Conversation with a Dying Man: the exact wording of Varys and Kevan's talk

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Arr. Peppers thought perhaps during the counsel meeting, Pycelle's little reminiscing of Jon Connington sparked some sort of odd connection. So he was like "Oh shit son...maybe i should check something out in this book. Blackfyre...Golden Company...oh my gods..*BOOM! Death by little kids*"

You never know. But i do think its possible that theres a connection between that and why Kevan was told to go there in the first place.

Same. Varys could have easily had them both killed separately. I get the feeling that the timing was an issue here, and Pycelle being prepared to blow the lid off of Aegon — using, say, info found in that book — might be what ultimately expedited the murders.

[Father of Hosts]

An interesting side note, if that book is the one Pycelle is dead on, I think that means every character we know who has read it bit the dust via murder.

[Mladen]

Same. Varys could have easily had them both killed separately. I get the feeling that the timing was an issue here, and Pycelle being prepared to blow the lid off of Aegon — using, say, info found in that book — might be what ultimately expedited the murders.

And when you add that to "he is dead"/"No. He is here" you get this brilliant move Varys made. His voice even changed. It got deeper. The sweet, tender Varys' talk became deeper. A subtle touch, perhaps, but you could argue that with Pycelle's death Varys' lie finally became truth, since he cut the last threatening loose end...

Arr. Peppers thought perhaps during the counsel meeting, Pycelle's little reminiscing of Jon Connington sparked some sort of odd connection. So he was like "Oh shit son...maybe i should check something out in this book. Blackfyre...Golden Company...oh my gods..*BOOM! Death by little kids*"

I was thinking more that Pycelle might have checked Targaryen family tree to see where did the boy come from, and realized that Blackfyre line was extinct only in male line. Then, he added GC to the equation and understood who Aegon is perfectly...

[butterbumps!]

Have we discussed that not only was Kevan shot but stabbed? Won't it seem weird when his body is found that someone went to that much trouble to kill him?

This is a really good point actually. Varys tells Kevan that he's using the crossbow, both because it "seems appropriate" as Kevan and Tywin "share so much," as well as a means of throwing the scent on Tyrion for this. Yet, the fact that he has multiple stabs is inconsistent with a "Tyrion dunnit" story. That's something that also doesn't add up to me.

[Summah]

When I read that conversation I think of Varys' conversation with Tyrion in ACOK when he says that "power resides where men believe it resides." If we take that theory and apply it to this situation, then if people believe Aegon is the son of Rhaegar than Aegon is, for all intents purposes, real, no matter his actual genetics.

[Foothill]

Yeah, I think PSA is a little much, although I felt that the OP was very inciteful.

I do get the feeling that some people who have done 8 rereads and have 5k+ posts talk down to some of the people who might be considered noobs (like me, only on my 3rd reread fail). And it's making the forums a less happy place. For me, at least.

I agree with this.

I, myself, have never had an issue, but you see this all the time. However, it is only a small handful of people that act that way.

[Rheagar Prime]

Man i like the use of the words "technical truth" and "half truths" because thats how varys truly operates. Still i gotta agree i know people base the assessment of varys still committing to the role because of what LF said about always playing the role or scheme when you set up even when people are not there, Still come on i gotta agree whats the sense in correcting a man you will take out of the game. As you claim it should be why didn't varys correct kevan, that mean that either he is technically telling the truth that this is the same aegon, that kevan is referring to. Or martin is just really being a dick and wants the issue of aegon legitimacy to remain ambiguous for the series.

PS thanx for pointing out that it was LF varys was refeering to as the boy that jon arryn brought up and was the poisoner i never picked that up. MIND EQUAL BLOWN

[IRON BANK]

I always took from the text that this Aegon was the project that iilryio and Vary's had been training, and was never a true Targ. Why would they Go through the trouble of smuggling a babay out of a surronded and besieged KL when they could just develop their own Story and come up with the details later. They both have enough intel and money to run their own private war regardless. Claiming a fake Aegon to rule in their name is just a necessity.

[Sansa_Stark]

Does Varys actually ever really lie?

[RoamingRonin]

Does Varys actually ever really lie?

IMHO: No. He doesn't.

However, not everyone here agrees on what constitutes a lie.

[Florina Laufeyson]

IMHO: No. He doesn't.

However, not everyone here agrees on what constitutes a lie.

I dont think Varys lies as much as just really knows how to not tell the truth outright. He drops clue-turds all over the place and on people's heads. Phrasing is everything to this dude. Its like he ponders "how do i form a statement without saying outright what the hell is really going on? Lets mess with their heads!" and proceeds to poop on them via little birds.

[Drexyon7]

So I like the theory but the "No" Varys says is in direct response to to Kevans comment about skull crushed Aegon.

As many times as i've seen posts about this conversation I always think: Why is it essential for Varys to say Aegon is Aegon Targ son of Rhaegar and Elia in conversation? To my knowledge there is no other Aegon with a claim to the IT so the necessity of using his full name seems ridiculous since Kevan and us the readers know who he Iis referring to.

[Mladen]

IMHO: No. He doesn't.

However, not everyone here agrees on what constitutes a lie.

I will use this in next "Sansa killed Lady" argument, because if Varys doesn't lie, neither did Sansa :)

I dont think Varys lies as much as just really knows how to not tell the truth outright. He drops clue-turds all over the place and on people's heads. Phrasing is everything to this dude. Its like he ponders "how do i form a statement without saying outright what the hell is really going on? Lets mess with their heads!" and proceeds to poop on them via little birds.

This. Baically, varys knows how to tell the truth so it sounds like nothing. Just remember his reports in ASOS to Small Council... All was said deliberately so no one would bother with those "rumors". And, the "half truths" on Tyrion's trial... Varys maybe doesn't lie openly, but he is not the guy that will tell truth in entirety too... And that is also important...

[Jessica Rogers]

Honestly I think BB, your over thinking because you believe in your heart of hearts that Aegon is a fake, so it clouds your judgement and you keep posting insisting that its evidence or its about its a lie Vierys tell but it all comes back Aegon but its interpretation, its how your reading it or rather how your making sense of it to yourself to make him a fake Aegon.

This is the second thread I have seen like this and I'm sure there is more, its okay because your entitled this opinion but there are a LOT of variables that haven't come to light yet, its similar to L+R=J there are so many variables that we don't know about, everyone thinks they do but GRRM and the producers of the show are the only ones that know for sure.

[RoamingRonin]

Honestly I think BB, your over thinking because you believe in your heart of hearts that Aegon is a fake, so it clouds your judgement and you keep posting insisting that its evidence or its about its a lie Vierys tell but it all comes back Aegon but its interpretation, its how your reading it or rather how your making sense of it to yourself to make him a fake Aegon.

This is the second thread I have seen like this and I'm sure there is more, its okay because your entitled this opinion but there are a LOT of variables that haven't come to light yet, its similar to L+R=J there are so many variables that we don't know about, everyone thinks they do but GRRM and the producers of the show are the only ones that know for sure.

This discussion is not about (f)Aegon's legitimacy. It's about Varys and his choice of words.

[Jessica Rogers]

which leads back to Aegons Legitimacy. . . .

[Mladen]

Honestly I think BB, your over thinking because you believe in your heart of hearts that Aegon is a fake, so it clouds your judgement and you keep posting insisting that its evidence or its about its a lie Vierys tell but it all comes back Aegon but its interpretation, its how your reading it or rather how your making sense of it to yourself to make him a fake Aegon.

This is the second thread I have seen like this and I'm sure there is more, its okay because your entitled this opinion but there are a LOT of variables that haven't come to light yet, its similar to L+R=J there are so many variables that we don't know about, everyone thinks they do but GRRM and the producers of the show are the only ones that know for sure.

I have to ask what variables... There is a significant amount of proof to conclude that Aegon is fake, and naturally this entire analysis is based on that pile. I am sorry, but overanalysis/clouding judgement arguments have to be followed with something more... I would like to hear what you think BB and DrP missed...

[Florina Laufeyson]

which leads back to Aegons Legitimacy. . . .

Yes and no. Varys doesnt say anything about Aegon's bloodline. Hes being deliberately ambiguous with his statement. What it really brings up is, if anyone (Pycelle) actually figured something out and thats why he got shanked to oblivion or not. (srsly..why did Varys kill him? Welp, there is already a thread on that..) But his wording to Kevan doesnt prove nor disprove anything about Aegon. Just that he leaves something out, without really lying about it.

The OP pointed out how Varys did something similar by shitting a huge clue-turd on Ned's head way back in the first book. The wording about that is just as ambiguous as this instance. Perhaps there are other clue-turds to find throughout the series to crack the code that is Varys.

[Jessica Rogers]

I don't think there is a ton of evidence against him.

you have a baby with a smashed in face, how does anyone ID a baby with a smashed in face?, their might be a birth mark but there is no

evidence in the book, no one ever says anything about Aegon having any definding features other than he looks like his dad.

What do we really know about Varys, we know he's been cut and he hates magic, now I know your going talk about the red priest illyrio has wondering around his property, but how does he have any control over what illyrio? I'm not saying he's not capable harm or lying because he's already proven other wise but it doesn't mean he's lying to Kevon before he kills him.

Joncon is completely convinced, he was rhaegars best friend,

also, wasn't there someone that helped convince Elia to switch babies, I though it was Joncon but I think I'm mistaken

I personally think it could go either way.

[butterbumps!]

which leads back to Aegons Legitimacy. . . .

Well, not exactly, no. This thread wasn't supposed to be a debate about whether Aegon is real or not, as per the first sentence of the OP. There are other threads for debating that issue. This is instead about looking at the final DwD to see what's both said and unsaid there.

I don't think there is a ton of evidence against him.

you have a baby with a smashed in face, how does anyone ID a baby with a smashed in face?, their might be a birth mark but there is no

evidence in the book, no one ever says anything about Aegon having any definding features other than he looks like his dad.

What do we really know about Varys, we know he's been cut and he hates magic, now I know your going talk about the red priest illyrio has wondering around his property, but how does he have any control over what illyrio? I'm not saying he's not capable harm or lying because he's already proven other wise but it doesn't mean he's lying to Kevon before he kills him.

Joncon is completely convinced, he was rhaegars best friend,

also, wasn't there someone that helped convince Elia to switch babies, I though it was Joncon but I think I'm mistaken

I personally think it could go either way.

This isn't really the thread for this, but just so you know, Jon Con never met Aegon until Aegon was 6. He had nothing to do with the swap. Varys contacted him 5 years after the Sack.