Were we supposed to blame Sansa for Lady?

[BanzaiZ]

This is crazy talk, no one suggested that she should support Joffrey, we're saying she should have supported her sister.

And you're somehow refusing to see that she DID support her sister. By claiming neutrality, she kept her sister out of hot water with the Royal Family. The fact is, Arya DID strike the Crown Prince. Under Westeros law, that is highly punishable. How do you think Sansa's testimony to anything but neutrality would have ended well for the Starks? Because Cersei was just being soooooooo rational, right?

[Littlefingers In The Air]

That fact had nothing to do with Sansa's testimony, jaime was looking for Arya before the trial even started. But why not, let's blame Sansa for that too...

I haven't blamed Sansa for anything.

[Le Dragone]

I haven't blamed Sansa for anything.

I didn't mean that you did, but I thought that that's what Bluesnow was alluding to after reading your post.

What get people mad is Sansa's priorities and lack of judgment, and people feel she should be punished for that.

Not only a complete disregard for the fact that her sister was almost killed,

Sansa doesn't even know anything about Cersei sending Jaime to kill Arya.

[The Ash Tree]

Sansa doesn't even know anything about Cersei sending Jaime to kill Arya.

Like I said in the other thread, I actually do blame Sansa for that. She had four days to come out with the truth but she didn't. If she did

then Robert would have stopped the search.

[Mladen]

Like I said in the other thread, I actually do blame Sansa for that. She had four days to come out with the truth but she didn't. If she did

then Robert would have stopped the search.

They weren't hunting Arya, they were looking for her. No one wanted to harm the girl but Cersei...

[Maxxwell]

is the fact that Jaime was looking for Arya at Cerseis behest lost on you?

No, but my point was that Sansa's lie did not put her sister's life in danger, and if the Jaime thing is what the original poster Bluesnow was talking about, then I don't understand how Sansa could have known about it.

[The Ash Tree]

They weren't hunting Arya, they were looking for her. No one wanted to harm the girl but Cersei...

Jaime was, and he was of the KG. Robert could have ordered him not to do anything to the girl if he found her.

[BanzaiZ]

Like I said in the other thread, I actually do blame Sansa for that. She had four days to come out with the truth but she didn't. If she did

then Robert would have stopped the search.

So you're going to equally blame Arya for running away and hiding in the first place, right? And putting herself in that position? Or did Sansa hold Arya at knifepoint and force her to run?

Robert would have stopped the search? We don't know that, you're speculating. What we do know is that Cersei wanted Arya dead. Deader than a door nail dead, or at least maimed. She contracted her brother to act as a hitman and dispatch her and then lie about the why if he found Arya.

Furthermore, you are so utterly failing the Sally and Anne test, I'm astounded. You're assuming that a little girl is going to be prone to the prophetic visions of possible future outcomes, will have the wisdom to know everyone's mind in a situation Ned is more than likely trying to shelter her from, and has magical powers of taming the angry Cersei on top of everything.

How about this tack? Arya had four full days to go to Ned and stop the search herself and she didn't. Arya isn't blamed for that because she's a CHILD and she's scared. Yet Sansa is somehow the fulcrum of everything wrong in this scenario?

[BanzaiZ]

Jaime was, and he was of the KG. Robert could have ordered him not to do anything to the girl if he found her.

:bs: Because Lannisters are known for being honor bound and don't have a history of using subterfuge or lying to get their way at all.

[Minsc]

Like I said in the other thread, I actually do blame Sansa for that. She had four days to come out with the truth but she didn't. If she did

then Robert would have stopped the search.

She had already told Ned, maybe he should have gone foreword and told Robert that seeing how he is both an adult, both girl's father, and the Hand of the King.

[Le Dragone]

Jaime was, and he was of the KG. Robert could have ordered him not to do anything to the girl if he found her.

Robert had sent men to find Arya and bring her back, he did not want her killed and he didn't know that Cersei had sent Jaime to harm the girl. So even if Sansa had gone to Robert during the search, not much would have changed, Arya would still be lost and everyone would still be looking for her, including Jaime.

[The Ash Tree]

So you're going to equally blame Arya for running away and hiding in the first place, right? And putting herself in that position? Or did Sansa hold Arya at knifepoint and force her to run?

Robert would have stopped the search? We don't know that, you're speculating. What we do know is that Cersei wanted Arya dead. Deader than a door nail dead, or at least maimed. She contracted her brother to act as a hitman and dispatch her and then lie about the why if he found Arya.

Furthermore, you are so utterly failing the Sally and Anne test, I'm astounded. You're assuming that a little girl is going to be prone to the prophetic visions of possible future outcomes, will have the wisdom to know everyone's mind in a situation Ned is more than likely trying to shelter her from, and has magical powers of taming the angry Cersei on top of everything.

How about this tack? Arya had four full days to go to Ned and stop the search herself and she didn't. Arya isn't blamed for that because she's a CHILD and she's scared. Yet Sansa is somehow the fulcrum of everything wrong in this scenario?

Sansa was the big sister, it was her job to do everything she could to protect Arya, not the other way around.

[1234567]

Like I said in the other thread, I actually do blame Sansa for that. She had four days to come out with the truth but she didn't. If she did then Robert would have stopped the search.

Actually she told Ned the day it happened. Ned, the adult and parent had time to talk to Robert about it and have Sansa tell him her story personally. Ned as the adult didn't relay this info to Robert.

Robert wouldn't have stopped the search because they still had to find Arya and Mycah. The Lannisters would still have been searching with vengeance in mind. Robert didn't order Arya's hand cut off, Cersei did.

Also Robert didn't seem bothered at all about Mycah's death.

[Dicer]

But Robert is the king and Ned is the Hand of the king. Isn't the fact that it went public their fault? Has Cersei become King?

I guess I have no choice but to bring up this quote again from the books:

“Thank the gods,” Ned said.

His men had been searching for Arya for four days now, but the queen’s men had been out hunting as well. “Where is she? Tell Jory to bring her here at once.”

“I am sorry, my lord,” Poole told him. “The guards on the gate were Lannister men, and they informed the queen when Jory brought her in. She’s being taken directly before the king…”

“Damn that woman!” Ned said, striding to the door. “Find Sansa and bring her to the audience chamber. Her voice may be needed.”

Robert was slumped in Darry’s high seat at the far end of the room, his face closed and sullen.

Prince Joffrey was pale as he began his very different version of events. When his son was done talking, the king rose heavily from his seat, looking like a man who wanted to be anywhere but here. “What in all the seven hells am I supposed to make of this? He says one thing, she says another.”

It's clear to me that Ned had no choice in the matter. He had to go be with Arya. What was he supposed to do. Sit in his room and wait it out? He even chastises Robert for bringing Arya there instead of taking Arya to Ned. Cersei is the person who takes Arya before the king. Can Robert just get up and walk off? I don't know how such things work in that situation. If Cersei is demanding justice for the crown prince's injuries can the king refuse to listen and walk away in front of everyone (Lannister, Baratheon and Stark men) or would he be expected to make a judgement without favoritism?

So, no Cersei is not king, but just because Robert is king and Ned is Hand does not mean they could have just walked away from that situation.

If we accept that Ned should obey his king because of honor, despite the fact that he could have very easily saved this innocent, then Lady's death is on his honor. Maybe "honor," like anything taken to an extreme, is not a good thing, and maybe not a justifiable excuse? Does the fact that it was "honor" that kept him from doing this make it any less the case that he did, in fact, side with Robert-Cersei-Joffrey over his family, and worse, the truth?

Ned killed Lady because he was following his King's orders. A soldier in any army of the 5 kings would follow orders either for honor or because that was the rule. The men of the NW should follow orders. Janos Slynt lost his head for not following orders. Ned tends to be more into these things because of his concepts of honor and taking responsibility for one's mistakes.

How could Ned have very easily saved Lady? I would like to hear suggestions. Send her with his men under cover of darkness back to Winterfell? And what if they were found out by the Lannisters? The King's hand disobeying the kings's orders for his direwolf. Would it not be risky if Ned was caught disobeying an order? Is it worth that risk? Ned did not side with Cersei-Robert-Joffrey. He was following orders. At one point when the burden of following orders became too much for him he resigns (Assassinating Dany). He has not reached that stage yet at this point. But I don't see how Ned was expected to defy orders as if it was nothing and something that can be easily done.

How? How could anything short of Sansa taking Joffrey's side have come close to sparing Lady's life (as a potential "reward" of sorts, but even this is thin)? The truth shows Joffrey to be a liar (which they all know anyway), which means that Cersei is then more determined for blood.

One, as I said, Sansa's testimony was more important to Arya. She was the defendant here. Sansa remaining neutral worked to Joffrey's advantage because he had injuries and the claim that the attack on him was unprovoked.

And two, Sansa's testimony shows intent. Cersei's claim was the wild animal bit Joffrey without provocation. Arya claims otherwise. Arya, Nymeria and Mycah were being accused of deliberately attacking Joffrey. Sansa corroborating Arya's story would have shown that there was a reason behind Nymeria's attack. That attack saved Arya's life. Nymeria was not just some wild animal randomly attacking. She had reason to attack. Sansa proclaiming how the wolf saved her sister's life would have made both Cersei and Robert look like a fool for killing a wolf when a wolf was responsible for saving a child's life.

And again, Robert knew Joffrey was lying at this point. Ned was his friend. He wanted to let the Starks go unpunished and he did not care one way or another about the direwolves. Sansa telling the truth would have given him the chance to admonish both parties, declare that Joffrey had got his just punishment from the wolf and walk away. But Sansa's lie and Arya's reaction to it escalated matters and made a mess of things leading Cersei to take advantage.

No, the wolves were not brought up because of appeals to their attacking "unprovoked." The issue of provocation is not addressed wrt the direwolves. It's simple a matter of there being a wolf.

After Arya attacks Sansa Cersei speaks up with:

“The girl is as wild as that filthy animal of hers,” Cersei Lannister said. “Robert, I want her punished.”

“And what of the direwolf?” she called after him. “What of the beast that savaged your son?”

The king was in no mood for more argument. “Enough, Ned, I will hear no more. A direwolf is a savage beast. Sooner or later it would have turned on your girl the same way the other did on my son.

As is clear from these quotes, it's not just about being wolves, but because Nymeria attacked Joffrey.

Nymeria did not turn on Joffrey out of the blue. There was a reason for that. Cersei wanted a wolf's death because it bit Joffrey. Which was why intent mattered. Which was why Sansa supporting Arya in her story would have made a difference. Robert would have looked the fool ordering the death of a wolf if that wolf had saved Arya. Without Sansa's support, Arya looked like a wild child supporting an unprovoked attack from Nymeria on Joffrey. But Sansa with her 'hair brushed until it shone' could have acted as a reliable witness that could provide credibility to Arya's story.

No, actually Robert made the right decision after that outburst. He ruled that the parents should deal with their respective kids privately. Strange, though, that Sansa's memory lie is the "big bad" here, yet Arya's reaction-- allowing Cersei to conclude, “The girl is as wild as that filthy animal of hers,” is waved away. For the record, I hold neither Arya nor Sansa to blame for that.

I am not waving that away. She bears responsibility too. But you are waving away the fact that it was Sansa's lie that led Arya to attack her. If Sansa had told the truth, as she should have rightly done, Arya would not have attacked and given Cersei more ammunition to further her case. And yes, he ruled that parents deal with it, but Joffrey was still injured and Cerse was still demanding retribution for that. Which was why Sansa's testimony would have helped tilt the balance towards the Starks and given them a slight advantage. Her being neutral did not help them any. It gave more power to Cersei to press her claim.

I can agree with selfish reasons, in so far as taking neither side was a form of self-protection. However, she did not "lie for Joffrey." Ned may have expected her to tell the truth, but more importantly, he expected Robert to be the King he was supposed to be.

I don't think it was self protection. She was not smart enough to think that way. She did not think that Joffrey or Cersei could be cruel to her in any way. I mean, even after Cersei demands Lady's death, she blames Arya and then later runs to Cersei to confess her father's plan to take them away from there. She still thinks Joff is an amazing person after seeing him carve up Mycah's face and trying to kill her sister. I think it was selfish because she wanted to be Queen. That was all that mattered to her at that point. And yes I am sure Ned also expected Robert to act like a king. Unfortunately both Sansa and Robert let him down.

In the end, I think Sansa's lying had consequences. In GRRM's world actions tend to have consequences. The smallest mistakes can get people stabbed or their heads chopped off. In Sansa's case, she screwed over her old family for her new one and lost her wolf.

[1234567]

Sansa was the big sister, it was her job to do everything she could to protect Arya, not the other way around.

Sansa was 11 and terrified. She tried to get Joff to stop and was going to intervene before Arya ateacked Joff. if Arya had listened to ger big sister, then maybe Sansa could have talked Joff down. She was too passive in the fight, and Arya rode off before Sansa could do anything. Sansa ran to get help. She told her father what happened. It was then up to Ned, the parent to protect both his daughters and he failed miserably in this instance.

[Blueberry Stark]

If Joffery hadn't been a spineless coward who attacks a peasant boy for playing with Arya none of this would have happened. If Arya hand't hit Joffery, then been attacked by Joffery, again, none of this would have happened. If Nymeria hadn't bit Joffery, none of this would have happened. Shall I go on with the long lists of if/then statements? IF we are going to blame children for this idiotic situation, I'm a little confused as to why Sansa ends up being responsible for any of it. She didn't physically fight, nor did her wolf, but because she didn't want to give public testimony against her intended fiance to a bunch of uncaring and incompetent adults she is somehow to blame. Makes perfect sense to me.

[BanzaiZ]

Sansa was the big sister, it was her job to do everything she could to protect Arya, not the other way around.

Yeah, okay. I'm calling troll now.

[The Ash Tree]

Yeah, okay. I'm calling troll now.

Thanks for your insight. Is this what you usually do when losing an argument?

If Joffery hadn't been a spineless coward who attacks a peasant boy for playing with Arya none of this would have happened. If Arya hand't hit Joffery, then been attacked by Joffery, again, none of this would have happened. If Nymeria hadn't bit Joffery, none of this would have happened.

And if Catelyn hadn't given birth to Arya and LL, non of this would have happened. It still doesn't change the fact that LL had a part in Robert's decision to have Lady killed. She is not solely to blame for it, but she takes some share of the blame for not mentioning the fact that Nymeria was defending Arya.

[Okaythen]

Sansa was the big sister, it was her job to do everything she could to protect Arya, not the other way around.

I think you are confusing "Big Sister" with "parent". Why do you call her LL by the way? I know what it means I am just curious as why you only abbreviate her?

[BanzaiZ]

Thanks for your insight. Is this what you usually do when losing an argument?

No, that's what I normally assume when someone says something so outrageously unfair, biased, and false that I can't believe anyone would hold another person to such an absolute and unattainable standard while not holding the other characters to the same.

Completely putting the blame of all of Arya's actions on Sansa is not only unfair, it's not reasonable, it makes Arya less of her own person and cheapens her character, and there's no way any person should have to fully bear the responsibility of another person's actions like you're implying. If my little brother attacked the President's daughters, even if I told him not to, and then ran away with Secret Service on his tail, even after I told him not to, and then went into hiding and LIED TO THE COURT AFTER, even after I went to the best responsible part I could think of to try and help him, his potential fallout, for his actions, are MY FAULT? Really?