Snow Castle Kiss. Discussing LF and not Sansa.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I think the kiss was deliberate on Littlefinger's part. But I don't think it was planned ahead of time--it was improvised.

That is LF's MO. He is a gambler, a risk-taker. He is addicted to the adrenalin rush he gets from winning these crazy games he plays, like the dagger. And he admits that he thrives on chaos. He seizes opportunities and turns on a dime, changing all his plans at the last minute according to the circumstances.

Other posters have said that there were easier, safer ways of getting rid of Lysa, whose mental instability was making her more and more of a liability. Once LF was married to this woman, who he felt neither affection nor desire for but who loved him madly, he had no futher need of her. As Sweetrobin's stepfather and a lord in his own right, he was positioned to take control of the Vale upon ridding himself of Lysa. But her death needed to be beyond suspicion. He needed a plausible scapegoat, whom he found in Marillion.

At the same time, he needed to strengthen his grasp on Sansa. He needed to cut her off completely from seeking help from anyone but himself. She was already a wanted criminal after he framed her and Tyrion for Jofrey's death, but there were still lords in the Vale who wanted to support the Young Wolf, who might side with a Stark against the Lannisters. Bronze Yohn Royce is the chief of these, and Sansa has met him before. So Littlefinger must make sure she is afraid to turn to BY. Since LF is a corrupt man, blackmail is the method that automatically occurs to him. If he can implicate Sansa in one of his own crimes, she will be forced to defend him in order to save herself.

Lysa had already shown signs of being jealous of Sansa, of resentment toward Cat. It would have been easy for LF to notice her watching him and Sansa. Knowing of her emotional imbalance, he took advantage of the opportunity to push her over the edge figuratively first, so that he might then push her over the edge literally, through the Moon Door. He accurately predicted that the same manipulative skills that drove her to poison her husband could drive her to try to kill her niece. And he would charge in and save the girl. Just as he helped her escape King's Landing. Now he is her bona fide hero, and she is bound to him by not only a life debt, but her share of guilt in the death of her aunt and LF's coverup.

LF thinks he has won again. But he doesn't know what goes on in Sansa's mind. Alayne is a dutiful daughter, but Sansa compares LF with others and he comes up lacking:

I believe that if Sansa gets a clear opportunity, she will break from LF, much to his surprise. When a person is addicted to gambling, he keeps pushing his luck, following the streak, until he has lost everything. LF is playing to lose, but doesn't know it yet.

This post is all very well thought out, and basically sums up why I entertain the notion that kiss could have been planned, too. The gambling analogies are very apt, too, and yes, I suspect LF will gamble his life away without even realizing the danger right next him. His creepy obssession with Sansa is his blind spot, and he doesn't seem to realize that he may be arming her with all the information that may eventually lead to her giving him a death sentence.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

I don't think arranging marriages for her for his own benefit.......rules out Creepfinger trying to sleep with her, eventually.

that's what I told, he desires her, but he won't marry her, but, yes, I think he will try to take her maidenhood

[ladytiger]

that's what I told, he desires her, but he won't marry her, but, yes, I think he will try to take her maidenhood

I could see him using the First Night right on her.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

that's what I told, he desires her, but he won't marry her, but, yes, I think he will try to take her maidenhood

I wonder if he'd be foolish enough to go for the maidenhood. That is one card he has that is very useful, it helps make Sansa's marriage null and void, if ever it comes to that and they/he gets tired of waiting for news of Tyrion's death, not to mention that maidenhead is a card he keeps on playing.

Although, LF is soooooooooooooooo creepy with her, I could see him having the idea to marry her, get Harry the Heir (or whoever) roaring drunk, and LF would try and 'do the honors' for him. Then again, LF is so Sansa obssessed, I'm not certain the maidenhead is all that important to him. I think, hell......he'd like to hand her off to a pig for one night to consumate a marriage, then try and sleep with her and be her romantic hero, as a contrast. He is one sick puppy when it comes to her.

[Veltigar]

I don't think LF is after Sansa's maidenhood per se. He wants her to be completely dependent on him, he wants her to see him like the shining hero, just like he wanted Cat to see him as such when he challenged Brandon. He wants to have sex with her eventually for sure, but not the actual virginity if that would endanger his plans.

[sarah.jenice]

If LF wanted to get rid of Lysa, there were much safer courses of action. Poison, etc.

Plus Lysa's death created problems for him. He'd have been better off getting rid of her a year or two later, once he had established himself firmly in control in the Vale, got more influential nobles backing him up, etc.

I agree with this. I don't think he had planned to kill Lysa so soon, and her death has created problems with his hold on the Vale.

Also, I don't think he would have wanted Sansa to hear all of the things Lysa said so he wouldn't have taken that risk.

He has always wanted Cat and I think he got carried away with his new Cat. I'm sure Sansa looked really beautiful since it was one of the first times she was happy in a while.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Littlefinger asked Cersei if he could marry Sansa, when he discovered the plot to marry Sansa to Willas Tyrell, but Cersei told him no, and so Sansa was married to Tyrion. I think he does want her, though I agree he doesn't necessarily wants her maidenhood. I totally agree with Veltigar. He sees Sansa as a younger version of Catelyn, and he wants her to become what Cat never wanted to be: completely dependend on him, and in love with him.

Littlefinger is one creepy guy, and he's totally obsessed with Sansa, something which will probably mess up his plans one day. It is possible that he'll first marry Sansa to Harry the Heir, and then proceeds to get rid of anyone who could possibly get the Vale after Sweetrobin dies (I'm not sure if there's anyone else left besides Harry). When they are all gone, Littlefinger will get rid of Sweetrobin (illness or something similar, like his episodes) and then Harry the Heir will die (there will be war again, he could die fighting, or he could be killed by outlaws or the clansmen), leaving Sansa as the only heir to the Vale (Lady Barbary Dustin inherited her husbands lands when he passed without any bloodrelative left). This would make Sansa the key to both the Vale and the North (and in a way, Riverrun).

[Dornishpenguin]

I think that it would have been too much of a risk for LF to kiss Sansa in the hopes that Lysa would retaliate. It seems like most of his plans hinge on Sansa now (not to mention his creepy obsession with her). Sansa was extremely close to being pushed out the Moon Door, and Lysa was clearly unpredictable. He might have been planning something in the long term where he would kill Lysa in order to implicate Sansa/paint himself as her savior, but I don't think it was that moment. If he meant for Lysa to see, I don't believe that he thought Lysa would try to kill Sansa.

I think that it showed his blind spot for Sansa- he is much more inclined to be reckless where she is concerned. Cersei reflects that LF had once asked for Sansa's hand in marriage, which despite his wealth was obviously an inappropriate match that could have drawn attention to his interest in her.

[JJtheCrow]

Why make it anything other than Littlefinger testing the waters with Sansa. He wanted to kiss her. She's a beautiful girl and in a vulnerable position. I think you are assuming to much by stating Lysa "may" have been watching. We could play that game with every scene in the book and it just doesn't make sense to do so.

[The Dragon & The Wolf]

Regardless if it was a scheme or true desire for Cat 2.0 HE IS A CREEP!! He needs to be put down & I really hope that Sansa is the one to do it.

Marry her?! Your kidding me right...

[Ice Turtle]

I think that the kiss was deliberate, however the intention wasn't to kill Lysa but to alienate Lysa and Sansa and severe their relationship. The plan was to play with Lysa's jealousy to make her more eager to please him to keep him, to break Sansa/Robin betrothal,to make Sansa more isolated and drive home a lesson about not trusting even her family.

[IRON BANK]

LF is saving Sansa for himself, a replacement for the Cat he never had once he reveals that she is a Stark and that Tully blood still sits in her veins the whole relationship will be an easy sell.

[Lady Isobel]

LF is a very calculating player so I do believe the kiss was deliberate. It is true that Lysa's death did cause some (minor IMO) problems for him but he managed to secure his place quite easily again. Lysa was a wildcard and very hard to control. Remember that LF wanted a proper wedding ceremony with all the important Lords and Ladies of the Vale present but Lysa couldn't wait so she made him marry her at the Fingers. Afterwards he had to keep her satisfied - which I don't think made him very happy :stillsick: - and I believe he was getting tired of her and her whims plus he was worried she might expose Sansa (who is valuable to him in more ways than one). It's true there was a great risk involved in kissing Sansa in front of Lysa but what is LF if not a gambler?

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I think that the kiss was deliberate, however the intention wasn't to kill Lysa but to alienate Lysa and Sansa and severe their relationship. The plan was to play with Lysa's jealousy to make her more eager to please him to keep him, to break Sansa/Robin betrothal,to make Sansa more isolated and drive home a lesson about not trusting even her family.

I do think about this aspect of it, when I wonder about LF setting up the kiss. It would be to drive Lysa further down the road of BSC, and yes, to isolate Sansa, too. I'm thinking it is possible that those were the motives, but drunken, crazy Lysa upped the plans. I do think LF did plan to kill Lysa eventually, and as usual, his hand was forced early because all his pawns do have minds of their own, and Lysa's mind was already far enough gone. I think that is why it worked out, so far, while lots of the Vale nobility wanted their hands on Sweet Robin, none of them mourned her passing, and even seem to not care if LF killed her or not. For those from the Vale, Lysa was always in the way anyway, Lysa was skirt that LF hid behind for awhile, but he didn't plan on keeping her around forever.

I still do think, though, there is something to LF just not being able to help himself, and he played on that with Lysa knowing that too, and just didn't count on having to dispose of her quite then, possibly.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

LF is a very calculating player so I do believe the kiss was deliberate. It is true that Lysa's death did cause some (minor IMO) problems for him but he managed to secure his place quite easily again. Lysa was a wildcard and very hard to control. Remember that LF wanted a proper wedding ceremony with all the important Lords and Ladies of the Vale present but Lysa couldn't wait so she made him marry her at the Fingers. Afterwards he had to keep her satisfied - which I don't think made him very happy :stillsick: - and I believe he was getting tired of her and her whims plus he was worried she might expose Sansa (who is valuable to him in more ways than one). It's true there was a great risk involved in kissing Sansa in front of Lysa but what is LF if not a gambler?

This is what I think is possible, too. He might not have meant to have to kill her right then, but it was something he was going to do anyway, and yes, the point about how Lysa forced the marriage is a good point, too. She was getting to be too dangerous a piece to keep around, and their marriage already served his purposes. She was playing on borrowed time, and never knew it. ITA, the idea of being with Lysa at all had to drive LF crazy.

[jon stark I]

The thing about LF is he nows how to manipulate peoples emotions.He made Lysa believe LF loved her.In the end she was so mad she blamed everyone except LF.I think LF knew Lysa was watching and I think he kissed Sansa both out of passion(perverted pasion) and to make Lysa go nuts.LF planned it ahead.I think he would have found another way to kill her but this was the best opportunity.There was a man he could blame and he might not have found someone to blame later.He knew Marillions attempt of rape he knew lords didn't love him he already had some lords under his power but not even those lords would have followed LF after learning he killed Lysa.So he had the prefect opportunity to finally remove Lysa from the game.And Lysa knew too much if she didn't I don't think he would have killed her.She might be a lunatic but she would have done anything LF wanted.But knowing too much was Lysas fault.

And there is LFs perverted affection to Sansa.I really think he will try to rape her at some point.LF is usually very smart he keeps everything hidden from everyone but when he is around Sansa he gets wierd.He tells her too much and teaches her in playing the game.

[KingofSothoryos]

I think the kiss was LF trying to see if Sansa could be a replacement for Catelyn in his heart. I think from the kiss he realizes that he doesn't desire her like he did Catelyn and though she's beautiful, young and nubile, LF ain't gonna throw away everything for her like he was willing to do for Catelyn when he was younger. Whether he realized that he couldn't love anyone like that again or simply that he didn't love her even though she reminded him so much of Catelyn was the point of the scene from his perspective.

[jon stark I]

I don't think so if he realized he didn't love Sansa or desired her then he wouldn't push her too much for those kisses.He looks not pleased when he sees Sansas reaction to his kiss.He wants Sansa.