Aenys I's Wife: A Stark?

[Kienn]

I agree with your theory about Aenys I having a possible Stark wife.

However I disagree about the purity point.

I have done genetics before and inbreeding always produces a pure line over generations, I think the only thing that made the Targaryens less pure are Aegon V and Jaeharys II marrying for love both in succession.

In science mixed blood type can always produce a pure line again after generations of inbreeding.

Weird, I was taught that genetics were based on randomness and probabilities...

Someone taught you that genes are selectively racist? Yikes!

Also

After reading the Bubicon notes

Link?

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Weird, I was taught that genetics were based on randomness and probabilities...

Someone taught you that genes are selectively racist? Yikes!

What does "selectively racist" mean?

Even though genes are random, most of the time inbreeding lines produce pure lines after several generations, I don't see how this is new it is one of the first discoveries in genetics by Mendel, however this is off topic if you wish to make a discussion of this pm me.

[MasterJack]

About the inbreeding and pure line comments, OO X II = ¼ (OI ,OI ,OI or OI) , lets say O are Targ genes, my exemple might represents the Aenys X Stark kids, and lets says those kids sleep with eachother and get 4 kids for themself : 25% (OO) 50% (OI) 25%II now that doesnt look too bad but this is only for 1 genes, human has something like 16 000 genes. Even thought some gene are more likely to be inherited in lot, the instant 1 outsider enter their blood, it is too late to be pure again. just like that if there are 2000 groups of gene (random number, it is probably way higher) the odds to get a pure targ (a clone) are 0,25²⁰⁰⁰ =7^-1203%... good luck

It also mean each time an unpure tagr has kids with another unpure kids, there is 25% chance to loose a targ gene forever and this go up to 50% when an unpure targ sleep with a no-targ (which happenned at least 4-5 time). 0,5⁴=6,25% of overall purity left just after these 4 marriage.

Sorry if this is difficult to understand, English is difficult for me and talking science in english over9000time more troublesome.

[Kienn]

What does "selectively racist" mean?

Even though genes are random, most of the time inbreeding lines produce pure lines after several generations, I don't see how this is new it is one of the first discoveries in genetics by Mendel, however this is off topic if you wish to make a discussion of this pm me.

Umm yes. But that doesn't mean 50% "targ" brother breeding with 50% "targ" sister eventually leads back to 100% targ again. Their line would become pure 50% "targ" 50% "stark" eventually... if you want to think about it like that, although it's a weird transition since as far as I know mendel's work was based on single traits that were controlled by a single gene, not entire complex mammals.

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<snip>

This actually jibes pretty well with what I remember about genetics from high school and university classes. Honestly it's probably a miracle the "Targ look" is as prevalent as it is.

And because everything has to tie into R+L=J, it also sort of adds another dimension to Rhaegar choosing Lyanna. The connection might be old enough for Aerys to have missed it when he went wife-hunting (and Elia was more recently related anyway), but if mattered at all to Rhaegar, Lyanna would have been an option, however far removed.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

About the inbreeding and pure line comments, OO X II = ¼ (OI ,OI ,OI or OI) , lets say O are Targ genes, my exemple might represents the Aenys X Stark kids, and lets says those kids sleep with eachother and get 4 kids for themself : 25% (OO) 50% (OI) 25%II now that doesnt look too bad but this is only for 1 genes, human has something like 16 000 genes. Even thought some gene are more likely to be inherited in lot, the instant 1 outsider enter their blood, it is too late to be pure again. just like that if there are 2000 groups of gene (random number, it is probably way higher) the odds to get a pure targ (a clone) are 0,25²⁰⁰⁰ =7^-1203%... good luck

It also mean each time an unpure tagr has kids with another unpure kids, there is 25% chance to loose a targ gene forever and this go up to 50% when an unpure targ sleep with a no-targ (which happenned at least 4-5 time). 0,5⁴=6,25% of overall purity left just after these 4 marriage.

Sorry if this is difficult to understand, English is difficult for me and talking science in english over9000time more troublesome.

GRRM doesnt have a strong scientific backround like PHD level I doubt he will go this far, he probably based it on simple Mendelian genetics.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Umm yes. But that doesn't mean 50% "targ" brother breeding with 50% "targ" sister eventually leads back to 100% targ again. Their line would become pure 50% "targ" 50% "stark" eventually... if you want to think about it like that, although it's a weird transition since as far as I know mendel's work was based on single traits that were controlled by a single gene, not entire complex mammals.

Thats the point GRRM has a an educational backround strong in history, so its more likely he would use Mendellian genetics, rather than modern genetics as Masterjack pointed out.

[Kienn]

Thats the point GRRM has a an educational backround strong in history, so its more likely he would use Mendellian genetics, rather than modern genetics as Masterjack pointed out.

I think GRRM has said his genetics were based partially on magic when people asked him about the baratheon/lannister/joffrey hair thing.

I was saying even mendellian genetics would disagree with your supposition that bloodlines would "purify" themselves.

[MasterJack]

If what people consider the Targ genes are only the hair color, the eyes color, and the false magic genes. You just have to kill your non-silver haired-purple-eyed kids and hope your /cough/false/cough/ magic gene isnt lost over the generation, much more simple

[MasterJack]

Back to the topic, if Aenys wife was a stark, and their children had a specific trait Rheagar was looking for his third child, it might resolve my "wtf freaking 22yoprince eloping with a 14yo girl, leading to a massive war that killed thousand" problem with rheagar.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

If what people consider the Targ genes are only the hair color, the eyes color, and the false magic genes. You just have to kill your non-silver haired-purple-eyed kids and hope your /cough/false/cough/ magic gene isnt lost over the generation, much more simple

Thats exactly what should be done if the blood really is magical, but I dont think even as mad as Targaryens are, they would kill their own children just to make their blood pure.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I think GRRM has said his genetics were based partially on magic when people asked him about the baratheon/lannister/joffrey hair thing.

I was saying even mendellian genetics would disagree with your supposition that bloodlines would "purify" themselves.

I didnt make the law it has been there for ages.

Aa x Aa

gives AA Aa Aa aa, after several generations you will have more AA and aa in the population than Aa thus pure lines are made.

Again I didnt make this law, its in all biology books.

[Kienn]

Back to the topic, if Aenys wife was a stark, and their children had a specific trait Rheagar was looking for his third child, it might resolve my "wtf freaking 22yoprince eloping with a 14yo girl, leading to a massive war that killed thousand" problem with rheagar.

It seemed like Rhaegar was trying to re-create Aegon I and his sisters to me, rather than their grandkids so that seems unlikely to me to be a reason he would pick a Stark. My best guess for Rhaegar doing it atm is the "song of ice and fire" line he likely read in a book somewhere.

The idea that Jaehaerys/Alysanne had a northern mother as a reason to check out the north makes sense to me though.

Would still like to read these bubicon notes myself.

[Bradley1029]

Let's not forget that when we talk about Targ genes we are really talking about Valyrian genes. And although there were instances of marrying to other houses of non Valyrian decent there are also at least three instances of marrying with house Velaryon, another house of Valyrian decent that also presumably practices marrying with family members given their appearance during asoiaf unlike the Baratheons. This could have helped strengthen some Valyrian traits that may have been lost by out breeding.

[Roadside Rose]

This actually jibes pretty well with what I remember about genetics from high school and university classes. Honestly it's probably a miracle the "Targ look" is as prevalent as it is.

Agreed. Baratheon genetics is so simple. Targ genetics is a different story though. :dunno:

Brown Ben Plumm's 'two drops' of dragon blood (of a distant ancestor) was enough to draw Viserion to him. But Quentyn's dragon blood did not save him from the dragon's wrath. Something doesn't add up, or we don't know the whole story yet.

[Ser Creighton]

It seemed like Rhaegar was trying to re-create Aegon I and his sisters to me, rather than their grandkids so that seems unlikely to me to be a reason he would pick a Stark. My best guess for Rhaegar doing it atm is the "song of ice and fire" line he likely read in a book somewhere.

The idea that Jaehaerys/Alysanne had a northern mother as a reason to check out the north makes sense to me though.

Would still like to read these bubicon notes myself.

Rheager thought Aegon was the song of ice and fire and his creation started with a Martell who Had some distant Targ blood. Would be no different than with a Stark with distant Targ blood. Time seemed more important to Rhaegar than just about anything. He also had no sister nor was he expecting one. Baratheon had no daughters and neither did the Arryns.

[Ser Creighton]

Agreed. Baratheon genetics is so simple. Targ genetics is a different story though. :dunno:

Brown Ben Plumm's 'two drops' of dragon blood (of a distant ancestor) was enough to draw Viserion to him. But Quentyn's dragon blood did not save him from the dragon's wrath. Something doesn't add up, or we don't know the whole story yet.

Who said it was the blood or that it is even true about Plumm having Targ blood. Dany liked Brown Ben, and she liked her hand maids. The dragons have been refered to by Martin as dog like in intelligence. Don't no many dogs that don't pick up on who their master likes or dislikes.

[Dr. Pepper]

Rheager thought Aegon was the song of ice and fire and his creation started with a Martell who Had some distant Targ blood. Would be no different than with a Stark with distant Targ blood. Time seemed more important to Rhaegar than just about anything. He also had no sister nor was he expecting one. Baratheon had no daughters and neither did the Arryns.

But we don't really have any evidence that the Starks have distant Targ blood like we know the Martells or Baratheons do. A Targaryen was the mother of a Martell, while we can't say the same about the starks. Simply having a Stark marry into the Targs and being a mother of Targ(s) doesn't inject Targ blood to the Starks by osmosis. Same with the Hightowers and Arryns, based on what we know.

[Roadside Rose]

Who said it was the blood or that it is even true about Plumm having Targ blood. Dany liked Brown Ben, and she liked her hand maids. The dragons have been refered to by Martin as dog like in intelligence. Don't no many dogs that don't pick up on who their master likes or dislikes.

Tyrion says so.

Not only do I know that the queen’s dragons took to you, but I know why.”

“My mother said my father had a drop of dragon blood.”

“Two drops.

Brown Ben Plumm is a descendant of Ossifer Plumm. Ossifer Plumm was married to Elaena Targaryen. Elaena gave birth to a child 10 months after the death of Ossifer Plumm. And it is speculated that the father was actually a 'Targaryen' but since she wanted to keep the wealth and properties of Ossifer Plumm, she claimed it was Plumm's child. And that's how Brown Ben gets 'two drops' of Targ blood.

[Dr. Pepper]

Tyrion says so.

Brown Ben Plumm is a descendant of Ossifer Plumm. Ossifer Plumm was married to Elaena Targaryen. Elaena gave birth to a child 10 months after the death of Ossifer Plumm. And it is speculated that the father was actually a 'Targaryen' but since she wanted to keep the wealth and properties of Ossifer Plumm, she claimed it was Plumm's child. And that's how Brown Ben gets 'two drops' of Targ blood.

I don't think that's actually what Ser Creighton meant as I'm sure he recalled the story of BBP's ancestory. I think the question was more why should we believe the idea that only those who have Valyrian blood, no matter how tiny or far back the drop, will be received well by the dragons? Especially when we see evidence that the dragons are well-receiving towards others who are presumed to have no Valyrian blood while also barbequeing those who are known to be of Valyrian descent.