POV "Deaths" and Implications for Jon Snow

[Newstar]

I will tell you why Jon is alive, Jon never got the 3 words of death, he got close to it but never the big 3. The raven alerts you to all the Danger coming in Jon's final chapter of Dance.

3 words of death...?

The OP forgot about Tyrion's death by drowning POV fakeout in ADWD, when he falls into the river and passes out.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Not the only argument, I grant, but it's the most annoying because it isn't backed up by the books.

But it is backed up by the books. As a pattern, people don't die (and stay dead) in their own POVs unless it's an epilogue or a prologue. And having this cliffhanger with Jon only for him to die in Melisandre's POV in the next book is pretty terrible writing. If he was dead, it'd be explicit and there'd be no need for the cliffhanger. You don't have a cliffhanger just to see the guy fall off the cliff.

[Fishstick]

Well, I found an interview in which GRRM stated that Jon (not just the reader) will find out the identity of his parents:

http://bookclubs.barnesandnoble.com/t5/Center-Stage/George-R-R-Martin-The-Books/td-p/167742/page/2

Kinda hard to find out about unkown parents if you're dead. It's from 2008, so he might have changed his mind since then, but I really doubt it.

[Not Dead Just Broken]

The show isn't the books. They delay things all the time. During season 2 many assumed Ramsay and the Reeds were being cut. They're taking their time introducing this kind of stuff. Jon's parentage was mentioned a couple of times though. They invented a scene between Jon and Ned where they discussed it. Qhorin mocks him about to induce Jon to fight him. The HotU showed snow in the throne room and Dany at the wall.

It isn't fair to compare him to Robb at this point. Robb was playing the game of thrones. He was the avenging son who failed in his mission. Jon is shaping up to be a pivotal figure in the song of ice and fire. He's having prophetic dreams. We need a NW and Wall POV. Melisandre's at the wall but she isn't of the NW. It's not so much that Jon himself has unfinished business, it's his place in the story that is unfinished. That's the difference IMO.

For what it's worth, I don't necessarily think that it's impossible for a POV character to die in his/her own chapter. It's just that that's the pattern so far. GRRM can change his mind at any time though.

The Ned-Jon scene serves as foreshadowing for Ned's death. We'll talk when we meet again = we'll never meet again. Prophesy is dangerous. Rhaego was to be the Stallion that Mounts The World, remember. I'm not entirely sure why we need a NW POV at this point. The Watch is decimated. Mel and Bran give us plenty of perspective on the war on the wall. Plus, there's always the possibility of Theon Greyjoy ending up there as well.

I will tell you why Jon is alive, Jon never got the 3 words of death, he got close to it but never the big 3. The raven alerts you to all the Danger coming in Jon's final chapter of Dance.

I'm trying to remember the "corn" theory. Three corns. Can they be interrupted? Or do they have to be in direct succession?

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

The point of the prologue was seeing how Varamyr warged at death, and Bran learned similar. Jon is not dead. He was reaching for Ghost, and will recover.

[Lord of Beyond the Wall]

The point of the prologue was seeing how Varamyr warged at death, and Bran learned similar. Jon is not dead. He was reaching for Ghost, and will recover.

But my Lady, if Jon's body is dead and his spirit/soul or whatever is inside of Ghost waiting for some kind of resurrection then (if) when he's "resuscitated" he wouldn't change at all so I believe that if he'll return as an UnJon he'd have to die completely (like Beric and Cat) ? I'm wrong with this?

[Dire-Lion]

But my Lady, if Jon's body is dead and his spirit/soul or whatever is inside of Ghost waiting for some kind of resurrection then (if) when he's "resuscitated" he wouldn't change at all so I believe that if he'll return as an UnJon he'd have to die completely (like Beric and Cat) ? I'm wrong with this?

Warging and rising from the dead are different, so if he warged he would not be as affected as Beric and Cat are. Is that what you are trying to say? I'm just trying to make sure

[Dr. Pepper]

I think Dany should probably be added to the list. We see her last in Meereen thinking about how her heart is going to burst, she's dizzy, people are throwing spears and stuff at her, there's a lot of fire, and she's excited about Drogon flying. Then we have several chapters of all sorts of characters talking about how she's dead because they saw her on fire or saw her fall off Drogon. We know she didn't die. Not just because it was such sketchy witness testimonies or because she had a POV later in the text, but because we know people don't die and stay dead in their own chapters outside of the prologues and epilogues, which exist for people to do. There's a clear pattern.

The "narrative arc" argument relies on R+L=J being both true and important. I think it's funny that people talk up Benioff and Weiss having to guess Jon's parentage when they met with GRRM to pitch the show but they don't talk about all the evidence for R+L=J being left out of the show entirely. If GRRM thinks HBO can tell his story without Jon's parentage being important, maybe it isn't important. Outside of R+L=J, his arc is almost exactly at the same point Robb's was when he died. Both men had made a stupid mistake with a Karstark, had pissed off a powerful person (Walder Frey, Queen Selyse) and were about to lead an attack on the enemy (Moat Cailin, Winterfell). Unfinished business doesn't mean you survive in ASOIAF.

The show is the show. They've spent a pretty decent amount of screen time building up the story of Jon's parentage. His mother being a mystery has been brought up in each season so far and there is plot development slowly but surely happening to tell the story of how Jon came to be. Not that this matters as, without knowing the specifics of the contract between GRRM and HBO, we have no way of knowing if D&D are beholden to following all of the plots and character developments of the books. It's an adaptation. This is a book forum.

If Jon's parentage wasn't important in some way, it likely wouldn't exist as a mystery in the story. He'd just be the son of a fisherman's daughter.

[Dr. Pepper]

But my Lady, if Jon's body is dead and his spirit/soul or whatever is inside of Ghost waiting for some kind of resurrection then (if) when he's "resuscitated" he wouldn't change at all so I believe that if he'll return as an UnJon he'd have to die completely (like Beric and Cat) ? I'm wrong with this?

He'd definitely change, presuming he spent significant time locked inside Ghost. The 'self' starts to fade away during the second life. Bran had troubles returning to his own skin after being in Summer's skin for a few days, and his body wasn't dead. Then there's the problem of being returned to a body that has begun decomposing. Even if it's slowed or nearly halted due to the cold temps at the wall, his body will still have been dead for a time and everyone would have seen his body dead for a time. If his body has been dead, he'd likely still have several gaping, unhealed stab wounds. With all of the info we've been given across several POV's, I can't imagine he comes back from this stabbing all hunky dory, same-old, same-old Jon.

[Pod The Impaler]

I've read a lot of commentary on these boards claiming that Jon Snow isn't dead because GRRM has a habit of feigning the deaths of POV characters. People also, mistakenly, claim that Ned is the only POV character (excluding prologues and epilogues) to stay dead. So, I decided to go back and list off ten times we thought POV characters might be dead.

1. Who? Bran Stark

When? AGOT, Jaime pushes him out of a window

His Own POV? Yes.

What Actually Happened? He ends up in a long coma and becomes paralyzed below the waist

2. Who? Eddard Stark

When? AGOT, When Ilyn Payne cuts his head off

His Own POV? No. Arya's

What Actually Happened? Decapitation? Lethal in your species? Yes, Zoidberg, Yes.

3. Who? Theon Greyjoy

When? ACOK, when Ramsay burns Winterfell

His Own POV? Yes.

What Actually Happened? He's taken prisoner and tortured.

4. Who? Davos Seaworth

When? ACOK, Battle of Blackwater

His Own POV? Yes.

What Actually Happened? He miraculously survives because... GRRM says so, that's why

5. Who? Tyrion Lannister

When? ACOK, Battle of Blackwater, Mandon Moore tries to kill him

His Own POV? Yes.

What Actually Happened? His nose is sliced off. Podrick saves him.

6. Who? Catelyn Stark

When? ASOS, Red Wedding, Throat slashed

Her Own POV? Yes.

What Actually Happened? She died. Stayed dead for three days and then rises from the grave... to kill Freys not save your soul.

7. Who? Arya Stark

When? ASOS, Red Wedding, Hound comes at her with an axe

Her Own POV? Yes.

What Actually Happened? The Hound saves her by knocking her out with the axe

8. Who? Arys Oakheart

When? AFFC, Plot to Crown Myrcella, runs into a blade.

His own POV? No. Arianne's.

What Actually Happened? He died.

Who? Brienne of Tarth

When? AFFC, Trial by Lady Stoneheart

Her Own POV? Yes.

What Actually Happened? She screams a word and lives

9. Who? Asha Greyjoy

When? ADWD, Battle near Deepwood Motte

Her Own POV? Yes.

What Actually Happened? Captured by Stannis Baratheon's forces.

10. Who? Quentyn Martell

When? ADWD, How Not to Train Your Dragon

His Own POV? Yes.

What Actually Happened? Fire and Blood. He died.

Adding Tyrion's "drowning" in the Rhoyne was already mentioned by someone else.

You might also be able to add the tunnel collapsing on Arya when she's escaping the holdfast from Amory Lorch's men. Not certain if that looked like a death, or just darkness and despair.

Finally, Jaime being hanged is still something where we have to see how it turns out. Put that as "results pending". :cool4:

Quentyn died in Barristan's.

Only because he lingered for three days after getting the burns that killed him.

[Le Dragone]

The "narrative arc" argument relies on R+L=J being both true and important. I think it's funny that people talk up Benioff and Weiss having to guess Jon's parentage when they met with GRRM to pitch the show...

Why would he ask this question at the pitch meeting if it wasn't important? And why would D&D make it look like this was the question that sealed the deal in their first meeting? Now that's not necessarily true, but I doubt they would mention this incident in more than one interview if the answer was something trivial.

but they don't talk about all the evidence for R+L=J being left out of the show entirely. If GRRM thinks HBO can tell his story without Jon's parentage being important, maybe it isn't important.

GRRM is merely a consultant on the show, D&D have the final word as to what appears on screen. If Martin thinks that the story can't be told without the foreshadowing for R+L=J, and D&D think it shouldn't appear now, it won't. And the show usually delays things for budgetary and technical reasons.

Other than this, there is just too much foreshadowing for R+L=J in the books for it to be dismissed on account of the show not including all the necessary foreshadowing in the first three seasons.

[Lord of Beyond the Wall]

Warging and rising from the dead are different, so if he warged he would not be as affected as Beric and Cat are. Is that what you are trying to say? I'm just trying to make sure

I think he need to "come back" changed in some ways, maybe with his warg powers and dragon dreams fully awake, I mean if he is truly AAR is in this moment when the change have to occur but if he is just in the body of Ghost he'll not be change at all. is like if he is in a state of comma. IDK if that make sense.

[Okaythen]

Why would he ask this question at the pitch meeting if it wasn't important? And why would D&D make it look like this was the question that sealed the deal in their first meeting? Now that's not necessarily true, but I doubt they would mention this incident in more than one interview if the answer was something trivial.

I do believe in R+L=J but as I have said in other threads the pitch meeting in no way backs the theory up.

The point of the story is to demonstrate that D&D are genuine fans of the series and not just hacks wanting to milk GRRMs work for cash.

[Le Dragone]

I do believe in R+L=J but as I have said in other threads the pitch meeting in no way backs the theory up.

The point of the story is to demonstrate that D&D are genuine fans of the series and not just hacks wanting to milk GRRMs work for cash.

The pitch meeting doesn't back up R+L=J specifically, but it shows that there is more to Jon's parentage than him being just a bastard of Ned Stark, or at the very least it shows that it is in fact an important question and not something trivial, unlike what OP said.

[Okaythen]

The pitch meeting doesn't back up R+L=J specifically, but it shows that there is more to Jon's parentage than him being just a bastard of Ned Stark, or at the very least it shows that it is in fact an important question and not something trivial, unlike what OP said.

Not really. Using Jons parentage as a litmus test doesn't mean anything other than GRRM is aware it's a hot topic for fans.

[The Ash Tree]

Not really. Using Jons parentage as a litmus test doesn't mean anything other than GRRM is aware it's a hot topic for fans.

Umm, yes it does. David and Dan made a big deal out of this question and answer because it is not something obvious like Ned+Wylla. which is the answer that any casual reader would give at first. In fact they made it look like that was the question that decided the whole thing, and that again, is because it's clearly an important question.

[Ser Creighton]

3 words of death...?

The OP forgot about Tyrion's death by drowning POV fakeout in ADWD, when he falls into the river and passes out.

Jon Snow longer lives, but Jon is still alive, the Corn has spoken. It's all in the code. Jon's last name getting the axe, Jon being put at mortal peril, the location it would happen at. It was all in Martin's 3 code. Come join the children of the Corn, we are the all knowing, we speak Martins language of death, boogy boogy, boogy.

There is a certain 3 patterned code in the books used mostly by Mormonts Raven, and Hodor, that indicates when someone is going to get killed. It's called the corn code though that is not the only word used. Good exaples of the code at work can be found in the prologues of Kings and Swords. The pattern is verbal text, like the raven saying corn. It looks like this. "Corn, Corn, Corn." or "Meat, Meat, Meat." The punctuation can very a some "Man! Man! Man!" The code has minor variations that will indicate weather or not it is happening in the future or if the subject has a chance to live.

It's a theory I wrote about 3 patterns. like it confirms Benjen Stark is dead, and that Jojen and Meera are in the cross hairs.

[Okaythen]

Umm, yes it does. David and Dan made a big deal out of this question and answer because it is not something obvious like Ned+Wylla. which is the answer that any casual reader would give at first. In fact they made it look like that was the question that decided the whole thing, and that again, is because it's clearly an important question.

How does any of that change what I said? I already said that D&D implied it was a litmus test (another way of saying it for sealed the deal). My point is that that doesn't mean anything in regards to the story.

Implied situation - GRRM wants to see if the people who want to make his show care about his work. He asks them who they think Jons Mother is as it is one of the books unaswered questions.

Possible answers -

L+R=J, with explanation of why they think this is the case - Either A) It's true and Martin is thrilled as they picked up on the clues or - B- It's not true but Martin is thrilled because the theory makes sense in the context of the story and is a fan favourite theory.

AD, with an explanation of why they think this is the case - See above minus the fan favourite part

Wylla/Some tavern wench, with an explanation of why they think this is the case (A) This is true and Martin is happy because they have thought about it and are able to back it up or B -This is false but Martin is happy that they have given it some thought.

The only time I could have imagined they would have failed is if they answered "Wylla cos that guy said" or "We don't know at this point".

I have seen loads of people argue against R+J=L with their interpretations of the text that back it up. Sure I don't agree with the interpretations and I think they are crazy ( :P) but I wouldn't accuse them of not being fans or not caring about the story just because they disagree with me.

Also R+L=J is fairly obvious in GOT. As a casual reader I picked up on it and was greatly annoyed when I finished the series and came to the internet to let you all know only to find it was old news :crying:

[Ghost's Shadow]

Sometimes, in that pinned thread, people come in and say how their show only family has guessed who Jon's parents are, so they are doing their job on the show as well.

[Not Dead Just Broken]

The show is the show. They've spent a pretty decent amount of screen time building up the story of Jon's parentage. His mother being a mystery has been brought up in each season so far and there is plot development slowly but surely happening to tell the story of how Jon came to be. Not that this matters as, without knowing the specifics of the contract between GRRM and HBO, we have no way of knowing if D&D are beholden to following all of the plots and character developments of the books. It's an adaptation. This is a book forum.

If Jon's parentage wasn't important in some way, it likely wouldn't exist as a mystery in the story. He'd just be the son of a fisherman's daughter.

I agree, it's a book forum. However, if we're looking for hints as to what is and isn't important, the show can provide some spoilers. For instance, I'm far more convinced that Jeyne Westerling had a miscarriage after watching the show version of the Red Wedding. If Robb's son was going to be a major factor in the last two books, they probably don't kill him off on the show. Excluding Wyllas Tyrell is probably another hint that his character isn't as important as book readers may have assumed. I brought up the point about the lack of R+L=J evidence on the show because I wanted to undermine the assumption of its importance that people take from the pitch meeting.

My point here, is about the books. The question I was asked is how Jon could be dead with an incomplete narrative arc and my response was that it's only incomplete if you think he's a secret Targaryen and that somehow that gives him claim to the Iron Throne or Winterfell or whatever. Otherwise, Jon's done his job, narrative arc wise. I've laid it out in detail before but it probably should be repeated here. Jon Snow's story is about the Night's Watch's fall from grace.

So, at the beginning of AGOT, the Watch seems to be in pretty good shape. Benjen is First Ranger and he's a Stark of Winterfell and all around nice guy. Jeor Mormont is Lord Commander. He's wise, he's tough and he knows how to maximize the potential of the people he has. Aemon Targaryen is Maester and is about the wisest Maester around. We also meet a band of misfits who could, in a classic Hollywood Mighty Ducks type deal, turn into a really good Wight fighting force. Jon wins all of these guys over and everyone is learning. Then, the fall begins. Benjen Stark goes missing. Then, the Old Bear decides to lead a mass ranging North of the Wall to figure out what the heck is going on. We meet Craster and learn that the NW tolerates this monster. Qhorin Halfhand, the grizzled veteran, is killed in a scouting mission. The main force of the NW is destroyed by the White Walkers. Then, the Watch turns on itself. They leave Sam to die. They stage a coup against Jeor Mormont and break the laws of hospitality by killing Craster. After all this, Jon manages to save the watch from the attacks of the Wildlings. Sam manages to broker a temporary internal peace by making Jon LC. It seems that the Watch may last after all. Then Jon starts making mistakes. He sends away his allies including an aged Maester Aemon who clearly won't survive the journey. He does this because he can't stand up Stannis and Melisandre. He gives away the Gift. He lets Wildlings into the Watch even though they have absolutely no stake in defending the Seven Kingdoms. He weakens the strength of the NW by trying to man the abandoned towers when he doesn't have enough men to do the job. He kills a respected and powerful member of the Night's Watch because he defied him. He takes part in Westerosi politics by marrying Alys Karstark to a wildling. He orders a doomed ranging to relieve Hardhome. Finally, he plans to lead a Wildling army against the current Lord of Winterfell in the middle of a terrible blizzard.

When he's stabbed repeatedly, the Night's Watch is pretty much at a low point. Jon's story is only not complete if you assume his story is a comedy (this would include the Dany/Jon wedding that's so popular around here). If, however, you assume that his story is tragedy, that he is a Julius Caesar figure bound to destroy everything around him and be destroyed in turn, then his narrative arc is finished. He's done all the damage he can do.