R+L=J v.60

[Alia of the knife]

Interesting picks indeed

Can you tell I just got in from work, and have a lot to say?, lol.

[Jon Icefyre]

Can you tell I just got in from work, and have a lot to say?, lol.

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

[Ygrain]

Fortunately, in one sense, the thread has moved on from this topic now. I'm sorry that happened without anyone answering the point about JonCon saying Prince Aegon (who, as we know, has no dragons) can only have one wife, but perhaps we'll get to that one another time.

Prince Aegon is a pretender for the throne without any powerbase and nothing special to offer. He is not in a position to pull polygamy, nor is he in a position to offend Dany by marrying someone else before her.

As for Dany being able to marry more spouses just because she has dragons... "If you have some huge fire-breathing dragons, you can get people to accept a lot of things that they might otherwise have problems with." I must have missed that part when her dragons became huge, and it all keeps boiling to the same argument: if the Targs were able to get away with with breaking one "taboo" even without dragons, why not break two.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Prince Aegon is a pretender for the throne without any powerbase and nothing special to offer. He is not in a position to pull polygamy, nor is he in a position to offend Dany by marrying someone else before her.

As for Dany being able to marry more spouses just because she has dragons... "If you have some huge fire-breathing dragons, you can get people to accept a lot of things that they might otherwise have problems with." I must have missed that part when her dragons became huge, and it all keeps boiling to the same argument: if the Targs were able to get away with with breaking one "taboo" even without dragons, why not break two.

I want to add to this that GRRM said there may have been "later" instances of polygamy among the Targs, not making any pre- or post-dragon distinction. So he at least leaves the door open for the possibility, which I think is all R+L=J people really ask.

Here's one SSM:

Q: Would polygamous marriages be accepted in Westeros today, especially if Targaryens were involved?

A: If you have some huge fire-breathing dragons, you can get people to accept a lot of things that they might otherwise have problems with.

Pretty cleverly dodges the actual question. Never says they wouldn't be accepted, even if they weren't liked. He's clear that having dragons makes it easier to get away with it, but he always stops short of absolutely shutting it down.

[Dragonfish]

Yeah, except for maybe a few posts here and there, I've never cared that much whether polygamy would be a hard sell or not. Ok, so it defies convention. So what? You know what else defies convention? How about running off the daughter of prominent lord, and in the process breaking her betrothal to another prominent lord. If Rhaegar was willing to do that, I see little reason why he'd be afraid to revive polygamy.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Yeah, except for maybe a few posts here and there, I've never cared that much whether polygamy would be a hard sell or not. Ok, so it defies convention. So what? You know what else defies convention? How about running off the daughter of prominent lord, and in the process breaking her betrothal to another prominent lord. If Rhaegar was willing to do that, I see little reason why he'd be afraid to revive polygamy.

Pretty good point. Whether it was confidence or hubris or miscalculation, Rhaegar seemed like someone who played by his own rules. Running off with another lord's daughter who's betrothed to another lord is OK but WHOA gotta stop at polygamy? Nah.

[Ygrain]

Pretty cleverly dodges the actual question. Never says they wouldn't be accepted, even if they weren't liked. He's clear that having dragons makes it easier to get away with it, but he always stops short of absolutely shutting it down.

Exactly. I'm really tired of people using this quote as an absolute no-no to polygamy, when it never says anything about "absolutely impossible". On really has to wonder why "sin before gods old and new" which is repeatedly driven home as unacceptable for anyone but Targaryens still gets a free pass several generations after dragons are gone, but polygamy absolutely cannot.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Exactly. I'm really tired of people using this quote as an absolute no-no to polygamy, when it never says anything about "absolutely impossible". On really has to wonder why "sin before gods old and new" which is repeatedly driven home as unacceptable for anyone but Targaryens still gets a free pass several generations after dragons are gone, but polygamy absolutely cannot.

And actually, the other lords should want the Targaryens to be polygamous, because it broadens their political power. If Brother Targ and Sister Targ marry each other, no one else gets a piece of the pie. But if Brother Targ decides to be polygamous and marries a Hightower, Lannister, Dayne, Arryn, whatever, then that extends political authority to those families. A noble house can always try to press a marriage suit to a polygamous Targ, whereas the monogamous incestuous Targ marriage will always lock outsiders out.

[A Crow Come Over]

Exactly. I'm really tired of people using this quote as an absolute no-no to polygamy, when it never says anything about "absolutely impossible". On really has to wonder why "sin before gods old and new" which is repeatedly driven home as unacceptable for anyone but Targaryens still gets a free pass several generations after dragons are gone, but polygamy absolutely cannot.

Is it possible we are getting too caught up in these phrases? So far no one has been smitten for incest or kinslaying.

[Dr. Pepper]

Is it possible we are getting too caught up in these phrases? So far no one has been smitten for incest or kinslaying.

I think the point is that the characters in the story believe the gods smite for incest and kinslaying and violating guest right and such. The characters in the story don't have a godly rule against polygamy.

[A Crow Come Over]

I think the point is that the characters in the story believe the gods smite for incest and kinslaying and violating guest right and such. The characters in the story don't have a godly rule against polygamy.

Kinda my point too, it doesnt matter. These characters can do whatever it is they want (especially if you have dragons or magic)

Really the only one that I think holds water is the Guest Right and only because Bran has gone his whole life learning about how terrible a sin it is and now hes becoming an Old God.

[lareine]

My pick for Rhaegar:

From "The Last Mistress," Fu'ad Ait Aattou

http://www.entertain..._mistress04.jpg

For Lyanna, (Jon Icefyres fav.), Odette Yustman:

http://searchweight....e-yustman-2.jpg

For Brandon Stark, the guy from Sons of Anarchy actually is a good one, but I'm going with Taylor Kitch:

http://ones2watch4.c.../taylor-5_0.jpg

Haha no you're on the getting really bored after 60 straight threads page lol...

I know you've moved on from casting choices, but I got home late and wanted to say I liked your choices.

If I could jump in a time machine, I'd grab Julian Sands in the late 80s/early 90s:

http://en.wikipedia....es_nineties.jpg

And Jennifer Connelly in her Labyrinth days:

http://norandom.com/...labyrinth-16097

They're who I pictured when I read the books.

[Greymoon]

I hope Aegon is the real deal, he would be a good choice as King, Dany as his wife and Jon as Lord Paramount of the North and Beyond The Wall after defeating the WW.

I hope Aegon is fake and usurps the iron throne. I see no indication that he would be a good ruler...he seems a bit temperamental and childish. Jon is one year younger, and far less childish, same with Robb. Neither of them had the sense of entitlement that Aegon demonstrates. I don't like the way he's been acting towards JonCon either...I have the theory that whoever ends up riding Rhaegal will be the King on the IT - though I lean towards the north and riverlands remaining independent.

• Rhaegal >> approximates 'Regal' >> lat. regalis/Rex >> kingly/King
  
• historical figure Regalianus >> Usurper of the Roman Empire....
  

IMO, Aegon will ride Rhaegal.

The dragon's color seem important - Green stands for youth and inexperience (Youn Griff), green stands for life and rebirth (House Blackfyre), and green stands for envy and jealousy (Aegon towards Dany and/or Jon)

As for Jon and Dany I hope they become no more than reluctant allies....

[Greymoon]

And actually, the other lords should want the Targaryens to be polygamous, because it broadens their political power. If Brother Targ and Sister Targ marry each other, no one else gets a piece of the pie. But if Brother Targ decides to be polygamous and marries a Hightower, Lannister, Dayne, Arryn, whatever, then that extends political authority to those families. A noble house can always try to press a marriage suit to a polygamous Targ, whereas the monogamous incestuous Targ marriage will always lock outsiders out.

It does seems as if the Targaryen polygamy is directly tied into the incest...though marriage customs are often due to more than one factor.

Targaryens have generally practice endogamous marriages - not just incest. I think this is important. Aerion Targaryen married Velena Velaryon. Aegon, Rhaenys and Visenya are themselves not issued from a incestuous marriage. Orys Baratheon was supposedly their bastard brother, wasn't he? In a way, house Baratheon was linked to house Targaryen from the very beginning then...anyway, I count a marriage to house Velaryon as 'endogamous', same with a marriage to a fair haired, purple eyed Lysene - that is, if you consider Valyrian blood as a criteria.

As I see it, the blood of dragon lords should not be too diluted, if one hopes to ride a dragon, but at the same time, I believe that Targaryens were aware of the dangers of continuous incest. So, from time to time 'fresh blood' was added into the pool, but I believe that it wasn't done on a completely random basis - though that does not exclude marriages for love.

In the case of Aegon/Rhaenys/Visenya we have incest and sororal polygyny...But polygyny in general, would have allowed a Targaryen male (A) to marry 1) his own sister ( B ) - in order to preserve the 'pure' blood 2) another woman (X) - for adding fresh blood.

These are wide speculations since I don't have proper dates on hand, and it's only a model anyway...but my guess is that the children ( C ) issued from A+B would be married either to an X, or to their cousins - to break with the sibling incest - I'm not saying it happens in the first generation of incest, though that is the case of Rhaegar/Elia.

The children (D) issued from A+X would be free to intermarry if its believed that the risk for madness is lessened (that's the case of Aegon/Rhaenys/Visenya)

Polygyny, would allow many heirs to be born, sharing some blood relationship, but not too much, thus, incidentally widening the 'bride pool' Targaryens could have chosen from without diluting blood too much, and lessening the risk of madness. Viserys I did not have a polygamous marriage but still we see a bit of the pattern here:

First generation:

• Jahaerys + Alysanne
  

Second generation: ?

Third generation:

• Viserys I + Arryn = Rhaenyra (Arryn+Targaryen) + Unknown Targ = Aegon III
  
• Viserys I + Hightower = Aegon II (Hightower + Targaryen) + Unknonw woman = daughter.
  

Fourth generation:

• Rhaenyra + unknown Targ = Aegon III
  
• Aegon II + unknow woman = daughter
  

Fifth generation:

• Aegon III + daughter of Aegon II (cousin incest, political)
  
• Aegon III + daughter of house Velaryon
  

Sixth Generation:

• Baelor son of Aegon III + Daena daughter of Aegon III
  

There's four generation from the sibling incest between Jahaerys and Alysanne and the one between Baelor and Daena. We don't know about Viserys I's parents, I think....what is interesting however is that in spite of there not being sister/brother incest for some generations, the marriages remain endogamous beside for Viserys I marrying Hightower and Arryn - and we don't know about Aegon II's wife...but well. Let’s just suppose, she was Targ related. ;)

What this says, IMO, is that the blood factor did play a role in the Targaryen polygamy custom - same as the need for political clout and occasional exogamous marriage. Though as long as the Targaryens had dragons, this would not have been very necessary.

I wonder....has there ever been polyandry among Targaryens? that would be interesting - for Dany at the very least. Or do you think that GRRM is not making the difference between polyandry and polygyny, and that Targs practice polygamy in the broad sense?

Edit: cleared up the third gen.

[Foothill]

Haha the last few pages really got off the main track a bit.

As far as the polygamy and incest...if you have the power get away with it, anything goes.

[Foothill]

I had to post something funny I heard today, and since this thread has strayed a bit, I figured this is as good a place as any.

A friend of mine as a different take on The Stallion that Mounts the World theory. He believes the "mount" in the prophesy means "fucks" (not sex). And that "stallion" means "crazy."

He believes crazy Dany will got to the Wall with dragons trying to help, but melts a portion of the wall, allowing the others to cross the wall and invade the wall. Thus fulfilling the prophesy of "The Crazy Girl who Fucks the World."

It gave me a good laugh...

[Ghost's Shadow]

Dany's not one of my favourite characters, but I'd never wish her doing that on her fans. :lol:

PS: loved that the thread might have gotten a bit derailed, since the lightness was needed after the never-ending discussion on the theory that has no proof.

I think I saw a thread yesterday or the day before, about theories you like but will never be true. Maybe it fits better there.

[Alia of the knife]

I know you've moved on from casting choices, but I got home late and wanted to say I liked your choices.

If I could jump in a time machine, I'd grab Julian Sands in the late 80s/early 90s:

http://en.wikipedia....es_nineties.jpg

And Jennifer Connelly in her Labyrinth days:

http://norandom.com/...labyrinth-16097

They're who I pictured when I read the books.

Lol, yeah, a little fun on this thread is sometimes sorely needed.

And I've always loved Julian Sands, but wow did he ever need a good agent.

[Alia of the knife]

This quote is up against the backdrop of many people making the arguement that because the Westerosi people have not been vocal in stating their disapproval of these practices that is somehow a default arguement of acceptance of these practices when if the Targaryens have dragons, they would be crazy to voice their disapproval.

The Westerosi lords don’t speak out against incest either, but from what can be gleaned, they also didn’t practice it, (that we know of), until Jamie and Cersie. In fact, we see Joanna take actions to try and stop it when she first finds it.

Martin has been as straightforward as he has ever been in addressing a topic with that particular quote. They accept it by coercion and threat of death because of the presence of the dragons, so his implications are clear.

The Targaryens do as they please so long as they have the back-up of their dragons.

And I think it’s not a matter of what the Targaryens consider “taboo,” as they consider themselves omnipotent, but what the Westerosi people think, which is not clear, so calling other posters “liars” as was done recently, (whether you agree with the poster or not), over such ambiguities takes the debate to a whole different level.

If I had to guess, I think the Westerosi consider it an exclusive "Targaryen thing,” it’s what they do.

I would also add that if indeed Rhaegar was willing to break a betrothal, run off with a highlords daughter, he might well consider putting Elia aside as Cersei is afraid Robert is going to do, “for some new Lyanna.”

And where did Cersei get the notion that she might be, or could be set aside?

I’m ninety-nine percent sure Rhaegar married Lyanna, (I’m never one hundred percent with Martin), but the hypothetical of what his overall intentions were, and how they would really be received is up for speculation. But what Martins quote does do is shine a light on how the Targaryens might have been privately regarded as reflected in the practices that set them apart from the people they ruled.

Also, this quote doesn't just address the sexual practices of the Targaryens, but the overall political landscape they are trying to navigate which I find fascinating . While Rhaegar and Lyanna are an interesting story, there are actually other themes in the book that are just as interesting.

I don't believe Roberts Rebellion happened overnight, but has been quietly fermenting, with resentments churning probably since the last dragon died. Martins quote is essential to this fact as beyond incest and polygamy, (and nobody is going to die, or go to war over Targaryen sex practices), that perhaps other unmentioned abuses, or offences to the Nobles were committed.

I think most Targaryens were politically savvy enough, that even with dragons they understood the necessity of their Nobles "saving face," and keeping their diginity, as there are quite a few families that were and are, truly Targaryen loyalists and thought they were a good thing for the realm.

But, I also think there have been some Targaryens much like Viserys, running round, screaming about the "blood of the dragon," offending their Nobles, so by the time R+L came around, it was an excuse for rebellion, not the cause, and I think the backdrop for those political dynamics are just as fascinating as R+L.

[Alia of the knife]

It does seems as if the Targaryen polygamy is directly tied into the incest...though marriage customs are often due to more than one factor.

Targaryens have generally practice endogamous marriages - not just incest. I think this is important. Aerion Targaryen married Velena Velaryon. Aegon, Rhaenys and Visenya are themselves not issued from a incestuous marriage. Orys Baratheon was supposedly their bastard brother, wasn't he? In a way, house Baratheon was linked to house Targaryen from the very beginning then...anyway, I count a marriage to house Velaryon as 'endogamous', same with a marriage to a fair haired, purple eyed Lysene - that is, if you consider Valyrian blood as a criteria.

As I see it, the blood of dragon lords should not be too diluted, if one hopes to ride a dragon, but at the same time, I believe that Targaryens were aware of the dangers of continuous incest. So, from time to time 'fresh blood' was added into the pool, but I believe that it wasn't done on a completely random basis - though that does not exclude marriages for love.

In the case of Aegon/Rhaenys/Visenya we have incest and sororal polygyny...But polygyny in general, would have allowed a Targaryen male (A) to marry 1) his own sister ( B ) - in order to preserve the 'pure' blood 2) another woman (X) - for adding fresh blood.

These are wide speculations since I don't have proper dates on hand, and it's only a model anyway...but my guess is that the children ( C ) issued from A+B would be married either to an X, or to their cousins - to break with the sibling incest - I'm not saying it happens in the first generation of incest, though that is the case of Rhaegar/Elia.

The children (D) issued from A+X would be free to intermarry if its believed that the risk for madness is lessened (that's the case of Aegon/Rhaenys/Visenya)

Polygyny, would allow many heirs to be born, sharing some blood relationship, but not too much, thus, incidentally widening the 'bride pool' Targaryens could have chosen from without diluting blood too much, and lessening the risk of madness. Viserys I did not have a polygamous marriage but still we see a bit of the pattern here:

First generation:

• Jahaerys + Alysanne
  

Second generation: ?

Third generation:

• Viserys I + Arryn = Rhaenyra (Arryn+Targaryen) + Unknown Targ = Aegon III
  
• Viserys I + Hightower = Aegon II (Hightower + Targaryen) + Unknonw woman = daughter.
  

Fourth generation:

• Rhaenyra + unknown Targ = Aegon III
  
• Aegon II + unknow woman = daughter
  

Fifth generation:

• Aegon III + daughter of Aegon II (cousin incest, political)
  
• Aegon III + daughter of house Velaryon
  

Sixth Generation:

• Baelor son of Aegon III + Daena daughter of Aegon III
  

There's four generation from the sibling incest between Jahaerys and Alysanne and the one between Baelor and Daena. We don't know about Viserys I's parents, I think....what is interesting however is that in spite of there not being sister/brother incest for some generations, the marriages remain endogamous beside for Viserys I marrying Hightower and Arryn - and we don't know about Aegon II's wife...but well. Let’s just suppose, she was Targ related. ;)

What this says, IMO, is that the blood factor did play a role in the Targaryen polygamy custom - same as the need for political clout and occasional exogamous marriage. Though as long as the Targaryens had dragons, this would not have been very necessary.

I wonder....has there ever been polyandry among Targaryens? that would be interesting - for Dany at the very least. Or do you think that GRRM is not making the difference between polyandry and polygyny, and that Targs practice polygamy in the broad sense?

Edit: cleared up the third gen.

Awesome analysis.