R+L = J v 62

[Ghost's Shadow]

Sorry for the newbie Q, but I'm not sure how I'd even find this buried in the previous 62 threads...

Has it been discussed that Ned may have known what was happening with Rhaegar all along -- that he could actually have been complicit or had foreknowledge -- and that's what's driving his guilt?

Very little evidence, admittedly. But my thinking is based on...

1) Who else might the 'dutiful' and 'honorable' Rhaegar have turned to, but one like himself? Or perhaps Lyanna told Ned ahead of time?

2) As far as I can tell, Ned never agrees with anyone that suggests Lyanna was raped or kidnapped and still thinks well of Rhaegar. Why not/why?

3) If Eddard knew that Rhaegar had fathered a child on Lyanna to 'save the world' he'd have an incentive to promise to keep Lyanna's secret. Why would he agree to protect Jon, a bastard, when the circumstances of his conception had resulted in the death of half Ned's family and sparked a war? By the time Ned gets to the tower he'd have been aware of those consequences. Why agree to the promise unless there's a much larger, dutiful, reason to do so?

4) Finally -- this is the big one. Why would Ned's guilt be so overwhelming if all he'd done was hide Jon after the rebellion was over? It's a deception to be sure, but his level of existential guilt lines up more with letting your father and brother ride to their deaths and for the realm to be sundered on the basis of something you know is not true -- namely that Rhaegar neither abducted nor raped Lyanna. IMO keeping quiet after the fact would seem to be much smaller than his anguish is portrayed in the books.

Again, apologies if this has been covered already and I'm rehashing things. And if so, if someone would please point me to the discussion I'd be grateful!

Hi there, welcome to the forum! Ask away, any question that you have! :D

About Ned knowing of Rhaegar and Lyanna, you mean that at the time of elopement? Some of us, if not about all, think that it's Benjen that knew all along what was happening, as he might have been with her at the tourney of Harrenhal when she dressed up for her Knight of the Laughing Tree stint (Rhaegar must have found her/them per his father's orders and didn't name the identity of the Knight to Aerys out of admiration for her - or because she was some girl who wanted to teach those boys a lesson), and that's why he joined the Watch: out of guilt because his father, oldest brother and only sister died, not to mention the whole war that came after that.

Ned thinks back on Lyanna's wolf blood (impulsiveness) as her having chosen to run away, but I don't think he meant that as having known what she was up to all along (as said, that's what we project more onto Benjen, whom she might have been closer to because Ned was fostered somewhere else.)

1) I'm not too sure what you mean by this.

2) Maybe Ned's attitude is more of a 'if I shut up it'll go away by itself, some day', lol. I think he might have gotten the full picture at the ToJ in those last moments he had with Lyanna. Some think there's evidence hiding in Lyanna's tomb of whose Jon is, and if he was legit, e.g. a wedding cloak. If Ned was presented with something like that, next to a baby that was born out of love and not rape, that would present the case that Rhaegar at least did the 'right' thing by not just bedding her but marrying her as well, even though there was another wife. (Which, as you seem to have noted, gives him the +1 over Robert, he who fathered bastards around the realm. Rhaegar must not have taken her just to have her, but to love her and he showed he was serious about it.)

3) I'm not too sure that Ned knows about the prophecy. I don't think he's given us any indication of that? As for the 'why would he protect', it's because his sister asked one last thing from him. The fear in her eyes until he promised it showed that she wasn't entirely sure that he would do it. It's paralleled with him lying right before he gets beheaded to try to save Sansa: family (> duty) > honour. Oh, and over here we're not really convinced he's a bastard, and of course Ned wouldn't blame a baby for the somewhat foolishness of his sister. See him trying to send Cersei and the children away before he'd announce they're bastards/his horror at having seen Rhaegar's murdered children and the resulting fight he had with Robert over that.

4) Robert Baratheon, his best friend who was a brother to him, and after the Rebellion his king, wanted to kill all dragonspawn. If you notice, even in AGoT when Robert comes to visit he already manages to say that he still wants to kill Rhaegar every day (Jon Arryn was the only one who kept him from sending people to kill Viserys and Daenerys). That sets the message once more that if it would ever come out that Jon was Lyanna's and not his bastard, that Jon would be dead, and not only that but there's no telling what Robert would do in his rage. (Again, see Ned wanting Cersei and the children to leave because Robert would be after their heads.) Furthermore, it would show that Ned had been committing treason since the events at the ToJ and that might not have only cost him his own head, but his family's as well, innocent or not. Also, him embracing Jon as his own means that Cat thinks of him as a cheater (with results to show for it), and he's had to live with that lie for 14 years. He knows she pretty much despises Jon and that she's had to 'endure' his presence for 14 years. There's the added thing that Ned even seems to feel guilty for raising Jon as a bastard, so perhaps he isn't one. Even he must see that Jon suffers from that stigma. Keeping that lie alive hurts himself and the people around him, but he's kind of doing it for his sister, to save her son from murder like the other Targaryen children, and his family as well.

The least Ned would want is for people to find out Lyanna and Rhaegar were in love, because that would make people think again of what happened before, and someone might find out or see something suspicious about him bringing home a bastard from basically nowhere.

[WDCRob]

Somehow off the current topic but I have red many posts about - Rhaegar knew that he has to make a child with Lyanna. And i just have a question - was it stated somewhere in the book that he actually knew that? If it is that i have truly missed it and would be very grateful for a reference. It would be queer for a man (Rhaegar) to walk (kidnap or what ever) to a woman (Lyanna) and say - we have to have a baby because he will save the world.

I somehow have a feeling that all these prophecies are coming true all by them selves and without any involved person actually realizing it. And only that way - so nobody can meaningfully take a part. AND i also believe that IF Jon is the promised savior (AA or the Prince or any other) he should be as incarnation of love between ice and fire not well.. raping.

Also :D - Ned probably knew that Lyanna loved Rhaegar and that's why he protected Jon and kept protecting him because her lasts words were something like - promise me not to tell anybody and keep him safe etc. And he did it just because he loved his sister. What would Robert have done if had known so Ned could not reveal it anyhow for the sake of the boy or the king.

I bet it all has been written a thousand times and one but somehow there are really a lot of posts about both Ned and Rhaegar knowing things i personally believe they did not.

I'm late to the discussion, but the bit about Rhaegar reading at a young age something that forever changed him, made him dutiful and led him to take up arms stand out. As does the whole Dragon Needs thre Heads bit. And lots of smaller pieces scattered around. I'm sure there's chapter, verse and margin notes on it in these threads.

Ned's more of a stretch -- I agree. But why would he feel guilty about protecting an innocent child after he'd promised his dead sister he would? Especially when it's his nephew? And he not just guilty, he's anguished even after 15 years. I can see shame at deceiving his wife and having people believe he'd fathered a bastard -- but not such raw GUILT. Guilt is for someone who believes they may have done something wrong.

Obviously that's mostly subjective though. No doubt the first sentence of Book XI will read, "Ned knew nothing about Prince Rhaegar's plans."

[WDCRob]

Hi there, welcome to the forum! Ask away, any question that you have! :D

About Ned knowing of Rhaegar and Lyanna, you mean that at the time of elopement? Some of us, if not about all, think that it's Benjen that knew all along what was happening, as he might have been with her at the tourney of Harrenhal when she dressed up for her Knight of the Laughing Tree stint (Rhaegar must have found her/them per his father's orders and didn't name the identity of the Knight to Aerys out of admiration for her - or because she was some girl who wanted to teach those boys a lesson), and that's why he joined the Watch: out of guild because his father, oldest brother and only sister died, not to mention the whole war that came after that.

Ned thinks back on Lyanna's wolf blood (impulsiveness) as her having chosen to run away, but I don't think he meant that as having known what she was up to all along (as said, that's what we project more onto Benjen, whom she might have been closer to because Ned was fostered somewhere else.)

1) I'm not too sure what you mean by this.

2) Maybe Ned's attitude is more of a 'if I shut up it'll go away by itself, some day', lol. I think he might have gotten the full picture at the ToJ in those last moments he had with Lyanna. Some think there's evidence hiding in Lyanna's tomb of whom Jon is, and if he was legit, e.g. a wedding cloak. If Ned was presented with something like that, next to a baby that was born out of love and not rape, that would present the case that Rhaegar at least did the 'right' thing by not just bedding her but marrying her as well, even though there was another wife. (Which, as you seem to have noted, gives him the +1 over Robert, he who fathered bastards around the realm. Rhaegar must not have taken her just to have her, but to love her and he showed he was serious about it.)

3) I'm not too sure that Ned knows about the prophecy. I don't think he's given us any indication of that? As for the 'why would he protect', it's because his sister asked one last thing from him. The fear in her eyes until he promised it showed that she wasn't entirely sure that he would do it. It's paralleled with him lying right before he gets beheaded to try to save Sansa: family (> duty) > honour. Oh, and over here we're not really convinced he's a bastard, and of course Ned wouldn't blame a baby for the somewhat foolishness of his sister. See him trying to send Cersei and the children away before he'd announce they're bastards/his horror at having seen Rhaegar's murdered children and the resulting fight he had with Robert over that.

4) Robert Baratheon, his best friend who was a brother to him, and after the Rebellion his king, wanted to kill all dragonspawn. If you notice, even in AGoT when Robert comes to visit he already manages to say that he still wants to kill Rhaegar every day (Jon Arryn was the only one who kept him from sending people to kill Viserys and Daenerys). That sets the message once more that if it would ever come out that Jon was Lyanna's and not his bastard, that Jon would be dead, and not only that but there's no telling what Robert would do in his rage. (Again, see Ned wanting Cersei and the children to leave because Robert would be after their heads.) Furthermore, it would show that Ned had been committing treason since the events at the ToJ and that might not have only cost him his own head, but his family's as well, innocent or not. Also, him embracing Jon as his own means that Cat thinks of him as a cheater (with results to show for it), and he's had to live with that lie for 14 years. He knows she pretty much despises Jon and that she's had to 'endure' his presence for 14 years. There's the added thing that Ned even seems to feel guilty for raising Jon as a bastard, so perhaps he isn't one. Even he must see that Jon suffers from that stigma. Keeping that lie alive hurts himself and the people around him, but he's kind of doing it for his sister, to save her son from murder like the other Targaryen children, and his family as well.

The least Ned would want is for people to find out Lyanna and Rhaegar were in love, because that would make people think again of what happened before, and someone might find out or see something suspicious about him bringing home a bastard from basically nowhere.

This is what I was looking for, and it does punch holes in my question.

I'm just not fully convinced that Ned's level of guilt would come from keeping it from Kat. It feels like GRRM has set it up to be bigger than that, though I could be misreading it.

[nival]

This is what I was looking for, and it does punch holes in my question.

I'm just not fully convinced that Ned's level of guilt would come from keeping it from Kat. It feels like GRRM has set it up to be bigger than that, though I could be misreading it.

Well he also hid it from Jon.. Who as described in books suffered a lot from being a bastard.

[nival]

And he hid it from Robert - the almost brotherKing. He hated Rhaegar for raping Lyanna but would he love him more if he knew that Lyanna wanted it? And. well he started a war where thousands died.

[WDCRob]

And he hid it from Robert - the almost brotherKing. He hated Rhaegar for raping Lyanna but would he love him more if he knew that Lyanna wanted it? And. well he started a war where thousands died.

But he did those things for good reasons. Would he feel guilty for protecting an innocent baby or lying to Robert knowing Robert would kill Jon? I can see 'conflicted' or 'troubled' or 'torn' -- but anguished guilt? Just seems over the top. Again, subjectively.

[Maxpey]

But he did those things for good reasons. Would he feel guilty for protecting an innocent baby or lying to Robert knowing Robert would kill Jon? I can see 'conflicted' or 'troubled' or 'torn' -- but anguished guilt? Just seems over the top. Again, subjectively.

You hit the nail on the head with "subjectively." We are not talking about how Ned's choices would have affected you or me; we are talking about how they affected Ned.

Strict adherence to duty and honor was the code Ned lived by; lying, no matter how utilitarian, was completely contrary to Ned's entire belief system.

We also have two aggravating factors that compounded Ned's feelings of shame; one is the fact that his lies affected his loved ones the most, especially Robert, Cat and Jon; the other is that interacting with Cat and Jon on a daily basis was a constant reminder of what he had done. This also took a toll on him.

The bottom line is that Ned simply never forgave himself for his lies, no matter how justified they were to you and me under the circumstances.

[nival]

I,m not saying there can't be something more but subjectively i believe that it is all that's required for Ned to feel really terribly.

Just so, Maxpey :)

[Ghost's Shadow]

I think Robert Baratheon on some level knew that Lyanna chose Rhaegar over him, but it was easier for him to pretend she was raped hundreds of times. He could supposedly get it everywhere, but the one he 'loved' (was infatuated with) didn't want him. (As Lyanna stated to Ned.)

Also, the reason why Robert never got over her was that he'd never had her that way, because we're presented with Mya Stone and her mother, he grew tired of her and later the daughter. The same would have happened with Lyanna, especially since he didn't really know much of her at all (he saw her prettiness, but not the character under it.)

Ned really is a person who's as strict about honour as he can be. Deviation from it causes him pain. :lol: Remember it was high treason to keep it from his King, his friend and brother, his almost BIL. One person suspecting anything, or even a few wrong words spoken to the wrong person about where Jon came from: he hangs, and his family with him.

Lying about it was painful for the child involved (bastards are born from lust and have a bad reputation by default, even though the only bad bastard in the North I can think of right now is Ramsey), and I think we can all agree Jon has suffered for it, even though I think half of it is in his own mind (thanks for that Droopy-like personality there, Rhaegar!). Ned would never do that to his nephew if he didn't think it was necessary. And if you think about it, the rebellion, the defeat of the Targaryens meant no crown for his sister (let's say Elia died, or there's a Queen Consort title for her), and no claim to the throne for her child, either. Bastard with really no future versus Prince/Crown Prince: big difference there.

Catelyn was a very prideful woman, and the more pride you have, the more having your husband's wartime bastard around hurts. She had no issue with Ned sleeping around during the war, was expecting it, but her problem was having the evidence around. That's not done where she comes from. She's sure, I think, that Edmure has multiple bastards and was on his way to create more.

Another thing that might be considered with Ned: at 14, he was described as shy, and around 18 he suddenly gets everything that was his older brother's by right, including his marriage agreement. Did he sleep around before that? He sure wasn't Brandon in character, and he wouldn't dishonour his wife like that. I don't think he followed in Robert's footsteps either, using that one's popularity to get girls at the Vale. So, was he innocent like Robb was before Jeyne, or Jon before Ygritte? See what being innocent made Robb do, and how Jon struggled with giving up that part of himself before he did: putting Ghost in between himself and Ygritte so she couldn't jump him, just like in the knightly stories there's a sword between a knight and girl.

[Alia of the knife]

You hit the nail on the head with "subjectively." We are not talking about how Ned's choices would have affected you or me; we are talking about how they affected Ned.

Strict adherence to duty and honor was the code Ned lived by; lying, no matter how utilitarian, was completely contrary to Ned's entire belief system.

We also have two aggravating factors that compounded Ned's feelings of shame; one is the fact that his lies affected his loved ones the most, especially Robert, Cat and Jon; the other is that interacting with Cat and Jon on a daily basis was a constant reminder of what he had done. This also took a toll on him.

The bottom line is that Ned simply never forgave himself for his lies, no matter how justified they were to you and me under the circumstances.

I totally agree with this assessment on Ned, but I also think it would be too sweet that Neds lasting caveat is that he out-smarts the likes of Varys, Little Finger and the Queen of Thorns.

Update: I'm shocked and chagrined to find out that one of our Ravens players, Jacobi Jones, (who was already hurt) got hit on the head with a champagne bottle by a stripper named "Sweet Pea." :bang:

I think Robert Baratheon on some level knew that Lyanna chose Rhaegar over him, but it was easier for him to pretend she was raped hundreds of times. He could supposedly get it everywhere, but the one he 'loved' (was infatuated with) didn't want him. (As Lyanna stated to Ned.)

Also, the reason why Robert never got over her was that he'd never had her that way, because we're presented with Mya Stone and her mother, he grew tired of her and later the daughter. The same would have happened with Lyanna, especially since he didn't really know much of her at all (he saw her prettiness, but not the character under it.)

Ned really is a person who's as strict about honour as he can be. Deviation from it causes him pain. :lol: Remember it was high treason to keep it from his King, his friend and brother, his almost BIL. One person suspecting anything, or even a few wrong words spoken to the wrong person about where Jon came from: he hangs, and his family with him.

Lying about it was painful for the child involved (bastards are born from lust and have a bad reputation by default, even though the only bad bastard in the North I can think of right now is Ramsey), and I think we can all agree Jon has suffered for it, even though I think half of it is in his own mind (thanks for that Droopy-like personality there, Rhaegar!). Ned would never do that to his nephew if he didn't think it was necessary. And if you think about it, the rebellion, the defeat of the Targaryens meant no crown for his sister (let's say Elia died, or there's a Queen Consort title for her), and no claim to the throne for her child, either. Bastard with really no future versus Prince/Crown Prince: big difference there.

Catelyn was a very prideful woman, and the more pride you have, the more having your husband's wartime bastard around hurts. She had no issue with Ned sleeping around during the war, was expecting it, but her problem was having the evidence around. That's not done where she comes from. She's sure, I think, that Edmure has multiple bastards and was on his way to create more.

Another thing that might be considered with Ned: at 14, he was described as shy, and around 18 he suddenly gets everything that was his older brother's by right, including his marriage agreement. Did he sleep around before that? He sure wasn't Brandon in character, and he wouldn't dishonour his wife like that. I don't think he followed in Robert's footsteps either, using that one's popularity to get girls at the Vale. So, was he innocent like Robb was before Jeyne, or Jon before Ygritte? See what being innocent made Robb do, and how Jon struggled with giving up that part of himself before he did: putting Ghost in between himself and Ygritte so she couldn't jump him, just like in the knightly stories there's a sword between a knight and girl.

I've always felt that Robert knew deep down inside as well that Lyanna saw him for what he was.

On another thread discussing the parallels between aSoIaF and their possible, historical counterparts, I've found, and especially after watching "The White Queen," that Robert Berantheon and Edward IV bear a lot of similarities.

I had once thought there was similarities between Robert and Henry VIII, but I think while Henry was obsessed with getting a son, he is more like Maegor the Cruel who was similarly obsessed, threatening to execute his wives if they literally didn't deliver, and his polygamous marriages, parallel to Henrys wives. Robert in his hedonism and love of women is more like Edward IV, and Stannis, Richard III, with Jon following up as a potential Henry VII.

Edward "loved" Elizabeth Woodville because he could not have her, just as Robert "loved" Lyanna. She was the one woman he could not charm, or cozen into bed. When he finally tried to rape her out of desperation, she threatened to kill herself, so he had to marry her to have her.

He may have loved her in his own way,(though I think he loved himself more), but it didn't stop Edward from sleeping with other women, siring vast amounts of bastards. Cersei after her own fashion is very much like Elizabeth Woodville without being common, and the twist is that it is her behaviors that has made her children unsuitable for the throne, putting Stannis in line.

[Viserys - The last dragon]

amazing video of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

amazing video of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Wow!

Is that Aerys condemning Lyanna to burn? Very interesting ;)

[Alia of the knife]

amazing video of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Tastefully done.

[Eira Seren]

But do we need a direct reference to Ned bringing Jon from Starfall in order to support such an assumption? Like Corbon said in his last post, if people are gossiping N + A = J, it's reasonable to assume/infer that those same people believe that Jon came from Starfall.

I see what you mean. there is no direct reference in the text that I can recall that says that Jon looks like Lyanna. But we are willing to entertain it because GRRM keeps reminding us that Arya and Jon share similar features, and that Arya looks (and acts) like Lyanna.

[FrozenFire3]

I had once thought there was similarities between Robert and Henry VIII, but I think while Henry was obsessed with getting a son, he is more like Maegor the Cruel who was similarly obsessed, threatening to execute his wives if they literally didn't deliver, and his polygamous marriages, parallel to Henrys wives. Robert in his hedonism and love of women is more like Edward IV, and Stannis, Richard III, with Jon following up as a potential Henry VII.

Confirmed by his White Hound/Red Dragon coat of arms lol

Btw I love your new avatar :wub:

amazing video of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Beautifully and 'Merliny' done ;)

ETA A very nice fanart portraying Rhaegar at the ToH.

[Viserys - The last dragon]

Yeah, its always Merlin who gets cast of Rhaegar :) He has great scenes which fits perfectly. I hope Rhaegar will be cast for the show soon- in some flashbacks. Because at the moment none of my friends who only watch the show even knows who the guy is.. Some remember the name, but not quite his relation to the throne etc etc.

And R+L=J is a theory is based upon "evidence" which is presented to us in the early books, but this has not even gotten shown even a little in the show; at least not in the way that any of the TV watchers is able to analyze it towards such a theory- and I think that is sad.

I would also LOVE if GRRM made a book about Roberts R, and the tower of Joy etc. Do you believe he will ever do so?

[FrozenFire3]

Yeah, its always Merlin who gets cast of Rhaegar :) He has great scenes which fits perfectly. I hope Rhaegar will be cast for the show soon- in some flashbacks. Because at the moment none of my friends who only watch the show even knows who the guy is.. Some remember the name, but not quite his relation to the throne etc etc.

And R+L=J is a theory is based upon "evidence" which is presented to us in the early books, but this has not even gotten shown even a little in the show; at least not in the way that any of the TV watchers is able to analyze it towards such a theory- and I think that is sad.

True.

I would also LOVE if GRRM made a book about Roberts R, and the tower of Joy etc. Do you believe he will ever do so?

Gods, I don't even dare to dream it... Let's hope he will give us at least a little weirwoody glimpse into those events in the next two books... sigh!

[Ghost's Shadow]

I feel like saying I've seen people in here state they have friends who only watch the show and they managed to puzzle together who Jon's parents are, so it IS possible to get it from the show alone.

[Maxpey]

Update: I'm shocked and chagrined to find out that one of our Ravens players, Jacobi Jones, (who was already hurt) got hit on the head with a champagne bottle by a stripper named "Sweet Pea." :bang:

If only that had happened before the playoff game against the Broncos last year . . . :crying:

BTW, I like the new profile pic (the old one was cool as well)!

[Maxpey]

I feel like saying I've seen people in here state they have friends who only watch the show and they managed to puzzle together who Jon's parents are, so it IS possible to get it from the show alone.

Unless you're completely clueless, like me. Somehow, I managed NOT to pick it up from watching the show AND reading all 5 books. :bang: