The Three-Headed Trios, Er, Dragon

[Fire Eater]

I don't think these puzzles will turn out so literal, personally. Remember someone probably made these prophesies from a vision a long time ago - why would they mention the preservation methods of surrounding foodstuffs? And what would that add storywise, this perhaps the most important moment in the planets history, grrm will want to be bringing in his central themes as much as is possible, at this moment.

That's how it tends to go with prophecies. The smoke and salt doesn't need to contribute anything more to the story than be providing the hints. One could just as easily argue why GRRM would show all the foodstuffs, including the smoked and salted meats, in Jon's POV if none of it is a clue or in some way contributes to the story.

[Varys BrightBlackflayrme]

If we accept that "dragon" can have different layers of meaning — both a symbol of a human Targaryen and an actual dragon — then a dragon with three heads, one of which is a dragon, doesn't have to be redundant. One is symbolic (Jon is a Targaryen) and one is more literal (Jon will warg an actual dragon).

I vaguely remember that from my eastern religion class. :P It does seem to fit the three-aspect mold, though, the idea of creation, destruction and balance.

Sorry to dumb down this conversation, but I have a stupid question to ask, which I couldnt see it anywhere on this forum today. What if the 3 heads also refer to Ghost(ICE) Jon(I&F) Insert Dragon Viserion or the Green one Rhaegal?(FIRE)? Or if Jon dies and is reborn in Ghost, becomes Jon again, dies and is reborn in insert Dragon, become Jon again?.

Again, sorry if this is stupid or obvious or stupid or... I didnt get much sleep last night.

[yolkboy]

Sorry to dumb down this conversation, but I have a stupid question to ask, which I couldnt see it anywhere on this forum today. What if the 3 heads also refer to Ghost(ICE) Jon(I&F) Insert Dragon Viserion or the Green one Rhaegal?(FIRE)? Or if Jon dies and is reborn in Ghost, becomes Jon again, dies and is reborn in insert Dragon, become Jon again?.

Again, sorry if this is stupid or obvious or stupid or... I didnt get much sleep last night.

Fwiw the idea of Jon being ressurected twice has crossed my mind. But personally I think, if were talking about seperate Jon incarnations, this would be using the same trick twice, so in that sense it doesn't appeal. But I like your idea, although Jon wouldnt be reborn in Ghost, he'd be reborn when he returns to his body. I'm definately in the 3 incarnations camp, and this thread has convinced me further. I think this might be the most difficult prophesy puzzle to crack, possibly.

[DaveSnow House Stark]

Well, I have learned that I do not have a clue as to the three heads! As I read this thread I found myself agreeing with more than one point of view. I can see the Trios part in the book definitely pointing to the three headed dragon idea for TPTWP, but what of AAR? Are we assuming they are one in the same?

Some things have to be forshadowing, TWOW prologue, a wolf being a life for a King...it's all but saying that someone will be in a wolf for a while and that person will be a King.

Jon looking into the ice cells and seeing himself, fire consumes but Ice preserves, Blue rose in the wall, Jon is stabbed....

I guess if you view the series from another point of view Aegon(Tyrion)(Bran), Dany, and Jon could also be strongly argued to be the three heads of the Dragon...especially since there are three dragons alive.

[mrlukeduke]

The first head of Trios is akin to fire — it devours, consumes. The third is akin to ice — it preserves and allows people to emerge reborn. The mysterious second head — not the first or the third but the one in the middle — is the wild card. It's unclear what its purpose is, and I think this fits pretty nicely into the idea that even if Jon is this three-aspect being, the point of it is still up in the air and may even hinge on Jon's own choices.

It also occurred to me that the literal destruction and reconstruction of the human body, put through the three heads, is something like warging. The consciousness of the warg "splits" into the animal or animals and then eventually returns to the human. Or, "man to wolf and man again."

Superb analysis and thread as usual, Martini. One thing I want to add here though:

Actually what I think's happening is that Jon is being preserved by Ice/Ghost/Cold. (Kept in "stasis"). Fire is what is/will revive him again. So, if we look at Catelyn for example, she is reborn (or perhaps necromanced in some way?) through fire magics. Same for Beric. Even Danaerys. Cat was changed, and became vengeful. But she wasn't involved in Ice magics that we know of. And Beric too. They're both vengeful, violent, righteous.

Same goes to a much lesser degree for Danaerys, although I don't think she really "died". It was symbolic. And so we don't see her change that way. Some have even suggested the pyre was a trick.

So I think fire consumes the personality that was in there before yes, but it also does the rebirthing: it reanimates. Look at Melisandre as an example. She was clearly a completely different person ("Melanie, lot 7", etc). But I suppose the counter-argument would be Coldhands. Although he seems barely alive at all, and not at all like UnCat, UnBeric – merely preserved as some kind of zombie shell of a being. Necromanced perhaps?

I don't know, what do you think? If you think about the White Walkers, they don't create life, they can only use dead bodies like puppets. Whereas it seems that Fire Rebirths really do impart free will upon the reborn.

[The Others Take Ya]

The first head of Trios is akin to fire — it devours, consumes. The third is akin to ice — it preserves and allows people to emerge reborn. The mysterious second head — not the first or the third but the one in the middle — is the wild card. It's unclear what its purpose is, and I think this fits pretty nicely into the idea that even if Jon is this three-aspect being, the point of it is still up in the air and may even hinge on Jon's own choices.

The way I see it, three headed Trios is yet another retelling of the 3 actors in the story of how dragons came to be in Dothraki story, and also, we have allusions of the same characters in other religions. The two moonmaidens in the worship of the moonsingers in Braavos. And remember, they "esteem" the father of waters there too. I think there are also strong parallels between Aegon and his 2 sisters, in that they may have been considered "gods on earth".

I think the one religion that gets it sort of wrong is R'hllor, since they believe in two sides constantly at war with each other, but I suggest that the third is actually the Azor Ahai savior that Mel is expecting to be Stannis. He's supposed to "stop the war" and I guess Mel may be assuming he'll stop it by helping her side "win". But perhaps the sides are actually more, uh, passionate with each other rather then argumentative. ;)

I think the point of it is, the third head has forgotten what he's supposed to do but the clues are there in comparing the actors within the creation stories.

If we compare these creation stories the best parallels I can see are:

"middle Trios head" = "the Dothraki sun" = "The Braavosi Father of Waters" = "Aegon the conqueror, as known as The Dragon" = "R'hllor's Azor Ahai"

"devouring Trios head" = "the cracked Dothraki dragon moon" = "Braavosi moonmaid (of life/fire?)" = "Rhaenys singer/many men around her sisterwife" = "R'hllor"

"rebirthing Trios head" = "the still existing/living moon" = "Braavosi moonmaid (of death/ice?)" = "Visenya warrior/occult linked (fm?) sisterwife" = "The great other"

So comparing mysterious middle head guy to all the roles we see between the different religious retellings, the sun provides fire that creates dragons, the father of waters regenerates his house when he takes a wife (does he pick a moonmaid? or just use both to recreate himself?), Aegon conquers and rules over everything, and Azor Ahai will "save" people from darkness.

So I would guess the middle head rules the other two and provides the balance needed for the transition from life to death. This is probably another good reason why three seems to be so symbolic of death in this series, as it could be alluding to the three actors in the cycles.

And by extension to the Targaryens, Rheagar of fire took Lyanna of ice to regenerate Jon "The Father" of waters.

Plus to me it seemes being "kissed by fire" equates to having previously died by fire and getting to reincarnate, hence why they think it's lucky, so the process is again, messed. Who burns their bodies when they die? Targs. Tullys. R'hllorites. Wildlings. Lots of redheads there. (Even Starks! ;) )

People who don't come back: Starks with iron swords on their graves. What is the realm ruled by? A guy sitting on the very thing that keeps the dead in their graves, a bunch of iron swords. Hence the guy sitting on the throne is symbolic not just of ruling fire, but of ruling on the very thing that keeps death in line. Built and sat on by Aegon the Conqueror.

Lyanna had no sword on her statue. So she probably came back. Arya is the new Visenya.

Rheagar's Targ tradition was to burn the body. So a new blood of the dragon probably came back. Daenerys is the new Rhaenys.

Jon was born of the two, remaking his house by the marraige of fire and ice. Jon is the new Aegon the dragon.

Azor Ahai is supposed to be reborn amongst smoke and salt to wake dragons from stone.

the dragon has three heads.

So prophesy 1 talks about Azor Ahai waking multiple dragons but prophesy 2 says one dragon in particular will have three heads. Assuming Jon is Aegon the Dragon reincarnated, I don't think it's a stretch to say head #2 is his direwolf and head #3 is his dragon.

So I think Jon, in a godlike sense as the middle head, was knocked off of his rightful place as the ruler and enabler of the transformational process between life and death. He's being reborn through his moon maid sisters in order to pay the blood price to bring himself back so he can fight to go back to his rightful place he was denied from.

[Fire Eater]

I would like to add that Drogon and Ghost do share some similarities:

• Red eyes
  
• Ghost left his mother and sibilings as a pup/Drogon left his mother and sibilings in Meereen
  
• In ASoS, Ghost leaves and returns to his master Jon/ In ADwD, Drogon leaves and returns to his master, Dany
  
• Ghost is described as a white shadow/Drogon is described as winged shadow
  

[Mithras]

I would like to add that Drogon and Ghost do share some similarities:

• Red eyes

Ghost left his mother and sibilings as a pup/Drogon left his mother and sibilings in Meereen

In ASoS, Ghost leaves and returns to his master Jon/ In ADwD, Drogon leaves and returns to his master, Dany

Ghost is described as a white shadow/Drogon is described as winged shadow

If I remember correctly, Ghost matured faster than his siblings as Drogon is the largest dragon. And perhaps Ghost leading Jon to obsidians may be parallel to Drogon leading Dany to Khal Pono?

[Fire Eater]

This may be nothing, but here goes: pieces of the juggler are in the mouths of Trios. This brings to mind the image of Satan in Dante's Inferno, who is described as having three heads with each of the mouths devouring a traitor. Two of the traitors are Brutus and Cassius, and I think Ghost may make a meal of Bowen and another conspirator after the Ides of Marsh, possibly with Jon still inside him, because hey he shouldn't be the only Stark sibling with a wolf missing out on dining on human flesh. The third devours Judas, and that makes me wonder who Drogon will eat next.

Satan is encased in ice, and I think Jon's body will be placed in the ice cells of the Wall.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

This may be nothing, but here goes: pieces of the juggler are in the mouths of Trios. This brings to mind the image of Satan in Dante's Inferno, who is described as having three heads with each of the mouths devouring a traitor. Two of the traitors are Brutus and Cassius, and I think Ghost may make a meal of Bowen and another conspirator after the Ides of Marsh, possibly with Jon still inside him, because hey he shouldn't be the only Stark sibling with a wolf missing out on dining on human flesh. The third devours Judas, and that makes me wonder who Drogon will eat next.

Satan is encased in ice, and I think Jon's body will be placed in the ice cells of the Wall.

You know I'm extremely leery of using any outside literature as if it has some sort of intentional connotation in this story. Until and unless GRRM admits to deliberately drawing parallels from this kind of stuff I just don't think it has any actual value in terms of foreshadowing, be it Dante, Tolkien, Grimm, whatever.

Having said that, the parallels between Drogon and Ghost are interesting. Red eyes, fast growth. And one's black and one's white. Still has that dualism going on.

[yolkboy]

You know I'm extremely leery of using any outside literature as if it has some sort of intentional connotation in this story. Until and unless GRRM admits to deliberately drawing parallels from this kind of stuff I just don't think it has any actual value in terms of foreshadowing, be it Dante, Tolkien, Grimm, whatever.

Yes because Grrm uses (non text) parallels (and similarly popular tropes), and then twists, inverts and subverts the absolute heck out of them. That's why such parallels and trope-reading cannot and should not be used as foreshadowing. They are a completely unreliable way to predict the future - for that we have Grrm's own words (5000 pages worth).

[Fire Eater]

You know I'm extremely leery of using any outside literature as if it has some sort of intentional connotation in this story. Until and unless GRRM admits to deliberately drawing parallels from this kind of stuff I just don't think it has any actual value in terms of foreshadowing, be it Dante, Tolkien, Grimm, whatever.

Why do you think I put "This may be nothing" in the beginning? That was a clear implication that I was expressing an idea that could be wrong, not a matter of fact.

If I remember correctly, Ghost matured faster than his siblings as Drogon is the largest dragon. And perhaps Ghost leading Jon to obsidians may be parallel to Drogon leading Dany to Khal Pono?

Nice, Lamprey. Drogon returns when Dany decides to abandon her floppy ears and rejects Meereenese culture, and Ghost returns in ASoS around the time Jon reaches the decision to reject Stannis's offer.

[Mithras]

The devouring head maybe Drogon.

There is a great deal of foreshadowing in the reopening day of Daznak's Pit. Tze had a post about it but I think it requires its own thread. GRRM could have told us a million different kinds of things there but he was very delicate about his foreshadowings. The one I will explore is the fight between Barsena and the boar.

Barsena is a tall woman with black hair. She is very bold that no woman agreed to fight her so she went for the boar fight. There are more hints of who she represents but it is enough say in short that she is Robert Baratheon with teats.

And the boar is Cersei. More on boars representing Cersei and whores here :D

The last case was a plump tavern singer, accused of making a song that ridiculed the late King Robert. Joff commanded them to fetch his woodharp and ordered him to perform the song for the court. The singer wept and swore he would never sing that song again, but the king insisted. It was sort of a funny song, all about Robert fighting with a pig. The pig was the boar who’d killed him, Sansa knew, but in some verses it almost sounded as if he were singing about the queen.

Lord Commander Obvious states the obvious in both cases.

The white-haired knight gave a weary nod. “His Grace was reeling in his saddle by the time we flushed the boar from his lair, yet he commanded us all to stand aside.”

“She needs a spear,” Ser Barristan said, as Barsena vaulted over the beast’s second charge. “That is no way to fight a boar.” He sounded like someone’s fussy old grandsire, just as Daario was always saying.

Barsena fought the boar just like Robert hunts boars. She taunted the beast to attack her. The boar charged but she was too late to pull herself aside and kill the beast. So the boar rooted out her entrails just like Robert's entrails were taken out.

By the way Renly said He slew the boar. His entrails were sliding from his belly, yet somehow he slew the boar. Can Robert cause the downfall of Cersei somehow even after he is dead? Or will it be another Baratheon (Stannis perhaps)?

Anyway, while the boar (Cersei) was exploiting the corpse of Robert (his kingdom of course) Drogon came and roasted the boar. But then he both ate the boar and the corpse of Barsena. This may foreshadow that Jon will end the conflict and devour the corpses of the kingdoms with its devouring head and give birth to a new unified kingdom with his other head.

[ishmael]

This is a very interesting thread. Many have offered very good support for both sides of the debate.

I've always been under the impression that the prophesy implied three riders, but after reading this thread, I am not convinced that is correct. The prophesy says "the dragon has 3 heads". It does not say that there are three riders for 3 dragons. It is worded so that it might be interpreted as one body with three heads/agendas/personalities/aspects. The quoted portion of the prophesy prior to the "dragon has 3 heads" implies that there should be 3 riders ("there must be one more"), but maybe it only implies that R should/will have another child. Since Aegon and Rhaenys died, there must be one more, who is the PTWP. R, in life, was convinced that his child/Aegon would be the PTWP, but his prophetic self knows that his first two children died so there must be one more child to fulfill the prophesy. He cannot come right out and tell her she has a niece/nephew, as that is not how information is generally given in dream/prophesy sequences. In the scene R says: "The dragon has three heads." That indicates that he is talking about a single dragon with three heads, not three separate entities that will require three riders to control them.

This thread with the Trios reference really muddies the water on this one. It has seemed so clear up to this point. I could see GRRM going either way with this prophesy (as he is very good at making us believe one thing then switching it up on us). This is a theory I'll have to think on for a while since it is so different from what I have believed up until now.

I would not feel GRRM was lying if he allowed a reader's bias to lead said reader to ask an inaccurate question, then he answered the question that was asked. There are many ways that the question in question could have been asked and answered, and none of them been lying or greatly misleading. If Jon does ride a dragon, would we as readers view him as being a Targ or would we view him as a Snow or a Stark? My guess is that many will see him as one of the those three or maybe all three at once. There are not too many characters that have the potential to be viewed as 3 different personae at once. Most are in agreement that if Jon lives, he will be a rider, but the question is: will he be one of the riders or will he be the rider?

[Stoned Dragon]

I think this is really interesting, but I think it's a stretch to immediately compare "devours the dying" to either Ghost or Drogon.

[sailor's Wife to Arya] "Three-headed Trios has that tower with three turrets. The first head devours the dying, and the reborn emerge from the third. I don't know what the middle head's supposed to do."

On its face, it seems as if the Trios is a deity associated with a certain process, and that process seems to be resurrection. You can see that in the wording -- the first head devours the dying and it's suggested that the "dying" then emerge "reborn" from the third head after the second. It's interesting that Trios has three heads and one body, and while it could connect to the Targs its just as likely that Trios has three heads because resurrection and/or rebirth is a three-step process.

Trios is a pretty damn good catch, so props there. I'd say it was definitely intended to parallel the prophecy. However, I am still on the fence as to whether the prophecy means three people or one person with three aspects. All I'm sure of is that it does, in fact, refer to human beings. The rest, I think, is very much an open question.

What I lean toward, though, is that the prophecy concerns three people, not just one. It makes far more sense to me when I consider the nature of the story so far, which is that it has been told by a wide variety of people from just as wide a variety of perspectives. I expect the story to continue to refrain from zeroing in on any one person. I realize that no one is this thread is claiming that Jon will suddenly become THE hero, so that isn't quite the position I'm arguing against. I'm just saying that I doubt this whole big prophetic build-up will come down to one single person. With Dany around, I find it difficult to believe that the only dragon the prophecy concerns is Jon Snow. I expect it's bigger than that...there are several roles to be filled.

I know that the sigil is one dragon with three heads, and Trios is one deity with three heads, both of which suggest a single being with three aspects, but I'd argue that everything fits just as well if you assume that the dragon is House Targaryen itself, and the three heads are three scions of that house. If a sigil isn't representative of a house, I don't know what is. In the same way, Trios himself is one deity that represents the church, but the three heads represent the three central tenets of the faith: death, ???, and rebirth.

If this is true, then the three heads pretty much have to be Jon, Dany, and Aegon, who is a Blackfyre, and thus still a dragon. Black or red, as they say. This is where GRRM's comment about all the heads not necessarily being Targaryens comes into play. Blackfyre is a distinct House in its own right, so members are not technically Targaryens, but they are still dragons descended from Targaryens, meaning that Aegon still fits the bill.

Basically, I know what makes a bit more sense to me, but I fail to see how one interpretation is inherently more credible than the other at this point.

It doesn't have to be Aegon-- it could very easily be Jon, Dany, and Bloodraven.

While TPtwP has to be born from a certain line, there's no reason to think that the other "heads" have to be of the same generation or lineage. Bloodraven was the Hand of the King, LC of the NW, and the Last Greenseer -- three "titles" or "heads," just like Dany and Jon. While Dany was reborn in her pyre and Jon will be reborn from Ghost, Bloodraven could very easily pick any vessel for his "rebirth." In fact, there's nothing stopping him from skinchanging into one of Dany's dragons -- something that would make it easier for Jon Snow to warg in afterward (since a beast that's been ridden once can be ridden again.

[FittleLinger]

It's a nice thread, thanks to everyone involved. I read about half of it, and will continue after I respond with this.

The interpretation of the SSM, where he says the third head needn't be a Targaryen, in my opinion, should be read like, "It could be a Lannister, or a Stark. As well as it could be an onion, a city, an animal, anything".

It's the garbage in - garbage out principle. The person who is asking is assuming the three heads are three people/ three dragonriders. And Martin simply doesn't deny this, because it would be very obvious if he does.

Also, the first, most obvious (and thus, probably incorrect) conclusion is that three heads means three people to ride dragons. Why would GRRM remove this thick layer of (probable) bullshit that does a great job of covering the mystery? It would be like him hinting someone not to ask himself about Jon's mother, but about his father.

I.E. The person is asking the wrong question, and that was Martin's goal all along.

[Lyse Stark]

THE YIN

Moon

Feminine

Ice

Winter

Creative

Wolf

Cold

THE YANG

Sun

Masculine

Fire

Summer

Destructive

Dragon

Heat

I think what the Three-headed Trios concept is getting at is that the two head at the ends are opposites, and the middle head, I think is the balance. And the mystery of the middle head might be a part of the concept; that if there is two clashing forces, there need to be balance, or things go out of whack. And creation and destruction is part of the cycle; you need to destroy something so something new can be made.

[lulu_pix]

The three heads are Jon, Dany, and Tyrion.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

The three heads are Jon, Dany, and Tyrion.

That's not what this thread is about, go back and read the OP.

[Lyse Stark]

The three heads are Jon, Dany, and Tyrion.

You are wrong about your idea. The OP's idea is that the three headed dragon refers to one person with three aspects.