Question.Did Rhaegar have a polygamous marriage after Elia?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I don't see what's the point of the completely unsupported idea that Rhaegar secretly married Lyanna, so as far as Westeros is concerned, the marriage didn't happen.

I think it's actually very well-supported if you read between the lines, especially when looking at the Tower of Joy and what happened there and who was there. Beyond that, if GRRM wants it to be known, he'll make it so.

[SkaggCannibal]

They never married, not a single sane septon would participate in it. Even if they found one drunk enough, it wouldn't be legal, no High Septon would allow it. It would be like Sansa marrying Harry the Heir while still being married to Tyrion. Sure you can claim it's legal, doesn't make it so. You shouldn't try to make Elia and Lyanna these obedient girls, just because it gives Jon a better claim. It's wrong, it's an abomination and it hasn't happened in 300 years. Jon still has a claim as bastard, be happy about that.

[Jon of the Dead]

What if they got married by a red priest? Maybe they do have the authority to marry people.

Rhaegar was already obssessed with the prophecy of the PtwP, which could very well be AA, so a red priest would be delighted to be involved.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

They never married, not a single sane septon would participate in it. Even if they found one drunk enough, it wouldn't be legal, no High Septon would allow it. It would be like Sansa marrying Harry the Heir while still being married to Tyrion. Sure you can claim it's legal, doesn't make it so. You shouldn't try to make Elia and Lyanna these obedient girls, just because it gives Jon a better claim. It's wrong, it's an abomination and it hasn't happened in 300 years. Jon still has a claim as bastard, be happy about that.

And yet it looks like the point of "abduction" is in very close proximity to both an island of weirwoods — no septon necessary — as well as the circuit of a wandering septon who performs marriages and also kind of plays by his own rules. Like I said, if GRRM wants it to be shown, he'll do it. I think we have everything we need to conclude that they were married, it's just a matter of it being confirmed.

And funny that you mention Tyrion's marriage to Sansa preventing her from marrying Harry, when it's very possible that Tyrion's marriage to Tysha could be used to invalidate his marriage to Sansa.

[SkaggCannibal]

And yet it looks like the point of "abduction" is in very close proximity to both an island of weirwoods — no septon necessary — as well as the circuit of a wandering septon who performs marriages and also kind of plays by his own rules. Like I said, if GRRM wants it to be shown, he'll do it. I think we have everything we need to conclude that they were married, it's just a matter of it being confirmed.

And funny that you mention Tyrion's marriage to Sansa preventing her from marrying Harry, when it's very possible that Tyrion's marriage to Tysha could be used to invalidate his marriage to Sansa.

Indead, while it's indeniable that Rhaegar had a real consumated marriage with Elia. Yes it's true if GRRM wants it, it will have happened. I just have trust in GRRM that he doesn't make it happen. He's about empowerment of women, not about using them. He's not gonna make Elia and Lyanna the easy willing spouses of a true prince, that's something sexist he'll never write. Maybe you don't see it like that, but a man married to two women and no one having a problem with it, can't see it any other way. Specially because we haven't had any woman married to two men.

[sebitapincha]

They never married, not a single sane septon would participate in it. Even if they found one drunk enough, it wouldn't be legal, no High Septon would allow it. It would be like Sansa marrying Harry the Heir while still being married to Tyrion. Sure you can claim it's legal, doesn't make it so. You shouldn't try to make Elia and Lyanna these obedient girls, just because it gives Jon a better claim. It's wrong, it's an abomination and it hasn't happened in 300 years. Jon still has a claim as bastard, be happy about that.

It's implied they were married because of the presence of the three KG at the ToJ. Otherwise they would've left for Dragonstone were their King (Viserys) was.

And (before anyone says it) no, they wouldn't have stayed there only because Rhaegar told them to. Their priority is to protect the king, who IIRC is unprotected (I mean there are no KG with him, and IIRC Jaime says that there must always be a KG guarding the King).

Also, it has been mentioned in this thread that there have been cases of polygamy even after the death of the dragons, which I think was about 100 years ago (not 300 for sure). Jorah's comment to Dany regarding the possibility of marrying more than once also supports this.

I'm sure there would be some problems arising from this marriage, particularly the Martells getting pissed off, but Rhaegar could've gotten away with it.

This isn't about us wanting Jon to be King, it's about the evidence that is presented in the books that very strongly supports this theory.

[Mladen]

Indead, while it's indeniable that Rhaegar had a real consumated marriage with Elia. Yes it's true if GRRM wants it, it will have happened. I just have trust in GRRM that he doesn't make it happen. He's about empowerment of women, not about using them. He's not gonna make Elia and Lyanna the easy willing spouses of a true prince, that's something sexist he'll never write. Maybe you don't see it like that, but a man married to two women and no one having a problem with it, can't see it any other way. Specially because we haven't had any woman married to two men.

And for a second I thought this is about ASOIAF and its plot. And look at that, it's about M word, sexist writing and empowerment of women...

Come on, guys... If you have arguments to use against the theory, by all means do it, but these, "it would be sexist" arguments are unproductive and lastly never brings anything good...

[Arthur Dayne's Honor]

How is Lyanna choosing to marry Rhaegar, a man she seemingly loved, sexist. Especially in a culture where women get little to no say in who they marry. To me that is pretty empowered.

[CosimaistheHottest]

It's implied they were married because of the presence of the three KG at the ToJ. Otherwise they would've left for Dragonstone were their King (Viserys) was.

And (before anyone says it) no, they wouldn't have stayed there only because Rhaegar told them to. Their priority is to protect the king, who IIRC is unprotected (I mean there are no KG with him, and IIRC Jaime says that there must always be a KG guarding the King).

Also, it has been mentioned in this thread that there have been cases of polygamy even after the death of the dragons, which I think was about 100 years ago (not 300 for sure). Jorah's comment to Dany regarding the possibility of marrying more than once also supports this.

I'm sure there would be some problems arising from this marriage, particularly the Martells getting pissed off, but Rhaegar could've gotten away with it.

This isn't about us wanting Jon to be King, it's about the evidence that is presented in the books that very strongly supports this theory.

I thought it was 200 years ago.

Just because they said the marriage vows doesn't mean that they would be accepted by the kingdom at large. The Kingsguard who does whatever royals tell them accept. We really don't know if Rhaegar could have gotten away with it because of the simple fact that it was never put to the test. If anything if Rhaegar had won the war, Lyanna probably still be dead. He could treat her as his wife then. Doesn't mean other people would just be okay with it. He probably doesn't even know. So he would just takes steps to doubly legitimized Jon just in case.

[CosimaistheHottest]

Indead, while it's indeniable that Rhaegar had a real consumated marriage with Elia. Yes it's true if GRRM wants it, it will have happened. I just have trust in GRRM that he doesn't make it happen. He's about empowerment of women, not about using them. He's not gonna make Elia and Lyanna the easy willing spouses of a true prince, that's something sexist he'll never write. Maybe you don't see it like that, but a man married to two women and no one having a problem with it, can't see it any other way. Specially because we haven't had any woman married to two men.

They never married, not a single sane septon would participate in it. Even if they found one drunk enough, it wouldn't be legal, no High Septon would allow it. It would be like Sansa marrying Harry the Heir while still being married to Tyrion. Sure you can claim it's legal, doesn't make it so. You shouldn't try to make Elia and Lyanna these obedient girls, just because it gives Jon a better claim. It's wrong, it's an abomination and it hasn't happened in 300 years. Jon still has a claim as bastard, be happy about that.

I understand what you are saying but some people won't.

Everything goes back to the fandoms love for Rhaegar, Jon and Lyanna at times.

To some, Rhaegar and Lyanna can do no wrong. They are blameless. It was everyone else's fault but never theirs.

Rhaegar is the sad perfect silver-haired prince who plays a harp who is one was one of the top warriors in Westeros. Except he died in his first battle but he still is. Everyone loves him except for that stupid Brandon and horrible Robert. His own wife is just so willing to accept whatever he wants and does because he is the Bestest Greatest prince ever who has never had any true responsibilities that we know of.

Lyanna the 15 year old She-Wolf. She does whatever she wants. She's willful, impulsive and strong. She didn't mean for people to get hurt except any smart person would know that there was a chance of conflict. Maybe not a full scale war but something.

I do wonder if these two weren't very attractive. If Rhaegar was a sad ugly guy and Lyanna wasn't attractive if these two would get the same praise.

I mean if other people had done what they did. Some of the praisers would destroy them. Let's not forget their lovely offspring...

Jon. This guy is The Prince who was promised, Azor Ahai, Head of the Dragon, King of the Iron Throne. King in the North. He will have both a dragon and a direwolf. He is also the Blue Rose. The people are just gonna hand him the throne because he doesn't want it but he will be forced to take it because he is the best. Except what if he was a terrible King. It doesn't mattter because it's Jon Starkgaryen.

[sebitapincha]

I thought it was 200 years ago.

Just because they said the marriage vows doesn't mean that they would be accepted by the kingdom at large. The Kingsguard who does whatever royals tell them accept. We really don't know if Rhaegar could have gotten away with it because of the simple fact that it was never put to the test. If anything if Rhaegar had won the war, Lyanna probably still be dead. He could treat her as his wife then. Doesn't mean other people would just be okay with it. He probably doesn't even know. So he would just takes steps to doubly legitimized Jon just in case.

I said 100 years because in the Dunk and Egg books, which are i think about 80 years before AGOT, Dunk says the knight he was squiring for saw the last dragon, so maybe not 100 years. I'd say maybe 125-140 depending on the knight's age when he saw it and when he died.

[sebitapincha]

I understand what you are saying but some people won't.

Everything goes back to the fandoms love for Rhaegar, Jon and Lyanna at times.

To some, Rhaegar and Lyanna can do no wrong. They are blameless. It was everyone else's fault but never theirs.

Rhaegar is the sad perfect silver-haired prince who plays a harp who is one was one of the top warriors in Westeros. Except he died in his first battle but he still is. Everyone loves him except for that stupid Brandon and horrible Robert. His own wife is just so willing to accept whatever he wants and does because he is the Bestest Greatest prince ever who has never had any true responsibilities that we know of.

Lyanna the 15 year old She-Wolf. She does whatever she wants. She's willful, impulsive and strong. She didn't mean for people to get hurt except any smart person would know that there was a chance of conflict. Maybe not a full scale war but something.

I do wonder if these two weren't very attractive. If Rhaegar was a sad ugly guy and Lyanna wasn't attractive if these two would get the same praise.

I mean if other people had done what they did. Some of the praisers would destroy them. Let's not forget their lovely offspring...

Jon. This guy is The Prince who was promised, Azor Ahai, Head of the Dragon, King of the Iron Throne. King in the North. He will have both a dragon and a direwolf. He is also the Blue Rose. The people are just gonna hand him the throne because he doesn't want it but he will be forced to take it because he is the best. Except what if he was a terrible King. It doesn't mattter because it's Jon Starkgaryen.

We aren't arguing that Rhaegar and Lyanna are perfect and completely blameless for the war. Just whether they got married or not.

[Petyr Patter]

1. Within the 7 kingdoms, no individual has practiced polygamy openly in the times of the novels.
   
2. The Targaryens in the past did so, but pretty much abandoned the practice. They did continue the practice of wedding brother and sister, though Aegon the Unlikely seams to have set the family on the path to abandon this as well, with Aerys and his sister being wed only because a seer said so.
   
3. Marriage is a social institution. It doesn't really matter if two individuals think they are married, what matters is the rest of society believe they are married.
   
4. Even if Rhaegar and Lyanna had a marriage ceremony, it is on incredibly grey territory. Clearly what the Targaryens got away with the past is a moot point, since they can't even stay kings, much less kings who flaunt the laws of gods and men.
   
5. Jon himself would probably not want to claim to be a true born Targaryen on the legality of a polygamy being legal for Targaryens. A man abandoning his wife for a different women? This is what causes bastards to be born, which is a huge sore point for him.
   

[corbon]

1. Within the 7 kingdoms, no individual has practiced polygamy openly in the times of the novels.
   
   
2. The Targaryens in the past did so, but pretty much abandoned the practice. They did continue the practice of wedding brother and sister, though Aegon the Unlikely seams to have set the family on the path to abandon this as well, with Aerys and his sister being wed only because a seer said so.
   
   
3. Marriage is a social institution. It doesn't really matter if two individuals think they are married, what matters is the rest of society believe they are married.
   
   
4. Even if Rhaegar and Lyanna had a marriage ceremony, it is on incredibly grey territory. Clearly what the Targaryens got away with the past is a moot point, since they can't even stay kings, much less kings who flaunt the laws of gods and men.
   
   
5. Jon himself would probably not want to claim to be a true born Targaryen on the legality of a polygamy being legal for Targaryens. A man abandoning his wife for a different women? This is what causes bastards to be born, which is a huge sore point for him.
   

1. Not so far as we've seen. And the Targaryens were always a special case, dragons or not, and we've yet to have a chance to see them in action, so to speak. No point of any value here...

2. Sorry, but this is invention. There is no indication of abandonment, just no immediate practice. The two are not the same. And since GRRM himself has said there may be more cases of Targ polygamy than the ones we know, we don't even know when the last case was.

3. And what society believes or not can change depending n the information it receives.

4. There is no evidence at all that non-Polygamy is a law of gods or men for a start. And at the time we are discussing they were kings, and did flaunt he laws of gods and men (incest) without it being contested anyway.

5. Polygamy is not abandonment, duh. Nor does it create bastards. In fact it is the exact opposite of both those things.

[KingofSothoryos]

I would prefer if they weren't married because I think it's just too convenient. I hope Jon, having grown up a bastard, changes the way Westerosi people feel about bastards and everyone lives happily ever after!

[Spartan64Destiny]

Targaryens practiced polygamy regularly and the Dornishmen race or people were grafted by the Old Valyrians as well, they had very open relationships, it seemed the married couples had their paramours on the side. Wedding one and bedding the other was quite common in Dorne. That's why I think Elia had no hard feelings toward Rhaegar when he presented the Rose of love and beauty to Lyanna at tourney, thereafter ran off with her.

[Barty]

Targaryens practiced polygamy regularly and the Dornishmen race or people were grafted by the Old Valyrians as well, they had very open relationships, it seemed the married couples had their paramours on the side. Wedding one and bedding the other was quite common in Dorne. That's why I think Elia had no hard feelings toward Rhaegar when he presented the Rose of love and beauty to Lyanna at tourney, thereafter ran off with her.

Actually GRRM has made it plain that Dorne actually was plenty pissed off at Rhaegar - which is why they held back their strength for much of the war and only sent a portion of it when forced to do so.

[Barty]

And for a second I thought this is about ASOIAF and its plot. And look at that, it's about M word, sexist writing and empowerment of women...

Come on, guys... If you have arguments to use against the theory, by all means do it, but these, "it would be sexist" arguments are unproductive and lastly never brings anything good...

The only arguement against this theory is why?? Lyanna does not want to marry Robert because he would not be faithful, yet she goes on to willingly marry a married man?? It makes no sense - but then again she's a teenager (they aren't really known for making logical decisions). Or Rhaegar married her against her will - which is still legal.

[corbon]

Actually GRRM has made it plain that Dorne actually was plenty pissed off at Rhaegar - which is why they held back their strength for much of the war and only sent a portion of it when forced to do so.

Can you supply the quote? I find this sort of thing to be frequently mis-read.

[corbon]

The only arguement against this theory is why?? Lyanna does not want to marry Robert because he would not be faithful, yet she goes on to willingly marry a married man??

The married man is in an arranged marriage without love, polygamy is a legal option, and his other wife cannot have further children at risk of her life. He is actually in a position to be truly faithful.