter:

The dragonlords of old Valyria had controlled their mounts with binding spells and sorcerous horns. Daenerys made do with a word and a whip. Mounted on the dragon's back, she oft felt as if she were learning to ride all over again. When she whipped her silver mare on her right flank the mare went left, for a horse's first instinct is to flee from danger. When she laid the whip across Drogon's right side he veered right, for a dragon's first instinct is always to attack. Sometimes it did not seem to matter where she struck him, though; sometimes he went where he would and took her with him. Neither whip nor words could turn Drogon if he did not wish to be turned. The whip annoyed him more than it hurt him, she had come to see; his scales had grown harder than horn.

She's learning how to control him and ride him. But, at this point, Drogon is not responding to her all the time; he's still pissed off with her. He came to take her away from Meereen and to remind her of who she was. He won't respond until she does that.

But here's what happens by the end of her final chapter:

She called until her voice was hoarse … and Drogon came, snorting plumes of smoke. The grass bowed down before him. Dany leapt onto his back. She stank of blood and sweat and fear, but none of that mattered. "To go forward I must go back," she said. Her bare legs tightened around the dragon's neck. She kicked him, and Drogon threw himself into the sky. Her whip was gone, so she used her hands and feet and turned him north by east, the way the scout had gone.

What can we infer from this passage?

1. Drogon responds to her call.
   
   
2. Drogon allows Daenerys to ride him.
   
   
3. Drogon responds to Dany tightening her legs around his neck and kicking him.
   
   
4. Drogon responds to Dany's directions, using only her hands.
   

Now if you don't see that as her being a "dragonrider", then I honestly have no idea what to say to you. She is literally riding a dragon. She is giving commands to a dragon. We can argue about whether she is as good a dragonrider as Aegon and his sisters, and I'd agree that she is clearly not, due to her lack of knowledge (although she is making up for it now). But that doesn't mean she isn't a dragonrider.

Sorry, I get that you're probably not a Dany supporter, but not wanting Dany to be a dragonrider doesn't mean she isn't one. :rolleyes:

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

I believe Stark and Targaryen houses have a connection, a very old connection between them

[maidenandwarrior]

Right, time to start throwing some quotes at you. You need educating on this subject.

Firstly, Daenerys is a dragonrider who has bonded with Drogon, that much is obvious. We only have two examples of riding dragons: the Targaryens physically riding dragons, and then there's also Visenya Targaryen taking the young Lord Arryn for a ride on Vhagar with her. The young Lord Arryn wouldn't be a "dragonrider", because he is only a passenger; similarly, just because someone rides in a car doesn't make them a driver.

However, Daenerys - as far as I'm aware - is the only person riding Drogon. He physically bends before her to allow her to climb on top of him. He has not done that with anyone else, nor have the other two dragons.

Here's what Dany notes at the beginning of her final ADwD chapter:

She's learning how to control him and ride him. But, at this point, Drogon is not responding to her all the time; he's still pissed off with her. He came to take her away from Meereen and to remind her of who she was. He won't respond until she does that.

But here's what happens by the end of her final chapter:

What can we infer from this passage?

1. Drogon responds to her call.
   
   
2. Drogon allows Daenerys to ride him.
   
   
3. Drogon responds to Dany tightening her legs around his neck and kicking him.
   
   
4. Drogon responds to Dany's directions, using only her hands.
   

Now if you don't see that as her being a "dragonrider", then I honestly have no idea what to say to you. She is literally riding a dragon. She is giving commands to a dragon. We can argue about whether she is as good a dragonrider as Aegon and his sisters, and I'd agree that she is clearly not, due to her lack of knowledge (although she is making up for it now). But that doesn't mean she isn't a dragonrider.

Sorry, I get that you're probably not a Dany supporter, but not wanting Dany to be a dragonrider doesn't mean she isn't one. :rolleyes:

Look, I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I never disputed that Dany has a connection with her dragons, its called imprinting. As dragons seem to have some avian traits, it is not surprising. You seem to think her riding on the back of a dragon implies that she is just like Aegon and Visenya. Just, no. The conquerors had control over their dragons, as did Alysanne.

Drogon in no way takes Dany where she wants to go. She has stumbled onto his hunting grounds, and he wants to chase after the Dothraki and eat their horses:

In a dozen heartbeats they were past the Dothraki, as he galloped far below. To the right and left, Dany glimpsed places where the grass was burned and ashen. Drogon has come his way before, she realized. Like a chain of grey islands, the marks of his hunting dotted the green grass sea.

A vast herd of horses appeared below them. There were riders too, a score or more, but they turned and fled at the first sight of the dragon. The horses broke and ran when the shadow fell upon them, racing through the grass until their sides were white with foam, tearing the ground with their hooves … but as swift as they were, they could not fly. Soon one horse began to lag behind the others. The dragon descended on him, roaring, and all at once the poor beast was aflame, yet somehow he kept on running, screaming with every step, until Drogon landed on him and broke his back. Dany clutched the dragon's neck with all her strength to keep from sliding off.

Momentarily, their wants coincide. This has nothing to do with control or mastery. Maybe you see this in a different way, and that is perfectly valid, but my interpretation is too. If Dany shows up in the next book and can actually control the way Drogon heads, I will be happy to say I am wrong. But I think to attribute great wisdom to Drogon (he is taking her the way she needs to go, :rolleyes: ) is to make the same mistake that Dany does.

Anyway, that's my take. Let's get back to the topic at hand, though.

If Aenys really did marry a Stark, I am curious if anyone thinks that this gives the title of the series new meaning? Jon wouldn't be the only song of Ice and Fire, so what does it mean? I am going to have to think about this further.

[Sonnet]

After reading the Bubicon notes, apart from the (awesome and enlightening) fact that Rhaenys and Meraxes apparently both died in Dorne

Where might I read these notes?

[Lord Varys]

On the 'purity' of Targaryen blood:

My take on the factor the blood plays in the dragonbonding thing is that Dany's Targaryen made her the promised princess/Azor Ahai in the first place. It was what enabled her to become the Mother of Dragons. Thus her three dragons are now, say, imprinted with Dany-like Targaryen blood. And that may not differ all that much from the blood of the last dragon-riding Targaryen generation. Daenerys is descended from Rhaenyra and her second husband who was also a Targaryen (though not her brother). Viserys II may have had a Velaryon wife, Aegon IV married his sister, Daeron II married Myriah, and we don't know anything about Maekar's, Egg's, and Jaehaerys' wives, but I suspect at least one Blackfyre to be among them. If that's the case, then Viserys' branch of the Targ tree would have finally getting another shot from the branch of Aegon III (through Daena and Daemon Blackfyre).

If we also assume that Dany's dragon eggs came from the Targaryen dragons, then there is indeed a good chance that the 'familiarity' of Dany's blood figured into the whole magical ritual that hatched the eggs.

As to Drogon and Dany:

My guess is that Dany surely has somewhat bonded with him. But she doesn't seem to control him fully yet. I can't see Aegon or Maegor controlling Balerion with a whip. The thought alone is silly, so there has to be something else. Something she has not yet done. And we don't know if Dragonbinder could steal Drogon away from her...

[Fire Eater]

Nice theory, Apple. It is possible that the royal houses that chose not to fight were rewarded with marriages to Aegon's offspring. Rhaenyra's mother was an Arryn and GRRM said she was a distant cousin to the Targs, and so it is possible that one of Rhaenys's daughters was married to Ronnel Arryn or some other Arryn. Torrhen could have had his daughter marry Aegon's heir as part of the deal to relinquish his crown. Jaehaerys I was one of best kings the Targaryen dynasty ever produced, and he was known as the Old King with the longest reign of any Targ king, so this could be another hint at Jon's future if the Old King's mother was a Stark. I guess that would make Val akin to Good Queen Alysanne, I could see her in that role.

[Ice Turtle]

I've seen this theory before and I still like it. One interesting point is that we have Jaehaery's and Alysanne's description only when they are old. That always seemed rather fishy for me, even before it was confirmed that their mother wasn't Targ. Alysanne was fair but Jaehaerys could have had brown hair for all we know.

[Harlaw's Book]

This is probably crackpot, but what if the Stark in question was actually a Snow, most likely Brandon Snow’s daughter.

• Torrhen sent Brandon to negotiate with Aegon, which provides the opportunity for such a betrothal to be proposed. If Brandon still thought that his plan to kill dragons would succeed, I think it’s believable he would give it up in order for his daughter to be queen. If Aegon knew anything about Brandon’s plan and feared that it would be successful, it would be in Aegon’s best interest to have Brandon on his side.
  
• Considering that Orys Baratheon is Aegon’s best friend, “stalwart shield…”, Aegon may not find the idea of his son marrying a bastard abhorrent the way the Storm King and other Westerosi lords would
  
• None of the other lords (that would care) had the power to challenge such as an unacceptable marriage.
  
• If bastardy was an issue Aegon could legitimize her. (Or because Torrhen and Brandon appear to be on good terms, Torrhen could’ve legitimized her before kneeling. Alternatively, Brandon agreed to kill the dragons in exchange for legitimization –his own or for his daughter. When the plan fell threw, he got Aegon to do it if the legitimization hadn’t already happened –see above).
  
• If Brandon exhibited more magical ability than Torrhen, a marriage with Brandon’s daughter may have been more desirable than with Torrhen or any other trueborn Stark.
  
• Marrying a Snow would anger the Faith Militant more than marrying a Stark would.
  
• IMHO the idea of a trueborn Targ marrying a bastard Stark becomes an interesting bookend to the events that occurred at Storm’s End.
  
• This could’ve factored into Jaehaerys’ decision to chose Barth as his hand. Someone who descends from Brandon the Builder may appreciate the blacksmith background more. And having a mother that was a Snow may be why Jaehaerys looked past Barth’s low social origins.
  
• Renaming Snowgate to Queensgate in honor of Alysanne becomes even more apt.
  

As mentioned this is probably crackpot, but it has been very fun to think about.

[Lord Varys]

It's unlikely that the Prince of Dragonstone would be married to a Stark bastard. Orys Baratheon was a Targaryen bastard and Aegon's best friend. That explains why considers him worthy of pretty much everyone. But I don't think this works vice versa.

And I also doubt that Septon Barth's background is all that important. The whole point of him seems to be that Jaehaerys chose a competent and learned man as Hand. One who rose from humble birth through merit to the pinnacle of power while not actively pursuing a political career. Jaehaerys found him in the Red Keep's library, and rose him to Handship against his will. My guess is that they met each other when the King (or Prince) Jaehaerys visited said library.

But Barth surely became a very intriguing figure. He was a sorcerer, a great Hand, and a learned man. And his books have to have been really interesting, or else Baelor would not have declared them heretic and burned them...

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

This is probably crackpot, but what if the Stark in question was actually a Snow, most likely Brandon Snow’s daughter.

Yeah I don't think that Aenys would marry anyone from a bastard line.