Heresy 73

[LynnS]

Even though the latter could be the right answer, I like the idea of it be a concealing glamour.

I don't discount the glamour affect either. In aGoT Prologue; Will describes the watchers:

Behind him to right, to left, all around him, the watchers stood patient, faceless, silent, the shifting patterns of their delicate armor making them all but invisible.

They have stealth armor and their faces are hidden. That irritates me as much as Sam closing his eyes when he stabs the popsicle with dragonglass. All we get are descriptions of their eyes, how they melt and how they move. LOL!

I did find it curious that Sam describes the popsicle as graceful and thin as a sword. Much the same way that Will describes Waymar Royce... graceful and thin as a blade. And Sam's nemesis couldn't keep hold of his own sword. Small Paul keeled over and yanked it out of the popsicles hand.

I don't see why they can't be both glamored and affect the surrounding environment.

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[Harlan]

Wait a minute i think you got your charatetistcs mixed up CO2 is colorless and odorless as you yourself quoted it is " odorless and colorless . But I must admit i love love the CO2 idea it would be ironic . Also what would be the source it is produced from respiration for one so who or what is expelling it?

CO2 is generally said to be odorless because it can't be smelt under normal concentrations, but in relatively high concentrations it is detectable, had you read the rest of the quote you would see that it can be smelt as a slight pungent odor with a biting taste.

[Black Crow]

Rather like water. Normally humans can't smell it, but as is well known other animals can do so. I can occasionally smell water too if the climatic conditions are right and I don't suppose for a moment I'm unique.

That being said, I'm still in favour of the lads being corporeal, but just very very cold and affecting the climate around them accordingly.

[LynnS]

CO2 is generally said to be odorless because it can't be smelt under normal concentrations, but in relatively high concentrations it is detectable, had you read the rest of the quote you would see that it can be smelt as a slight pungent odor with a biting taste.

Then Royce's parry came a beat too late. The pale sword bit through the ringmail beneath his arm. The young lord cried out in pain. Blood welled between the rings. It steamed in the cold, and the droplets seem red as fire where they touched the snow.

Hypoxia?

http://en.wikipedia....poxia_(medical)

Edit: Just for crackpottery sake; could the polar cap be C02 as on Mars; the rusty red comet an allusion to the red planet?

[Urrax]

There are two possible explanations not requiring their having a misty form.

The magical explanation is that its just the effect of their emerging from a concealing glamour.

The prosaic explanation is that they are so cold the air condenses in close proximity to them.

On balance I have to confess the latter seems so ridiculously simple its most likely the right answer.

A win for Mr. Occam!

[JonNonRegis]

A win for Mr. Occam!

Yes. Though Occam is so powerful it's pretty clear he's a lord.

[wolfmaid7]

CO2 is generally said to be odorless because it can't be smelt under normal concentrations, but in relatively high concentrations it is detectable, had you read the rest of the quote you would see that it can be smelt as a slight pungent odor with a biting taste.

Did see it conceded it in another post , I actually said I liked the irony of " the cold " being something as simple as CO2 . Went on to question it's source it's clearly not atmospheric it seems to be cyclical. Another great source of CO2 is that its produce when organisms respire so if " the Cold" is the byproduct of something biological what ?

[Harlan]

Did see it conceded it in another post , I actually said I liked the irony of " the cold " being something as simple as CO2 . Went on to question it's source it's clearly not atmospheric it seems to be cyclical. Another great source of CO2 is that its produce when organisms respire so if " the Cold" is the byproduct of something biological what ?

Your questions got me thinking. What if the popsicles are natures balancing act. What if they exist to fight global warming. In other words, a CO2 concentration rise would cause WW to begin to form in order to combat the excess heat stored in the atmosphere by the CO2. It would mean that this novel series was more A song of Hot and Cold rather than a Song of Ice and Fire but who knows... Any one know whether GRRM cares about Globabl warming?

[redriver]

To touch on wyverns and the comet idea that I've been toying with, (that the original hammer of the waters was a comet called down by the greenseers,and may have split into pieces which fell on the Arm,Valyria and Asshai),I linked the Dothraki legend of the moon splitting and letting loose a million dragons.

Tyrion attaches a lot of importance to Barth's Wyrms,Wyverns and Dragons,their unnatural history.Even within the title there seems to be a sense of evolution.From worms who burn their way through rock,to snake like creatures with wings and small front legs to full blown dragons.The unnatural part could refer to both the comet source of the prototype dragon life and the magic used in their development and control.

In a recent SSM Martin dismissed the notion of visiting Valyria in the novels but then he cryptically inferred that we might see Valyria in the past.

[wolfmaid7]

Your questions got me thinking. What if the popsicles are natures balancing act. What if they exist to fight global warming. In other words, a CO2 concentration rise would cause WW to begin to form in order to combat the excess heat stored in the atmosphere by the CO2. It would mean that this novel series was more A song of Hot and Cold rather than a Song of Ice and Fire but who knows... Any one know whether GRRM cares about Globabl warming?

I don't know I really do love the idea though but Towyins death contradicts that now that I think of it he was asleep in the Wildling camp when he died and rose. From Tourmonds statement this seems to indicate intelligence to single him out. However he was weak and I theorized that "the cold " was attracted to impending death or the weak so it's possible that Tourmonds son was already compromised because he was so sickly .

Something to look over that in a medieval society what may seem magical may just in this case be how this planets Ecosystem works . I do like the co2 idea and think its something worth looking into.

I said it before " the cold " needs to do what it's doing an head south because there is just too much people so maybe it is a balancing act of some kind .

[Urrax]

...In a recent SSM Martin dismissed the notion of visiting Valyria in the novels but then he cryptically inferred that we might see Valyria in the past.

Was that Valyria, or Asshai? I know he said no Asshai but I thought Valyria was still open.

[Black Crow]

I don't know I really do love the idea though but Towyins death contradicts that now that I think of it he was asleep in the Wildling camp when he died and rose. From Tourmonds statement this seems to indicate intelligence to single him out.

I'm not so sure about the singling out.

GRRM has said that disease will play an increasing part in events to come. On one level that sounds straightforward enough, as in war, famine, pestilence in a natural progression. However we've also noted other things like greyscale. What if the wight business is some kind of virus spread by the blue-eyed lot. I know that normally cold inhibits viruses, but hey, this is Martn's world of magic and marvels.

Someone gets infected. The virus just sits there, doing nothing until the host dies, then wakes up and takes over...

[Black Crow]

Was that Valyria, or Asshai? I know he said no Asshai but I thought Valyria was still open.

That was my understanding too.

[Joe Pine]

To touch on wyverns and the comet idea that I've been toying with, (that the original hammer of the waters was a comet called down by the greenseers,and may have split into pieces which fell on the Arm,Valyria and Asshai),I linked the Dothraki legend of the moon splitting and letting loose a million dragons.

Makes sense. I guess the question that follows is how the greenseers summon a comet though?

Tyrion attaches a lot of importance to Barth's Wyrms,Wyverns and Dragons,their unnatural history.Even within the title there seems to be a sense of evolution.From worms who burn their way through rock,to snake like creatures with wings and small front legs to full blown dragons.The unnatural part could refer to both the comet source of the prototype dragon life and the magic used in their development and control.

An evolution of wyrms to dragons makes sense, I guess controlling them is the trickiest part to explain

In a recent SSM Martin dismissed the notion of visiting Valyria in the novels but then he cryptically inferred that we might see Valyria in the past.

The height of the freehold. Why didn't they invade Westeros then with their dragons, sorcery and armies?

[wolfmaid7]

I'm not so sure about the singling out.

GRRM has said that disease will play an increasing part in events to come. On one level that sounds straightforward enough, as in war, famine, pestilence in a natural progression. However we've also noted other things like greyscale. What if the wight business is some kind of virus spread by the blue-eyed lot. I know that normally cold inhibits viruses, but hey, this is Martn's world of magic and marvels.

Someone gets infected. The virus just sits there, doing nothing until the host dies, then wakes up and takes over...

Agree with you hence my re- edit indicating Towins already weakened disposition. Viruses thrive more in the cold and their are some bacteria that are know as extremapiles that thrive in the very hot and the very cold so it is possible .

[redriver]

Was that Valyria, or Asshai? I know he said no Asshai but I thought Valyria was still open.

Worthwhile reading all of it,but scroll straight down to the end.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Interview_in_Barcelona/

[Black Crow]

Agree with you hence my re- edit indicating Towins already weakened disposition. Viruses thrive more in the cold and their are some bacteria that are know as extremapiles that thrive in the very hot and the very cold so it is possible .

That might then also explain those raised from the dead by Fire as in Beric and Catelyn. Both were raised by passing something on. Was Thoros a carrier of the Fire virus?

And with that happy thought I'm for bed. Good night all.

[Black Crow]

Worthwhile reading all of it,but scroll straight down to the end.

http://www.westeros....w_in_Barcelona/

Yep, good one. Useful to get a proper text.

Is there any chance we'll see Valyria?

Well.... there may be. Not a great chance, mind you. The question is, is it going to be a look at Valyria now, or Valyria in the past?

[Urrax]

...The height of the freehold. Why didn't they invade Westeros then with their dragons, sorcery and armies?

Maybe they thought it wasn't worth the effort. Maybe they had their hands full with the Free Cities.

[redriver]

Makes sense. I guess the question that follows is how the greenseers summon a comet though?

Theon tells us that the greenseers "called down the hammer of the waters" to break Westeros in two at the neck.This implies a percussive act.Unless the manufactured an actual hammer,it's likely a comet both at the neck and the arm.

An evolution of wyrms to dragons makes sense, I guess controlling them is the trickiest part to explain

We are told the original Valyrian shepherds used sorcery to learn how to control the Dragons.Perhaps they started with Wyrms and worked upwards from there.

The height of the freehold. Why didn't they invade Westeros then with their dragons, sorcery and armies?

One of the key questions of the series.Suggestions range from Who needs Westeros ?to perhaps dragons aren't suited to Westeros?