POV "Deaths" and Implications for Jon Snow

[Not Dead Just Broken]

I've read a lot of commentary on these boards claiming that Jon Snow isn't dead because GRRM has a habit of feigning the deaths of POV characters. People also, mistakenly, claim that Ned is the only POV character (excluding prologues and epilogues) to stay dead. So, I decided to go back and list off ten times we thought POV characters might be dead.

1. Who? Bran Stark

When? AGOT, Jaime pushes him out of a window

His Own POV? Yes.

What Actually Happened? He ends up in a long coma and becomes paralyzed below the waist

2. Who? Eddard Stark

When? AGOT, When Ilyn Payne cuts his head off

His Own POV? No. Arya's

What Actually Happened? Decapitation? Lethal in your species? Yes, Zoidberg, Yes.

3. Who? Theon Greyjoy

When? ACOK, when Ramsay burns Winterfell

His Own POV? Yes.

What Actually Happened? He's taken prisoner and tortured.

4. Who? Davos Seaworth

When? ACOK, Battle of Blackwater

His Own POV? Yes.

What Actually Happened? He miraculously survives because... GRRM says so, that's why

5. Who? Tyrion Lannister

When? ACOK, Battle of Blackwater, Mandon Moore tries to kill him

His Own POV? Yes.

What Actually Happened? His nose is sliced off. Podrick saves him.

6. Who? Catelyn Stark

When? ASOS, Red Wedding, Throat slashed

Her Own POV? Yes.

What Actually Happened? She died. Stayed dead for three days and then rises from the grave... to kill Freys not save your soul.

7. Who? Arya Stark

When? ASOS, Red Wedding, Hound comes at her with an axe

Her Own POV? Yes.

What Actually Happened? The Hound saves her by knocking her out with the axe

8. Who? Arys Oakheart

When? AFFC, Plot to Crown Myrcella, runs into a blade.

His own POV? No. Arianne's.

What Actually Happened? He died.

Who? Brienne of Tarth

When? AFFC, Trial by Lady Stoneheart

Her Own POV? Yes.

What Actually Happened? She screams a word and lives

9. Who? Asha Greyjoy

When? ADWD, Battle near Deepwood Motte

Her Own POV? Yes.

What Actually Happened? Captured by Stannis Baratheon's forces.

10. Who? Quentyn Martell

When? ADWD, How Not to Train Your Dragon

His Own POV? Yes.

What Actually Happened? Fire and Blood. He died.

Do we have a lot of fake deaths? Yes. Is there a conclusive pattern? No. Of the ten events I've described, there were four POV deaths. Yes, Cat came back but she definitely died at the Red Wedding. So 3 and a half? Quentyn and Cat die in their own POV's. Ned and Arys die in other people's POV's. I don't see anything in this pattern to say that Jon is definitively alive.

[yolkboy]

I've read a lot of commentary on these boards claiming that Jon Snow isn't dead because GRRM has a habit of feigning the deaths of POV characters.

I don't think this is really the basis for people believing Jon is still alive at all, from what I've read.

Plot armour is more like it.

[TheMysteriousOne]

IIRC, Quentyn didn't die in his POV.

ETA: I was right, he died four days later in one of Barristan's chapters.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

POV characters never die in their own chapters. Ned died in Arya's. Arys died in Arianne's. Quentyn died in Barristan's.

Cat died in her own POV and didn't stay dead. That's why people say Jon can't have died.

Not that it's the only reason to suspect he's alive or will come back to life.

ETA: I didn't notice when I hit 1000 posts. Belated toast to myself! :cheers:

[Not Dead Just Broken]

I don't think this is really the basis for people believing Jon is still alive at all, from what I've read.

Plot armour is more like it.

Not the only argument, I grant, but it's the most annoying because it isn't backed up by the books.

[Ser Creighton]

The deaths are not fake, if they didn't die then the death was never fake nor was it said they died. Cat is the only sort of fake death that fits your criteria. The death a POV only occurs in someone else's chapter. That is the only actual way to witness the death. Martell did not die in his own POV he dies in Selmy's.

[Not Dead Just Broken]

IIRC, Quentyn didn't die in his POV.

ETA: I was right, he died four days later in one of Barristan's chapters.

Really? So, if we get a Mel chapter in Winds where Jon dies of his wounds will you be happy?

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

Really? So, if we get a Mel chapter in Winds where Jon dies of his wounds will you be happy?

That would make a lot of us unhappy, but it would be the only way to confirm he's really dead. Jon's arc is clearly incomplete, so it's reasonable to suspect he isn't dead. Or at least not permanently dead.

[TheMysteriousOne]

That would make a lot of us unhappy, but it would be the only way to confirm he's really dead. Jon's arc is clearly incomplete, so it's reasonable to suspect he isn't dead. Or at least not permanently dead.

This.

[Ser Creighton]

That would make a lot of us unhappy, but it would be the only way to confirm he's really dead. Jon's arc is clearly incomplete, so it's reasonable to suspect he isn't dead. Or at least not permanently dead.

3 daggered.

[Lord of Beyond the Wall]

Jon is alive because protagonists are bulletproof.

[DreamSongs]

Jon is alive because protagonists are bulletproof.

You will never convince me that ANYONE is bulletproof after Robb's death :D Not in this series!

[Sansa's Florian]

Davos has had two fake deaths. The Blackwater Battle, and the Cersei chapter in Feast. Where it says his head and hands are nailed to the White Harbor gate.

[Not Dead Just Broken]

That would make a lot of us unhappy, but it would be the only way to confirm he's really dead. Jon's arc is clearly incomplete, so it's reasonable to suspect he isn't dead. Or at least not permanently dead.

Whether or not a character dies of their wounds in their own POV is fairly inconsequential. Quentyn is all but dead in his own POV. The fact that he lies around and dies for a few days is irrelevant. I'm not of the position that Jon is for sure dead. The point is that just because we saw the attack from Jon's POV, doesn't mean he's going to survive it. I'm not positive he stays dead either.

The "narrative arc" argument relies on R+L=J being both true and important. I think it's funny that people talk up Benioff and Weiss having to guess Jon's parentage when they met with GRRM to pitch the show but they don't talk about all the evidence for R+L=J being left out of the show entirely. If GRRM thinks HBO can tell his story without Jon's parentage being important, maybe it isn't important. Outside of R+L=J, his arc is almost exactly at the same point Robb's was when he died. Both men had made a stupid mistake with a Karstark, had pissed off a powerful person (Walder Frey, Queen Selyse) and were about to lead an attack on the enemy (Moat Cailin, Winterfell). Unfinished business doesn't mean you survive in ASOIAF.

Davos has had two fake deaths. The Blackwater Battle, and the Cersei chapter in Feast. Where it says his head and hands are nailed to the White Harbor gate.

Good point. Although not really the same because we don't have the cliffhanger "are they dead?" moment from his, or someone else's POV on the scene. Still, doesn't really tell us anything in terms of a defined pattern.

[Newstar]

IIRC, Quentyn didn't die in his POV.

ETA: I was right, he died four days later in one of Barristan's chapters.

Quite right. He got flambeed, but as we're thoughtfully informed by Barristan, his actual death occurred much later, with a confirmed body to show for it. (ASOIAF seems to operate by soap opera rules: no body, no death, and sometimes even where there is a body.)

I never thought about it, but if no POV characters die in their own POVs but only when seen by other POVs, by logical extension I guess this means Bran, Sansa, and Arya are safe as long as they stay the hell away from other POV characters. Arya better make herself scarce if one of the Essos POVs--Dany, Tyrion, Victarion, or Barristan--come sniffing around, and Sansa better hunker down in the Vale and pray that Jaime and/or Brienne don't come calling. :D

[H'ghar the Horribler]

The deaths are not fake, if they didn't die then the death was never fake nor was it said they died. Cat is the only sort of fake death that fits your criteria. The death a POV only occurs in someone else's chapter. That is the only actual way to witness the death. Martell did not die in his own POV he dies in Selmy's.

I saw a similar sentiment on the boards earlier, got me thinking. Maester Cressen's the POV in the prologue to ACOK, and he dies at the end. Do you exclude prologues when talking of POV's?

[TheMysteriousOne]

I saw a similar sentiment on the boards earlier, got me thinking. Maester Cressen's the POV in the prologue to ACOK, and he dies at the end. Do you exclude prologues when talking of POV's?

Yes. We exclude prologue and epilogues.

[Newstar]

I saw a similar sentiment on the boards earlier, got me thinking. Maester Cressen's the POV in the prologue to ACOK, and he dies at the end. Do you exclude prologues when talking of POV's?

The prologue/epilogue dudes always die in their POVs. (I guess I'd better add to my death avoidance advice that Bran, Arya and Sansa need to stay the hell away from prologues/epilogues, LOL.)

[Ser Creighton]

I will tell you why Jon is alive, Jon never got the 3 words of death, he got close to it but never the big 3. The raven alerts you to all the Danger coming in Jon's final chapter of Dance.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

Whether or not a character dies of their wounds in their own POV is fairly inconsequential. Quentyn is all but dead in his own POV. The fact that he lies around and dies for a few days is irrelevant. I'm not of the position that Jon is for sure dead. The point is that just because we saw the attack from Jon's POV, doesn't mean he's going to survive it. I'm not positive he stays dead either.

The "narrative arc" argument relies on R+L=J being both true and important. I think it's funny that people talk up Benioff and Weiss having to guess Jon's parentage when they met with GRRM to pitch the show but they don't talk about all the evidence for R+L=J being left out of the show entirely. If GRRM thinks HBO can tell his story without Jon's parentage being important, maybe it isn't important. Outside of R+L=J, his arc is almost exactly at the same point Robb's was when he died. Both men had made a stupid mistake with a Karstark, had pissed off a powerful person (Walder Frey, Queen Selyse) and were about to lead an attack on the enemy (Moat Cailin, Winterfell). Unfinished business doesn't mean you survive in ASOIAF.

The show isn't the books. They delay things all the time. During season 2 many assumed Ramsay and the Reeds were being cut. They're taking their time introducing this kind of stuff. Jon's parentage was mentioned a couple of times though. They invented a scene between Jon and Ned where they discussed it. Qhorin mocks him about to induce Jon to fight him. The HotU showed snow in the throne room and Dany at the wall.

It isn't fair to compare him to Robb at this point. Robb was playing the game of thrones. He was the avenging son who failed in his mission. Jon is shaping up to be a pivotal figure in the song of ice and fire. He's having prophetic dreams. We need a NW and Wall POV. Melisandre's at the wall but she isn't of the NW. It's not so much that Jon himself has unfinished business, it's his place in the story that is unfinished. That's the difference IMO.

For what it's worth, I don't necessarily think that it's impossible for a POV character to die in his/her own chapter. It's just that that's the pattern so far. GRRM can change his mind at any time though.