Lysa and Baelish Killing Jon Arryn

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think another hint at the Lysa/Baelish conspiracy is when LF tells Catelyn that he lost the valiryan steel dagger in a bet to Tyrion. LF claims Tyrion bet against Jamie in the tilt, & Tyrion insists that he never bets against his family.

While that ties more into who tried to kill Bran, it does suggest that Baelish is lying.

Also, I believe it was Robert who was insisting on fostering Sweetrobin at Casterly Rock.

I don't think anyone was actually planning to foster Sweetrobin at Casterly Rock. The only real plan was to foster him with Stannis. Baelish just told Lysa the plan was to send him to Casterly Rock to scare her into submission. ETA: Apparently Robert thought he was getting shipped to Casterly Rock? I dunno, but someone's lying.

[Usrnmhsnomning]

Yeah, Arryn wanted Robin to foster with Stannis but Lysa thinks he wanted to foster him with Tywin. So someone's not telling the truth or is working on bad intel.

I don't think anyone was actually planning to foster Sweetrobin at Casterly Rock. The only real plan was to foster him with Stannis. Baelish just told Lysa the plan was to send him to Casterly Rock to scare her into submission.

Robert tells Ned in Ned I that Robin is supposed to be sent to Tywin, and he speaks of it like it was a done deal until Lysa leaves for the Vale. So right from the very beginning we hear from the king himself that Robin was being fostered with the Lannisters.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Robert tells Ned in Ned I that Robin is supposed to be sent to Tywin, and he speaks of it like it was a done deal until Lysa leaves for the Vale. So right from the very beginning we hear from the king himself that Robin was being fostered with the Lannisters.

That's weird. I swear the only "real" fostering story is that Jon wanted to send him to Stannis. Unless someone was lying to Robert, too.

ETA: The Wiki seems to think that the real plan was to send the kid to Dragonstone but that Cersei found out about it and tried to convince Robert to ship him to Casterly Rock. Probably so that if the kids' parentage ever got found out, the Lannisters would have a hostage, I'm guessing.

[Stuve]

It's been mentioned in other threads but: Jon was poisoned by the Tears of Lys(a). Also, Alyssa's Tears is a waterfall in the Vale. Neither of these point to LF though, just Lysa.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

Doesn't GRRM have to approve everything that goes 'on-screen' through HBO? Well as soon as you see Jon Arryn laid to rest, you see Jamie and Cersei conversing. And at least from what I remember they make it out to seem like they actually poisoned him. So I wonder if they DID attempt to poison him and Lysa just got to it first? But she was at the Vale & Jon was at KL? Flipping heck I'm confused lol

GRRM sold the rights to ASOIAF so they can do what they want with it. They do involve him and listen to him, but they don't have to.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

It's been mentioned in other threads but: Jon was poisoned by the Tears of Lys(a). Also, Alyssa's Tears is a waterfall in the Vale. Neither of these point to LF though, just Lysa.

Good — and poison is also "a woman's weapon."

[Usrnmhsnomning]

That's weird. I swear the only "real" fostering story is that Jon wanted to send him to Stannis. Unless someone was lying to Robert, too.

I'm only so sure because I started rereading last night. My guess on the fostering stuff is that it's Petyrs manipulations to keep control off of anyone else, Tywin or Stannis, and keeping the control with Lysa and therefore himself. Stannis, knowing that war was likely coming, would definitely want control of Robin and it's in Petyrs best interests to not let that happen.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

That's weird. I swear the only "real" fostering story is that Jon wanted to send him to Stannis. Unless someone was lying to Robert, too.

ETA: The Wiki seems to think that the real plan was to send the kid to Dragonstone but that Cersei found out about it and tried to convince Robert to ship him to Casterly Rock. Probably so that if the kids' parentage ever got found out, the Lannisters would have a hostage, I'm guessing.

Totally agree with this it sounds like something Cersei would use to threaten Jon Arryn if he tries to expose the truth.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm only so sure because I started rereading last night. My guess on the fostering stuff is that it's Petyrs manipulations to keep control off of anyone else, Tywin or Stannis, and keeping the control with Lysa and therefore himself. Stannis, knowing that war was likely coming, would definitely want control of Robin and it's in Petyrs best interests to not let that happen.

Yeah it looks like part of the reason Jon wanted Robert out of the city was for his protection when/if the incest investigation blew open.

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

Robert tells Ned in Ned I that Robin is supposed to be sent to Tywin, and he speaks of it like it was a done deal until Lysa leaves for the Vale. So right from the very beginning we hear from the king himself that Robin was being fostered with the Lannisters.

This was discussed when Ned and Robert were riding to Kings Landing, right before or during talking about Jaime as Warden of the East

[Usrnmhsnomning]

This was discussed when Ned and Robert were riding to Kings Landing, right before or during talking about Jaime as Warden of the East

It was actually discussed while they were exiting the Winterfell crypts.

[Mad Monkey]

It's a binor minor, because it can relate to Cersei, but the whole time we're told that poison is known as a woman's weapon. We just suspected the wrong woman.

In fact, I believe Pycelle's line was that poison is a weapon for women, cravens, and eunuchs. I suppose you can take that to mean that the woman (Lysa) poisoned Jon Arryn at the behest of a craven (LF), and the eunuch (Varys) did nothing to stop it, if he ever knew. We later learn that Varys knows much and more of LF's plots but cares not to stop them, so it's not entirely implausible.

According to Varys's statement, Varys did tryl to rescue Jon Arryn, and Arryn flings a similarly catty comment back at him in dismissal (in the same vein as "poison is a weapon for cravens"):

He was at the door when Ned called, “Varys,” The eunuch turned back. “How did Jon Arryn die?”

“I wondered when you would get around to that.”

“Tell me.”

“The tears of Lys, they call it. A rare and costly thing, clear and sweet as water, and it leaves no trace. I begged Lord Arryn to use a taster, in this very room I begged him, but he would not hear of it. Only one who was less than a man would even think of such a thing, he told me.”

I'm not sure what else Varys could have done. If Jon Arryn himself refused to put any effort into preserving his life, what could Varys really do? He has his own life to live -- he can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped.

Ned (and we) thinks it's in reference to Ser Hugh. It's not — it's a nod to Petyr, and Varys is slyly giving Ned some prodding toward the real murderer, while letting him believe it's the squire (not unlike what he does with Kevan and Aegon, but that's another story).

That whole thing was such bullshit to me. Varys doesn't just slyly hint towards Ser Hugh -- he flat-out tells Ned that's who he meant in the very next sentence he speaks after that hint:

"There was one boy. All he was, he owed Jon Arryn, but when the widow fled to the Eyrie with her household, he stayed in King's Landing and prospered. It always gladdens my heart to see the young rise in the world." The whip was in his voice again, every word a stroke. "He must have cut a gallant figure in the tourney, him in his bright new armor, with those crescent moons on his cloak. A pity he died so untimely, before you could talk to him . . . "

This "clue" is literally worse than nothing at all. Varys's whole description taken as a whole basically refers only to Ser Hugh and not LF. The reader can parse the two parts of his statement as being separate, with the "the whip was in his voice again" bit being the delimiter, but Eddard obviously couldn't see something like that. It was a sly hint for the readers but for Eddard it was just a flat-out deception.

[Maxxwell]

Ned (and we) thinks it's in reference to Ser Hugh. It's not — it's a nod to Petyr, and Varys is slyly giving Ned some prodding toward the real murderer, while letting him believe it's the squire (not unlike what he does with Kevan and Aegon, but that's another story).

Why would Varys lie to Ned about LF? Just asking.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Why would Varys lie to Ned about LF? Just asking.

I don't think he's lying. Just like he's not technically lying to Kevan. He's just letting them draw incorrect conclusions.

This "clue" is literally worse than nothing at all. Varys's whole description taken as a whole basically refers only to Ser Hugh and not LF. The reader can parse the two parts of his statement as being separate, with the "the whip was in his voice again" bit being the delimiter, but Eddard obviously couldn't see something like that. It was a sly hint for the readers but for Eddard it was just a flat-out deception.

I think that's exactly what it is. Varys would probably say he was changing the subject and tough on Ned if he couldn't keep up.

[Dr. Pepper]

I think there's a bit of clue in the scene where Bran overhears Jaime and Cersei before his defenestration. Jaime and Cersei are talking about Lysa's accussations and Lysa sharing a bed, and thus secrets, with Jon Arryn. They talk about how it could be problematic for them with Ned having Robert's ear. They talk about everything being better for them once Joffrey is on the throne. What they never talk about is simply killing Ned in some accident or illness or whatever way. Knowing that Lysa and Littlefinger were the ones to kill Jon Arryn, the lack of discussion on removing Ned from the picture to maintain their secret is a fairly big clue. Of course, they were also committing their treason at the time of this discussion.

The quote of the entire scene is rather long so I'll just pull out a couple of key points, but it's in Bran's second chapter.

“Don’t play the fool. Stannis and Renly are one thing, and Eddard Stark is quite another. Robert will listen to Stark. Damn them both. I should have insisted that he name you, but I was certain Stark would refuse him.”

...

“We will have to watch him carefully,” the woman said.

...

“You fret too much. Lysa Arryn is a frightened cow.”

“That frightened cow shared Jon Arryn’s bed.” “If she knew anything, she would have gone to Robert before she fled King’s Landing.”

...

“Let Lady Arryn grow as bold as she likes. Whatever she knows , whatever she thinks she knows, she has no proof.” He paused a moment. “Or does she?”

“Do you think the king will require proof?” the woman said. “I tell you, he loves me not.”

[coil]

All the ones I recall of are:

1 Varys telling Ned about that "guy from the Vale who quickly arose to power"

1b Varys telling Tyrion his famous riddle is more a way to tell him that it was LF behind Ned's beheading. While it doesn't speak of Jon Arryn, it's a hint that LF is onto something.

1c Varys speaking with Illyrio under the Red Keep. He tells that LF is the second most dangerous man of the realm and that only the gods know what kind of game LF is playing.

Since it's quite early in the whole count of the events, a reader may ask himself what moves had LF already done at the moment. But again, Varys could be talking about the valyrian dagger...

2 Littlefinger himself proves to be a liar more than once, both about the famous dagger (with Tyrion and Lysa), both when speaking about the Tully sisters' virginity (with almost everyone).

2b Littlefinger is completely sure about winning the Vale's alliance and about conquering Lysa Arryn, while he never states anything about Catelyn. It gotta be said however that Starks where already at war with the Lannister, so Catelyn was already out of the equation.

3 Poison is a weapon for cravens and women

4 The whole Sweetrobin situation tells us that something's odd.

Casterly Rock, Dragonstone, the Eyrie?

Imo, Tywin was lying due to pride reasons and Sweetrobin was meant to be fostered at Dragonstone.

But I should reread again about Tywin (he's however very prone to lying, so I'm quite convinced).

5 Crackpot: tears of Lys and the story of Alyssa Arryn's tears who saw her beloved ones to be butchered and never cried... related? Meh.

[Spud the Unburnt]

My understanding of the fostering situation was that Robert wanted to foster Robin with Tywin and when Jon found out he quickly tried to make arrangements with Stannis. This was because he planned to out C&J to Robert and he didn't want his son with the Lannisters.

[Mychel_Redfort]

I'd kind of like to work backward though, and see how much material there is leading up the reveal that might have given it away. I firmly believe that GRRM doesn't do "gotcha" moments, so much as he leaves clues that you may or may not pick up. So let's hunt for clues about Lysa, Petyr and Jon.

We could have guessed right at the end of "A Game of Thrones", with these two clues :

The first one is from Eddard VI, Ned thinks of the four people still in King's Landing that have met Jon Arryn. It shows exactly what Jon wanted to do with his son :

It sounded as if this boy would be even less use than the others. And he was the last of the four Littlefinger had turned up. Jory had spoken to each of them in turn. Ser Hugh had been brusque and uninformative, and arrogant as only a newmade knight can be. If the Hand wished to talk to him, he should be pleased to receive him, but he would not be questioned by a mere captain of guards... even if said captain was ten years older and a hundred times the swordsman. The serving girl had at least been pleasant. She said Lord Jon had been reading more than was good for him, that he was troubled and melancholy over his young son's frailty, and gruff with his lady wife. The potboy, now cordwainer, had never exchanged so much as a word with Lord Jon, but he was full of oddments of kitchen gossip: the lord had been quarreling with the king, the lord only picked at his food, the lord was sending his boy to be fostered on Dragonstone, the lord had taken a great interest in the breeding of hunting hounds, the lord had visited a master armorer to commission a new suit of plate, wrought all in pale silver with a blue jasper falcon and a mother-of-pearl moon on the breast. The king's own brother had gone with him to help choose the design, the potboy said. No, not Lord Renly, the other one, Lord Stannis.

The second one is from Catelyn VIII, Catelyn remembers how she left the Eyrie. It shows what Lysa threatens to do if someone wants to take her son away from her :

She ought not to be so open in her contempt, she knew, but her parting from the Eyrie had not been pleasant. She had offered to take Lord Robert with her, to foster him at Winterfell for a few years. The company of other boys would do him good, she had dared to suggest. Lysa's rage had been frightening to behold. "Sister or no," she had replied, "if you try to steal my son, you will leave by the Moon Door." After that there was no more to be said.

[Valandui]

Doesn't GRRM have to approve everything that goes 'on-screen' through HBO? Well as soon as you see Jon Arryn laid to rest, you see Jamie and Cersei conversing. And at least from what I remember they make it out to seem like they actually poisoned him. So I wonder if they DID attempt to poison him and Lysa just got to it first? But she was at the Vale & Jon was at KL? Flipping heck I'm confused lol

It could also be interpreted as them just being relieved that he died before he could tell Robert.

[Usrnmhsnomning]

"Lord Tywin has already given his consent. Fostering the boy elsewhere would be a grievous affront to him"

Roberts exact words