R+L=J v.60

[finger]

No. When people talk about "Aegon at the Tower of Joy," they mean the Aegon.

The Aegon to whom we're introduced, Young Griff, is almost uniformly seen as either the Aegon, or a pretender. Not Rhaegar and Lyanna's son and not Jon's twin.

Just to put things clear.

Aegon at the ToJ is the same Aegon at THOU's vision. He has to appear yet, and he's the great surprise.

Varys' Aegon is the mummer's dragon.

Btw, there's no more textual evidence of R marrying L than Hightower escorting Aegon to ToJ. Both are reasonable behaviours.

[Audrey Arryn]

Just to put things clear.

Aegon at the ToJ is the same Aegon at THOU's vision. He has to appear yet, and he's the great surprise.

Varys' Aegon is the mummer's dragon.

Btw, there's no more textual evidence of R marrying L than Hightower escorting Aegon to ToJ. Both are reasonable behaviours.

But GRRM said the woman inHOTU was Elia.

[finger]

This. Is. The. Point. GRRM is like Ned when it comes to 'dangerous' truths: a nice mix of clever generalizations and half-truths, 'cause it is twice as hard to crush a half-truth as a whole lie. GRRM's answer is a masterful example of evasive maneuver as it is not contextualized. He simply feeds us the manual of the good KG, but doesn't specify what happens when orders clash with vows/primary duties.

Jamie, on his way to redemption, has got an answer for us:

That's THE point! What were Aerys' commands to Hightower, when he sent him to fetch Rhaegar?

It was war and he was no page, his task had to be VERY important.

:agree:

I made the same point in a recent thread. Moving Aegon to the ToJ only separates Aegon from Rhaenys, but it pairs him with Jon.

Moving Aegon to the ToJ separates Aegon from AERYS.

You are encroached in the textual evidence and you're neglecting the KG behaviour.

If only a pregnant Lyanna was in ToJ, the whole thing of the 3 KG is plainly stupid. She'd fared better with some maester more and some KG less, for the good they did.

You dare speak of logic, while taking this without balking?

[MtnLion]

That's THE point! What were Aerys' commands to Hightower, when he sent him to fetch Rhaegar?

It was war and he was no page, his task had to be VERY important.

Or, it had to be that no other Kingsguard were available, except Jaime, and Aerys was loathe to part with Jaime.

[Ygrain]

That's THE point! What were Aerys' commands to Hightower, when he sent him to fetch Rhaegar?

It was war and he was no page, his task had to be VERY important.

You mean, something like negotiating with the Crown Prince the conditions under which he would be willing to return to KL and take over the command?

Moving Aegon to the ToJ separates Aegon from AERYS.

Some evidence that Aerys ever intended harm to Aegon?

You are encroached in the textual evidence and you're neglecting the KG behaviour.

If only a pregnant Lyanna was in ToJ, the whole thing of the 3 KG is plainly stupid. She'd fared better with some maester more and some KG less, for the good they did.

You dare speak of logic, while taking this without balking?

And when some hostiles would come over, the maester would do what? Talk them to death with lectures on the movements of celestial bodies?

Do no invoke the name of logic if you're not using it yourself.

[MtnLion]

Moving Aegon to the ToJ separates Aegon from AERYS.

Moving Aegon anywhere away from the Red Keep does this, but what is the motive? Rhaegar and Aerys were on good terms, father and son. Aegon was Aerys' granson, and he certainly didn't threaten the children, did he? And, if Rhaegar makes a choice to move any of his family away from the Red Keep, the logical choice is his domain, Dragonstone. So many times I see people forgetting why Stannis held Dragonstone, that is the crown prince's holding.

[finger]

I find it fishy that after 5 books, Martin has not laid out the oath of the Kingsguard. We have the NW oath that has been dissected and studied countless times but no Kingsguard oath.

GRRM hasn't found it fit to word the vow, but he has made Jaime explain its content to Brienne: guard the king, do his bidding, keep his secrets, your life for his.

This line i svery telling, bur many people decide to neglect it.

Exactly correct. Rhaegar's orders explain why they were there to begin with, but they don't explain why they stayed there after he died. Protecting the king explains that.

Because they can follow orders from other members of the royal family as long as those orders do not contradict their other more important duties: protecting the king and following the king's orders. If Rhaegar ordered them to kill or depose Aerys, they wouldn't have obeyed those orders because they contradicted their other vows and duties. But that was not the case here: Rhaegar ordered them to stay at the TOJ; Aerys was protected (or so they thought) by other KG and he wasn't there to give them an order that contradicted Rhaegar's order. That's why they obeyed.

Not correct at all.

Hightower went to ToJ at Aerys command, not Rhaegar. Such a paranoid as Aerys was, he had to give him precise and prolix instructions, not just "go deliver this message."

Some pages before, Jaime explains how Aerys' orders trump Rhaegar's.

And this is the same Hightower who scolded Jaime when Aerys roasted the Starks.

At the moment Hightower went to TOJ, Aerys was king and the succesion line was:

1 Rhaegar

2 Aegon

3 Rhaenys

4 Viserys

5 Rhaella

Danaerys and Jon were not born.

Think it better.

[Ygrain]

GRRM hasn't found it fit to word the vow, but he has made Jaime explain its content to Brienne: guard the king, do his bidding, keep his secrets, your life for his.

This line i svery telling, bur many people decide to neglect it.

People who choose to ignore that the individual parts of the oath do not have the same priority had better refrain from such comments, thank you.

At the moment Hightower went to TOJ, Aerys was king and the succesion line was:

1 Rhaegar

2 Aegon

3 Rhaenys

4 Viserys

5 Rhaella

Danaerys and Jon were not born.

You might want to read again the rules of Targaryen succession.

[WhiteOwl18]

Not correct at all.

Hightower went to ToJ at Aerys command, not Rhaegar. Such a paranoid as Aerys was, he had to give him precise and prolix instructions, not just "go deliver this message."

Some pages before, Jaime explains how Aerys' orders trump Rhaegar's.

And this is the same Hightower who scolded Jaime when Aerys roasted the Starks.

Hightower went to the TOJ at Aery's command, yes. And then Rhaegar told him to stay. Since Rhaegar's orders do not contradict Aerys's, he stays. No one is claiming that the king's orders aren't the most important, what I was saying is that they can follow someone else's as long as the king's orders are not contradicted. That was the case here.

At the moment Hightower went to TOJ, Aerys was king and the succesion line was:

1 Rhaegar

2 Aegon

3 Rhaenys

4 Viserys

5 Rhaella

Danaerys and Jon were not born.

Think it better.

Wrong. Women were only considered in Targaryen succession when there are no more males. Rhaenys and Rhaella wouldn't be in line for the throne at all.

[Jon Icefyre]

Actually, I think this kind of kills the argument that Septa Lemore = Serra.

Hair dye in Westeros is not the potent chemical type that we have today. Aegon 'washes' it out. I'm not sure how often Sansa washes her hair, but I'd guess that in Westeros once a month is the average for washing hair...less among small folk.

Septa Lemore bathes every day and she bathes in the nude. Does she shave her pubic hair? or does she dye that too? Both of these options seem impractical considering that she is traveling on a boat where there is no intimacy. And I'm not convinced that shaving legs, armpits and pubic hair are common practices in Westeros. If she was hairless Tyrion certainly would have noticed, no?

There are plenty of hints that she might be Ashara, and if she isn't the second candidate IMO is Mellario. As a poster once said Mellario me = I am Lemore.

Hair going grey is not really an argument either, because some people have all around white hair in their early thirties, and others, barely start having grey hair in their 50. It really depends on your genetic predisposition, and the life style you've led - stress, smoking, drinking, hormonal changes...these things can make you grey quicker.

This is GRRM's world and he's already admitted several times that he doesn't think through every possible realistic factor of a plot point he adds to a story, so I really think you're drastically over thinking the hair dye issue, at the end of the day if GRRM chose to give Serra hair dye then he would obviously find a way to make it work for the story. There are just as many hints that point to Serra as there are Ashara, the hint that ppl seem to argue the most for Ashara is the fact that GRRM chooses to have Tyrion not mention Lemore's eyes. Well just like ppl seem to think that's a dead give away for Ashara, I think it would've been just as big of a give away that Lemore was Serra if Tyrion would've described her as having, "big blue eyes" especialy since we had just gotten a description of Serra's, "big blue eyes" earlier in ADWD in the first Tyrion POV, so to describe Lemore as having those same eyes later in ADWD would definitely get a lot of readers attention. Which could also be said for Ashara, but again my point is Ashara is no bigger of a possibility that Serra. So other than the eyes, ever other 'hint' that supposedly points to Ashara could be attributed to literally any other woman that looks to be in her 40's(even though Ashara wouldn't even be 40) that's given birth, I don't really see why it has to be Ashara specifically. Ppl just love to bring her up because they can't stand the idea of her actually being dead or no longer relevant to the story. I still think it's possible that Ashara is Lemore, but not likely. Mellario is also a small possibility, but I think it's just as possible that Tyene Sand's mother who was said to be a Septa could also be Lemore......

[Ygrain]

OT, back to the old debate of picturing Rhaegar: can you imagine this guy with Targ colouring?

http://www.bigstockphoto.com/image-36391159/stock-photo-closeup-portrait-of-a-beautiful-male-model-against-beach-background

[Greymoon]

This is GRRM's world and he's already admitted several times that he doesn't think through every possible realistic factor of a plot point he adds to a story, so I really think you're drastically over thinking the hair dye issue, at the end of the day if GRRM chose to give Serra hair dye then he would obviously find a way to make it work for the story. There are just as many hints that point to Serra as there are Ashara, the hint that ppl seem to argue the most for Ashara is the fact that Tyrion doesn't mention her eyes. Well just like ppl seem to think that's a dead give away for Ashara, I think it would've been just as big of a give away that Lemore was Serra if Tyrion would've described her as having, "big blue eyes" especialy since we had just gotten a description of Serra's, "big blue eyes" earlier in ADWD in the first Tyrion POV, so to describe Lemore as having those same eyes later in ADWD would definitely get a lot of readers attention. Which could also be said for Ashara, but again my point is Ashara is no bigger of a possibility that Serra. So other than the eyes, ever other 'hint' that supposedly points to Ashara could be attributed to literally any other woman that looks to be in her 40's(even though Ashara wouldn't even be 40) that's given birth, I don't really see why it has to be Ashara specifically. Ppl just love to bring her up because they can't stand the idea of her actually being dead or no longer relevant to the story. I still think it's possible that Ashara is Lemore, but not likely. Mellario is also a small possibility, but I think it's just as possible that Tyene Sand's mother who was said to be a Septa could also be Lemore......

IMO, this suggest we should just stop speculating. That's a kill all argument.

About Ashara: her eyes are not the biggest hint. For me, what did it, and I was of the Lemore = Mellario persuation is the SSM quote about boats in Starfall. They's also the fact the Lemore bathes/knows how to swim, which is probably not a skill that women high born or else ever learn, if they don't live close to the sea. And as Corbon has said, Lemore being Ashara actually creates a conflict situation with Barristan's loyalty towards Dany.

Further...Ashara is dead, has been for the past 17 years, by all means she should not matter. But she does! How often is she mentioned? Then, there's that strange little fact that Edric Dayne is nicknamed after Ned. Why? Why should Martin let us know that she wasn't "nailed at the floor" in Starfall? Why should Jon Connington let slip that Lemore is a "lady" ? How could Varys and Illyrio convince JonCon that (f)Aegon is the real deal, if not because of Ashara's presence?

Or maybe she did became Quaithe, and did die in the sea, but as the Ironborn say "What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger". She's Un-Ashara. :smug:

[MtnLion]

Jon Icefyre, Tyene Sand is fair, with golden hair and blue eyes. If GRRM honors genetics even slightly, her mother would be fair; with golden hair and blue eyes, since Oberyn is nether. (I am assuming that Oberyn was indeed her father. ;) ) As punishment for his part in the conspiracy to crown Myrcella Baratheon, Ser Andrey Dalt was sent to serve Lady Mellario for three years in Norvos. So, it seems that Mellario isn't in hiding, having just left when Quentyn was sent to Yronwood to be fostered, since someone was sent to serve her.

Lemore might be just Lemore. I don't believe that Serra is alive. And, it would make an interesting twist in the plot if Lemore was Ashara and other things had also happened. We just don't have enough information . . . yet.

[King of Winters]

OT, back to the old debate of picturing Rhaegar: can you imagine this guy with Targ colouring?

http://www.bigstockphoto.com/image-36391159/stock-photo-closeup-portrait-of-a-beautiful-male-model-against-beach-background

Well of you've got the app, the picture of Rhaegar could be taken as to what he looks like.

[MtnLion]

Rhaegar was born at Summerhall? I know he was born the day it burned down but I didn't know he was born there.

I believe the info comes from the app.

I can't say, right at the moment exactly where it is in the books, but if you search for "salt" and "smoke" there is mention of Rhaegar being born at Summerhall when it burnt down.

[Nami]

Rhaegar was born in Dragonstone the same time the tragedy of Summerhall was happening

[Jon Icefyre]

Jon Icefyre, Tyene Sand is fair, with golden hair and blue eyes. If GRRM honors genetics even slightly, her mother would be fair; with golden hair and blue eyes, since Oberyn is nether. (I am assuming that Oberyn was indeed her father. ;) ) As punishment for his part in the conspiracy to crown Myrcella Baratheon, Ser Andrey Dalt was sent to serve Lady Mellario for three years in Norvos. So, it seems that Mellario isn't in hiding, having just left when Quentyn was sent to Yronwood to be fostered, since someone was sent to serve her.

Lemore might be just Lemore. I don't believe that Serra is alive. And, it would make an interesting twist in the plot if Lemore was Ashara and other things had also happened. We just don't have enough information . . . yet.

I agree with the fair hair part but that's also why I agree with Alia that Lemore could possibly have died her hair, wouldn't be the first time a character has done that, I definitely agree that Lemore could just be Lemore and that Serra might actually be dead, but I think that lllyrio quote that Alia provided is definitely a subtle hint that YG is lllyrio's son.....

[Ygrain]

Well of you've got the app, the picture of Rhaegar could be taken as to what he looks like.

I don't :-( Can it be found elsewhere? And who is it by? I don't like Amoka's pics on the wiki very much.

[Greymoon]

OT, back to the old debate of picturing Rhaegar: can you imagine this guy with Targ colouring?

http://www.bigstockp...each-background

:dunno:

http://www.thenumber...thias_Lauridsen

http://models.sight-...441-andy-gillet

Edit: two of the links didn't work. ^^

[Rhaegar's Love]

OT, back to the old debate of picturing Rhaegar: can you imagine this guy with Targ colouring?

http://www.bigstockp...each-background

Me likey :drool:

I had a thought occur to me earlier that has probably been discussed before but in case it hasn't...

Could it be said that Bloodraven acknowledged Jon as a Targ via Ghost? I'm with those who believe Bloodraven is behind the Starks getting the direwolves. I just found it interesting that the Albino Targ makes sure that Jon (the hidden Targ) is paired up with the Albino direwolf. He could have initiated Jon's warging experience, when he heard the mute Ghost cry out. On top of that, it could be said that his Targ side was calling to him, much the way that the truth of his mother is calling him to the crypts.

I'm not saying Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's bastard. I firmly believe he is legitimate, but as has been acknowledged, proving his legitimacy might be tricky so Westeros might end up viewing him as one of the Great Bastards, even though he's trueborn. And secretly I hope when he looks in the crypts he finds a letter from Rhaegar and a letter from Lyanna, letting him know how much they loved each other and him :crying: (I know it probably won't happen but I can dream).

On a lighter note, I would find it hilarious if Jon was supposed to be named Jaehnarys (or however it's spelt), because could you imagine his reaction to it? Priceless. :D