TheTowerOfJoy Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 This. Ned was stupid to expect that Sansa's voice would have any weight against Cersei's.Cersei wasn't there, so no idea what her word has to do with anything, other than her influence over Robert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ash Tree Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 While it's certainly true that attacking Joffrey is a crime in and of itself, I don't believe Robert would have had the same reaction to the situation if he'd known that Joffrey was being such a turd, and I explicitly stated that I thought that Joffrey and Cersei would call her a liar, but that doesn't mean that Sansa was blameless for refusing to tell the truth.Blameless for what? Lying or Lady's death? If a kid lies about stealing candy from a box in a kitchen and a parent decides to kill someone else over it, does that mean that the first kid is to blame for this death? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickStormborn Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 Ned and Robert were to blame, really.I don't particularly blame Cersei for this one because she's completely correct: the direwolves are dangerous. She even has proof from Joffrey's injuries. But Ned should have refused, and Robert should have told Cersei that he would not have Lady executed for Nymeria's actions.Sansa was innocent. Nothing she said would have changed the verdict. Cersei wanted the direwolves killed because they were dangerous; as soon as one attacked Joffrey, the result was always going to be the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ash Tree Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 Ned and Robert were to blame, really.I don't particularly blame Cersei for this one because she's completely correct: the direwolves are dangerous. She even has proof from Joffrey's injuries. But Ned should have refused, and Robert should have told Cersei that he would not have Lady executed for Nymeria's actions.Cersei did not want to he DW killed because she was concerned about the safety of children in KL. She did it because she is a bloodthirsty psycho.ETA: And Cersei is not completely correct, Lady was no more dangerous than any dog. In fact Balerion the cat is more dangerous that Lady. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 Cersei wasn't there, so no idea what her word has to do with anything, other than her influence over Robert.And her word sentenced Lady to death, so I say her word is rather powerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bippy Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 Not that anyone should hate her for it, it's her wolf that gets killed.How about Mycah? His death is absolutely linked to Lady's in time and emotional impact.In all honesty, I'm not a troll. I was convinced at first that she's to blame. But when all these people started to correct me and made very good arguments against me I changed my mind pretty quickly, except that I was in denial and didn't want to admit that I was wrong.Sorry but your avatar cracks me up. SAD OWL SEES HE WAS WRONG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Littlefingers In The Air Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 Blameless for what? Lying or Lady's death? If a kid lies about stealing candy from a box in a kitchen and a parent decides to kill someone else over it, does that mean that the first kid is to blame for this death? really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ash Tree Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 really?Really what? You think my example does not apply here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonin Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 So you don't think that Sansa testifying that Joffrey was about to strike Mycah with a sword, after cutting him on the cheek, and then turning on Arya when she tried to stop him (causing the Direwolf to attack him in defense of Arya) would have had any bearing on Robert's decision to allow Lady to be killed? Interesting...The text doesn't say that Joffrey was about to strike Mycah with a sword.. Arya attacked Joffrey from behind with a stick, striking him in the back of the head. Nymeria attacks Joffrey later after Joffrey turns and attacks Arya. Its difficult to support Joffrey the jerk, but the 'truth' about the episode does not exonerate Arya from attacking the Crown Prince which is a serious crime nor would it excuse Nymeria's attack on Joffrey. Arya and Sansa are two of my favorite charaters... but there isn't going to be a good outcome from this incident."Sansa was afraid. "Arya, you stay out of this." I won't hurt him much," Prince Joffrey told Arya, never taking his eyes off the butcher's boy. Arya went for him. Sansa slid off her mare, but she was too slow. Arya swung with both hands. There was a loud crack as the wood split against the back of the prince's head, and then everything happened at once before Sansa's horrified eys." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BanzaiZ Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 How about Mycah? His death is absolutely linked to Lady's in time and emotional impact.How is Sansa responsible for Mycah's death? She told Ned what happened right after the incident. Mycah was hunted down and murdered in cold-blood. Unless Sansa paid for Mycah to be slaughtered, I have no idea how Mycah's death is her fault. Did we want Sansa to turn into Wonder Woman and fly her invisible jet to pick Mycah up and drop him in Essos? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mladen Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 How about Mycah? His death is absolutely linked to Lady's in time and emotional impact.Are we now moved to blame Sansa for Mycah's death? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1234567 Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 Cersei did not want to he DW killed because she was concerned about the safety of children in KL. She did it because she is a bloodthirsty psycho.ETA: And Cersei is not completely correct, Lady was no more dangerous than any dog. In fact Balerion the cat is more dangerous that Lady.Cersei said in Winterfell that she didn't want the dire wolves going to KL. so she did have it out for them before the Trident incident.Grown men moved away from Lady. She was a dangerous animal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ash Tree Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 How about Mycah? His death is absolutely linked to Lady's in time and emotional impact.Are you kidding me? Mycah was dead before the trial even began for all we know.Cersei said in Winterfell that she didn't want the dire wolves going to KL. so she did have it out for them before the Trident incident.Grown men moved away from Lady. She was a dangerous animal.I she wasn't bloodthirsty she would have asked that Ned send the wolves to WF, and Lady wasn't dangerous, the fact that some people moves away from her says more about them than it does about Lady. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ash Tree Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 Cersei wasn't there, so no idea what her word has to do with anything, other than her influence over Robert.Umm, it was Cersei who insisted on Lady's death and before that she insisted that Arya be punished. And Ned knew that Cersei is the one who insisted that Arya be brought to this "trial". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTowerOfJoy Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 Ned knew the real story all along, Sansa told him. So, he would do the same. Beside, Sansa would say the truth as it happened, and the situation didn;t go well for Arya too... Remember, her wolf bit Joffrey. Robert would insist, because in his mind this wasn't about children, it was just a feud, but his son was hurt and someone had to pay, and if it wasn't little girl, then it was direwolf... It's simple as that.That wasn't Robert's reasoning for letting Cersei get her way though...The king was in no mood for more argument. "Enough, Ned, I will hear no more. A direwolf is a savage beast. Sooner or later it would have turned on your girl the same way the other did on my son. Get her a dog, she'll be happier for it." His reasoning was the the direwolves are dangerous, and apparently too wild to be allowed around children. If he'd have known the truth (that Nymeria was actually PROTECTING Arya from an attack by Joffrey with a sword), then that reasoning would be invalid. I suppose it's possible that Robert would have come up with some other reasoning to let Cersei get her way, but I'm not sure Ned would have gone along with it if Sansa had backed up Arya's version of events with Joffrey being the Aggressor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Ash Tree Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 His reasoning was the the direwolves are dangerous, and apparently too wild to be allowed around children. If he'd have known the truth (that Nymeria was actually PROTECTING Arya from an attack by Joffrey with a sword), then that reasoning would be invalid. I suppose it's possible that Robert would have come up with some other reasoning to let Cersei get her way, but I'm not sure Ned would have gone along with it if Sansa had backed up Arya's version of events with Joffrey being the Aggressor.Once again, there is no such thing as "protecting" when you attack the crown prince. Nymeria attacked Joff, key word here is "attacked" it doesn't matter why one bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BanzaiZ Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 Umm, it was Cersei who insisted on Lady's death and before that she insisted that Arya be punished. And Ned knew that Cersei is the one who insisted that Arya be brought to this "trial". :agree:Cersei's fingerprints are all over this situation, a fact that Ned is highly aware of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowCat Rivers Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 No, I don't think we are supposed to blame Sansa, nor Ned, for Lady. Nothing would change Lady's fate IMO. The problem with both of them is, what did they learn from this incident? Lady's death was a bloody expensive lesson that went wasted, as Sansa and Ned weren't paying attention...Sansa "should" have learned that Joffrey is not only cruel, but a liar and a coward as well and does not deserve her love. That Cersei is bloodthirsty. That being innocent counts for nothing. That she should never, never trust them.For Sansa, I put "should" in quotation marks, because she was only 11 and so she's excused. But Ned? Like father, like daughter, Ned, even after this farce of a trial, sticks to the mental immage he had for Robert, denying to see the sorry little person that he is, that you can never, never, rely on him for anything... If Ned had the sense to see Robert for what he was, his whole course of action after this would be different.Eventually, they both payed a huge price for not taking that lesson. A cruel and uneven price, but this is Martin's world... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bippy Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 Are you kidding me? Mycah was dead before the trial even began for all we know.Oh come ON, people. The wolf was killed, the boy was killed. Sansa has a failure of nerve (to put it no higher), Cersei demands a death, Ned says he'll kill the wolf, Ned kills the wolf, he meets Sandor Clegane carrying the squelchy body of the boy. One is absolutely meant to resonate with the other. My interpretation is that telling the truth about Mycah was not worth embarrassing Sansa's fiance (several days before this incident) and the end result is Mycah's chopped nearly in half. Having said that, I do not blame Sansa directly for this, I blame Ned.But really, this allegation that she's paid the price for her lie by losing Lady--Mycah's paid the price for being around her and Joff by losing his LIFE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTowerOfJoy Posted September 5, 2013 Share Posted September 5, 2013 Context is important, you know...This. Ned was stupid to expect that Sansa's voice would have any weight against Cersei's.Cersei wasn't there, so no idea what her word has to do with anything, other than her influence over Robert.And her word sentenced Lady to death, so I say her word is rather powerful.The "weight" that seemed to being referred to here was about Sansa's word on what occurred versus Cersei's, and my point was that Cersei's word on what occurred should get zero weight, because she wasn't there, whereas Sansa was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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